Hey Folks!
Below you will find a video where I look at the topic of how protein affects the state of ketosis. I lean heavily on this paper:
TL;DR
1-If you are eating a low protein ketogenic diet and getting the results you WANT (cognitive enhancement, improved neurological symptoms, fat loss, performance) good for you, keep doing what you are doing.
2-If you are one of the many people following a low protein keto approach and are gaining weight, losing muscle mass and not feeling great, please check out this video and do something crazy: follow the recommendations for 30 days.
3-As effective and awesome as a ketogenic diet can be some folks are so bastardizing the science that the protein levels of many recommendations are on par with the 30 Bananas A Day approach recommended by the lunatic fringe of Raw Vegans. Really.
I do the best I can to stay professional in this video but kinda lose it a few times. Sorry!
ALSO! If you want a cliff-notes style take-away from the video, here you go.
AND…if you want the most comprehensive course on how to do Keto the right way (includes a 30 day money-back guarantee) check out the Keto Masterclass!
Let’s call a spade a spade. Jimmy Moore is a charlatan…
I’m just making the wacky case for folks to let results speak louder than theory.
And yes.
Why does Dom D’Agostino have two of his books as reference for keto? I’m fairly new but there is so much junk food out there in the way of information and marketing its hard to parse.
Dave
Great video! Pleeeease do a video on Intermittent Fasting and one on Electrolytes!!!!! Definitely two of the other confusing topics in Keto. Thanks!
Excellent video. I had already shifted my protein consumption based on the work of Drs. Bikman and Naiman. You also have done an excellent job on the protein issue. I’m looking forward to your mTOR discussion and hope that you also discuss the impact of resistance training on mTOR.
I just watched your video, “ Keto and Protein: Is it really chocolate cake”. I am in the interesting position of, possibly, having moved from someone who thrived on a relatively low protein keto diet to someone requiring substantially more daily protein. I was a 65-year-old, 444 pound, obese 20-year type 2 diabetic taking 200 units per day of insulin with morning fasting glucose readings usually running 200 or so. I am now, after around 5 1/2 years of keto eating, a fairly healthy recovering diabetic weighing around 255 pounds with typical daily fasting glucose readings in the 80’s.
As the 400+ pound diabetic, under the influence of messrs Phinney, Volek, and Westman, I followed a keto diet with net carbs max 25 g pd and protein typically 75 to 85 grams per day, fat intake set to put total calories per day at around 2000 grams. My frame is husky – high school wrestling weight was 183 pounds the last time I was not overweight (50+ years ago). This approach reduced my insulin dose to zero and my fasting blood glucose to prediabetic levels within a few weeks. Most importantly of all, ketogenic eating turned down my compulsive appetite and avoided repeating one of my previous six 100+ pound yo yo diet weight regains.
Now at 255 pounds, after 5 1/2 years of keto eating, my metabolism seems to have shifted to require more protein. My food cravings have been telling me that I need more protein. I have gradually moved up to 145 gpd, and may go higher. Keeping net carb grams under 30 pd keeps me in ketosis, verified by occasional BHB blood sticks. I am still very wary of my past compulsive eating episodes, and I am reluctant to give up the ketones as hunger controls. Eating 100 or 125 carb grams of sweet potato or a bowl of spaghetti from Noodles still elevates my blood sugars for 15 to 25 hours, compared to about 3 hours for a metabolically healthy person’s glucose tolerance test to come most of the way back down. I am very much still a “recovering “ diabetic.
Cummins and Gerber noted in their recent book that a pattern like mine is not unusual. A severely insulin resistant person loses weight rapidly and successfully on a classic Phinney-Volek-Westman diet, but eventually becomes more insulin sensitive. Weight loss stalls. To continue losing weight, they need to switch to a weight-loss approach that works for a more metabolically healthy person. I am currently doing occasional fast days and eating at a maintenance level on other days. Tentatively, it is working for me.
