Here is episode 28 for your enjoyment!
Download a transcript of Episode 28
- Experience with Adrenal Fatigue
- Cod Liver Oil
- Carb Intake & Cortisol Levels
- Digestive Enzymes
- Low Carb
- Paleo Newbie
- Fasting & Cortisol
Show Notes: The_Paleolithic_Solution_Episode_28
Mike Kesthely says
Podcasts kickass, the questions rocks, and your book is pre-ordered via Amazon.
Question: Pretty much every “Greens” powdered food supplement I’ve come across contains both sources of grains (barley, oat, wheat grass) and soy, be it lecithin or soy sprout. What are your thoughts on these ingredients, even in trace amounts, and these products, overall?
Robb Wolf says
Not a fan of the grain-extracts. There are grain-free forms.
When you were listing the book recommendations you said “what to eat and when”. Is that a book title? Amazon has a 1946 book by Clark with that title. I also found another book titled “what to eat and why” by Planck.
Robb Wolf says
I was not referencing that book. sounds intriguing.
I believe you both have referenced ortho adapt in previous podcasts. I was wondering, what was the typical dosage you experienced. Is it ramped up similar to the fish oil and digestive enzymes depending on how banged up you are??
Robb Wolf says
I;ve rolled at 6 caps in two divided doses. good stuff. Take with food.
Topic- Saturated Fat
Gary Taubes excerpt reads of animal fat is- 51% monounsaturated, of which 90% is oleic acid. Saturated Fat is 45% of total fat, 1/3 of that is stearic acid, which will raise HDL with no effect on LDL (stearic acid is metabolized to oleic acid). The remaining 4% is polyunsaturated, which lowers LDL with no effect on HDL.
Can you explain how the saturated fat component effects the body and if grain fed vs. grass fed saturated fat is different. (other than there just being more of it in grain fed animals). What about the other 2/3 of the saturated fat?
It would seem from an evolutionary standpoint that the fat from wild/grass fed animals would be our best source of fat period.
Obviously we did not process plants into oils back in the day, therefore plant fat sources were never consumed in large quantities.
This is a response to last week’s–Thanks for answering my questions (on ketone breath on sleep deprivation). Re. Sleep deprivation–I definitely wasn’t considering it as a training regimen; I definitely get sidelined whenever I pull an all-nighter. The cortisol spike makes sense. I am looking forward to incorporating more post-workout carbs (yam/sweet potato) into my postworkout meal to cure the breath, and I’m sure my fiancee is looking forward to that, as well.
I will buy Robb’s new Paleo book, but only if it is entitled Hungry Like The Wolf.
Robb Wolf says
Most of the big book dealers hate my attempts at branding as it is…this does not bode well!
Doesn’t Cordain know that some people don’t convert beta-carotene to vitamin A? 43% of the population probably have this genetic variation.
Robb Wolf says
Can you throw up a link on this, sounds interesting.
Two reasons I love Tuesdays: Lost & this Podcast.
thanks for another amazing podcast! I loved your answer to the question about low-carb diets. Sometimes it’s hard to deal with information that is oversimplified even when you are a novice at the subject because it just doesn’t ring true or is contradictory on some level. Your answer really shed some light on stuff I was confused about.
Great work on the pod casts and blog posts. I have adopted not only paleo life style but also the anti-gluten life style. My friends think I’m slightly off my rocker and one friend in particular sent me this article. I did my best to argue the headaches to the carb withdrawals. I argued that I have gone gluten free and know how it effects me when I do get some and that alone tells me there is something wrong. I know it’s hard for people that haven’t tried to avoid gluten to understand how it effects how you “look, feel and perform.” I was wondering, what’s your out look on this article.
I’d like to second Ross’ request for a revised book title and add a subtitle:
The Paleolithic Solution: Hungry Like the Wolf
-Norcalories, Strength and Conditioning
Robb Wolf says
You guys are worse marketers than me. That’s saying a lot.
Cheers for picking up on my question (Paleo Newbie) i have two of the book already mentioned so I might treat myself and get another. So from my birthday which was 8th of May I have been complete no paleo feel like s**t and get a nice bloted belly for show.