All this is confusing. As the 444 pound diabetic losing weight and insulin resistance on a low-protein keto diet, I would have dismissed, and felt threatened by, suggestions that I jack up my protein levels and possibly let my compulsive hunger come back. Now I seem to have turned into someone else, and must continue experimenting and possibly losing control of my weight and health. I look at the ADA protein study you discussed and think that it would have been more helpful to me if they had separate study arms for insulin resistant vs metabolically healthy persons. (Incidentally, as a 70-year old, I look forward to hearing what you say about mTor.)
Oh well. Life is not simple.
Gerald Shea.
5/16/2018
This is fascinating Gerald! I really appreciate you sharing this and PLEASE keep me posted.
Really great perspective. Thank you for sharing
Thanks for posting Robb. (I would like to hear the R version) lol Guys like you always keep me motivated, I have been working on this Paleo/LCHF thing for 10 years or so now and while I am not 100% I have maintained 35lbs (255 to 220) of first year weight loss (mostly fat) and feel pretty good. at 61. Keep up the good work!
Hi Robb thank you for video. I had symptoms you described in video. I was eating 30% bellow ketogains recommendation of protein and could not figure why with all fat I costume I am still hungry. I definitely feel better on more beef. Could you please share your electrolyte intake.
Here you go! https://ketogains.com/2017/06/keto-flu-electrolyte-imbalances/
Oh I did miss this part – “When your insulin levels are very low and stable …”,
I thought since I lifted my carbs to 100g to support muay thai I can slack of on carbs. Dohhhh
Thnx Robb
After hearing from Dr Jack,I’ve been consuming 50+grams of protein early. It’s a good thing. Thanks for your input also.
Great content, as always!
As you said, the problem is not having access to information but to find the right information for your goals!
Would love to hear what you have to say on the topic of intermittent fasting (16:8ish approach).
Thanks a lot for this!
Cheers,
Pedro
Loved your analysis of protein and ketosis
I am attracted to the pulsatile approach to mTor activation as suggested by Ted Naiman Love to learn your take on this vexed issue
Also love to hear your views on fasting There is such an opposing standoff on this
between Phinney and Fung
Cheers from Rainer Down Under
Hello Robb,
Super awesome video, I love the unpacking of information. I just got introduced to you through ketogains and Matthew Standridge. Love your straight forward no BS approach. You now have a new follower. I have been Keto now for 115 days -50lbs and it has been a constant evolution to doing this the best way possible. It has truly changed my life and given me hope for feeling human again. I would love to learn more about fasting and what it has to offer. I will be downloading the podcasts and checking out your content! Thank you what you do!
thanks David!!!
Your information and your master class has been so helpful to me. I’m one of those that started off not willing to pay for the information. I spent two or three hours per day sifting through information and watching you tube videos… luckily I had a friend in your KETOGAINS group willing to answer my questions, clear up contradictions, and guide me a little. Your Master class lines up with a lot of the best info I found, helped me make adjustments that improved my results and explained the “why’s” and “how to” much better. I’m grateful to have found the class.
AWESOME!!!
I would like to see a vlog about fasting, because all I hear, from keto dieters and Keto doctors, is about how important intermittent fasting is to weight loss and also to achieve the health benefits of Keto. The only way I can IF for 16 hours (and that’s my max) is to drink the Bulletproof Coffee for breakfast (the theory being that because the ingredients are 100% fat they don’t affect blood sugars and therefore insulin so drinking them doesn’t break your fast). There’s no way I can fast more than 12 hours (from after supper at around 7pm to 7am the next morning) drinking no calorie fluids. I’m hungry, and if I’m hungry I’m eating. The BPC keeps me full until lunch at noon, and that’s when I eat my first of 2 meals. So, if fasting isn’t that beneficial, I would stop doing it. I’m not even a coffee drinker. I only drink it in the morning now so I can do the BPC thing for my fasting.
Great video Robb. It seems like these days protein is being demonized almost as much as carbs in some circles.
A couple of questions:
1. At what upper end of protein intake does ammonia production and other side effects of protein metabolism become a concern? I used to eat almost 2 lb of meat a day and felt great. I got concerned by some of the discourse around high protein and inflammation, etc. especially since I am trying to recover from a years-long toxic mold exposure. I cut down to 1-1.5 lb meat a day and bumped up fat/carbs (either one depending on the day but not both) and felt good for a couple of weeks initially but find myself craving more meat and protein again.
2. What do you think of a weekly protein fast day in which one keeps protein intake <15-25 g? The proponents say it boosts autophagy.
#2 is much easier: Great idea. This is actually smart to day the day before ahard training session as we tend to see better nutrient partitioning and anabolism in the subsequent day (assuming adequate food).
#1- No idea. It’s almost impossible to force people into too much protein intake other than quasi starvation scenarios. There have been massive over feeding studies and folks just lose fat and gain muscle!
Where’s the chocolate cake recipe?
Any thoughts on low vs high protein keto for a weight-class athlete who is already kinda (13%bf) lean, in the final two weeks or so of cutting?
PSMF (protein sparing modified fast!)
Thank you Robb for this presentation, always felt that the 10-20% protein recomendation is strange,
Have done If a bit and got no problem with 24 hour fasts or longer but wonder about the actual benefits of this? I am not overweight and have never been, just trying to get healthier and fitter (wich probably means a little more muscle in my case). Would love to hear your thoughts on IF and training. You hear a lot that IF and fasted workouts raise HGH and Testosterone and that it would actually be helpful in building muscle. So would be great with a piece or presentation on the pros and cons of IF in the context of training and potential health benefits of an occassional fast.
Thanks!
Next on the list!
Wow, well that was very eye opening. I often find myself chasing the keto fairy in trying to get my ketones into a .5 or above reading as they seem to sit at .4 as well. I occasionally fast for 24 hours to 40 hours with bi-yearly water fast of 5 days – reaching a ketosis reading of around 4.2. However, after watching your latest video (Ive also read both your books) I’m very interested in your thoughts on fasting – both intermittent and multi-day – and whether that is in fact necessary for achieving apoptosis or even longevity. As you pointed out, there is so much information available on the inter-webs that it’s becoming extremely difficult to decipher. Thanks again for always being a beacon of logic and helping those of us who care about our heath cut through the BS. I’ll be signing up for your master class. Cheers.
I was previously on a high-protein (250g/day+) diet, first in keto-land with an all-meat/carnivore approach, then I introduced carbs according to the 7-day carb test with a CGM. I didn’t really feel good on any of those approaches and my blood glucose, hunger and energy levels were all over the place. Constant brain fog, basically. I measured my ketone levels and barely registered around 0.4-0.5.
I then decided to go all-in on a ketogenic approach, and for about a week I was around 150g of protein per day, with fats around the 75%+ range.
I was also intrigued and inspired by Keto Savage (Robert Sikes) and a 3-month experience with various protein:fat ratios, where both him and his friend felt the best at with a quite moderate protein intake but fats at 78-82%, and the worst with protein at approx 1.2g/lbs.
http://ketosavage.com/danny-vega-3-month-hypertrophy-experiment/
(Can be found on YouTube as well)
I felt amazing! Blood sugar levels stable, ketones from 0.8-1.5.
This also within an eTRF context, as I know you are also doing with great success 🙂
I have since increased protein, closing in on 200g just to see what happens. I ran out of ketone strips for my Precision Xtra monitor, so I don’t have ketone measurements readily available.
On training days, I feel ok – on rest days, that protein level seems to bring back the brain fog.
Thoughts?
the numbers look good at a macro level and the most important thing is it appears to be getting you to your goal!
I’ll be starting this week with what you suggested. I’ll give some feedback my previous diet always makes me hungry all the time.
Keep me posted!!
Your information and your master class has been so helpful to me.
Super awesome video,I’ll be starting this week.
Awesome!!
Excellent video. This finally brought me to the realization I need to up my protein consumption in order to gain muscle mass. Keto effectively helped me lose 30 pounds, but after having done so, I realized I wasn’t able to put on muscle.
Your video just told me why.
Thanks, and I look forward to your future tutorials on various subject matter.
I like bed this as I’ve always struggled with the morning sea of having to eat more fat!
I would love to hear more about your thoughts on fasting. Thanks so much for sharing you knowledge Rob!!
Thanks for this post! And thanks for ask that you do bring a science based approach to paleo/Keto diet communities.
Hi Robb,
As always, great information, loved your book Wired to Eat. I would love to hear what you have to say about IF. I’m 30 days into keto and loving it (using a paleo/keto approach and keeping total carbs under 20g) but i’m hungry in the mornings. I’ve read that IF will eventually become the natural thing to come and I should not worry about it before becoming fat adapted. Would love to hear your thoughts. Also, I’d love to hear what you think about calories in/ calories out on keto and how much calorie counting could help with the goal of losing excess fat.
Thanks and I just think you are the best!!
Meghan
The study is flawed if the purpose is to show possible effects of gluconeogenisys. The human body needs to about 30 gm a day of essential amino acids. The results are exactly as expected based on other research. As you admit in the video, people eat way more than 23 gm of protein diet a day in the study. I’d like to see the study performed in the fasting state, and consumes > 200 gm of protein a day, and see the results. I totally agree that some people eat too little protein because of the fear of gluconeogenisys, but I also know some guys who eat massive amounts of meat and can’t get in ketosis. I think the fear of too much protein keeping you out of ketosis is because of EXCESSIVE protein (too much than the body could possibly use). What does the human body do when it has more protein than it possibly use?
Meat is acidic, and to balance pH the body pulls calcium out of the bones. So I would counsel against an all meat or heavy meat diet. Of course, low protein is not good. There has to be a happy middle for people. I find one serving of meat twice a weak works for me. My other sources are 2 eggs per week and vegetable sources (greens, nuts, lentils, tempeh, etc.) The human body has a long 30 foot digestive tract (in my case 40 feet b/c I have tortuous colon) and is not designed to handle putrifying meat without a lot of fiber and staying hydrated to move it along. Tigers have much shorter tracts, less than 10 feet. My bowels move well and often; however, if I eat a lot of meat, I definitely feel full, satisfied and pack weight on.
Good Info Rob,
I always wonder about people that eat one meal a day. I’m assuming that they try to cram too much protein in one meal. Which brings me to my question how much can you have per meal?
Thanks,
Jochen
For sure would be interested is a piece on intermittent fasting / fasting / and time restricted eating. I could probably be a poster child for some of the things you discussed in the video. I had some instant success with keto and weight loss however, I wonder how much of that may have been lean muscle mass. I am confident that I have been too focused on fat grams first, protein second. Last couple of months have been frustrating not knowing what nerd knob to turn for continued progress.
I would love be to get your expert opinion on IF!!
Hey, Robb! Greetings from Shasta Lake!
After reading your second book (we have enjoyed both), Wired to Eat, I started the keto diet on April 16th. Since then, I have lost about 25 pounds of fat and gained about 3 pounds of muscle mass (down from 207 lbs to 185) and I am currently at about 20% bf according to caliper measurements. I have also been able to drop all my diabetes meds (type 2) since June 10th, with fasting blood sugar levels in the 110 mg/dl range.
Can you offer any advice about adjusting my macros to mantain my bf percent after I reach my goal of 15%? I realize that I most likely have to maintain some sort of keto diet from here on out if I want to stay in diabetic remission.
I have also been fortunate in that I have inspired my wife and some friends to join me in this quest for a healthier lifestyle. 🙂
Thank you for any advice you might have.
Yours in health,
Dennis
Robb,
Thanks again for your informative information that always lets us look at new angles on the macronutrients we are trying so hard to balance on a personal basis.
Thanks for this, shared….
hows your nicotine experiments going?
I agree there’s a lot of confusion on protein, and you make some valid points. Ketosis definitely does not equal weight loss. I couldn’t agree more. But unless you’re young and insulin sensitive, you won’t get much above 1.5mmol consuming lots of animal protein, especially if you’re not fasting. Second, observationally, people who consume more than the RDI of protein through meat, lead shorter lives. Whether you blame mtor, igf, observational studies being crap, or whatever, but it’s been observed in just about every major study on diet, that top tier meat eaters tend to die young.
I found this today looking for a Keto chocolate cake recipe. 😂 why does this article connect Keto diet to low protein? A Keto diet includes moderate protein, not low. It’s that kind of misinformation that scares people off Keto.