So ill be back in the game from next week (payday) and cant wait
Keith Norris says
Heh, you’re spot-on, Robb, with the observation that Lyle McDonald was oh so close in getting his diet recommendations right. I’ll never know why he just didn’t yield to the overwhelming evidence and redirect his recommendations. For some reason, though, he just had a hard-on for proving Taubes wrong. WTF?? Hey, he didn’t even have to say that Taubes was 100% right (he wasn’t), but he damn sure eagled the hole. Now LM and his minions just come across as the the dietary equivalent of the Flat Earth Society.
BTW, if you guys get a chance would you mind posting a link to the Lindberg (sp?) study that was alluded to in the podcast? Thanks! (I think I’m spelling his name wrong & therefore can’t track this study down).
Robb Wolf says
I think this is the kitava study you are looking for:
I freaking LOVE the whole flat-earth analogy, I pull it out on select folks:
Rod Milking says
..just a little (re-…did it 5 years ago)experiment i’ve been conducting since re-reading Good Cals Beastie Cals and the bit about rats and macronutrs and even though only done for a week it the effects have been radical.
So make soup out of lettuce, celery..owt low carb and add..about 1000 cals worth of sat fat primarily.
Scoff that and am so stuffed i don’t eat til din-dins whence i eat and nicely lot of protein and some veggies as per usual.
Also seems to have increased strength much and though seldom weight myself el jeans are getting substantially looser.
More than one to skin…a carrot !
Thought you’d be interested in this ted talk, it is basically about “Can we eat to starve cancer?” and he looks at how they limit angiogenesis. The list all the food that they are looking at and the majority, with the exception of soybeans and a few others, are very paleo.
Just a question though, saying you go to the extreme in eating these “anti-angiogenesis” would it have any affect on the bodies ability to heal from both working out and cuts etc.
Robb, thanks for including my question! (adrenal fatigue)
You pretty much hit the nail on the head, as I’ve always been someone who overbooks my schedule, trains too hard, and tries to fit 25 hours of stuff in a 24 hour day. Eventually it catches up with me and I either crash for a day or 2, get sick, or end up getting hurt.
I’ve been getting much smarter with the training, switched to CFFB about 4x a week and been feeling awesome with that. Also been tailoring the volume a bit more based on my schedule with my day job and training clients at night, and how my sleep has been.
Now I just need to do better at leaving more free time in my schedule.
Thanks for your insights and for sharing your experience with the same isssues. Great podcast and enjoy Belize!
Cody – this reminds me of a recent interview I saw – the woman being interviewed was doing Paleo
“So how do you get any carbs if you don’t eat grains?”
Duh – it’s at though people have forgotten that fruit and veggies are also carbs.
My experience with clients is that when they go paleo (or even Zone) regular headaches simply disappear.
Here is an interesting link to a Gastroenterologist and pediatric doctor and allergy specialist – his studies show that 1 in 10 people react to gluten and it is measureable.
He is now advocating for a gluten free planet!
I think Keith was talking about the paleo diet clinical trial you were talking about in the podcast done by Staffan Lindeberg where they compare type II diabetics eating paleo and eating a mediterranean type diet. I did some searching and think I found it (that is an awesome study btw)
BTW another awesome podcast, and I think the “Hungry Like The Wolf” title is the tops!
I forgot to add, I would like to see a controlled study where they test a diet consisting of the same calorie/protein/fat/carb amounts and ratios with a paleo foods diet vs a diet including grains/legumes/dairy and see what effect that has.
Eric D says
Quick question Robb,
Say somebody is eating a lower carb paleo, i.e. protein, fat, and veggies each meal, how many g carbs should one be aiming for after a more metabolic workout? (thinking BJJ here) I have been reading a lot on other sources such as Lyles who advocates up to 1.5g/bw carbs over a day (most PWO-so like 100g) which is a TON and overkill esp. if you consider getting this all from paleo food sources.
If goal is maintaining performance how many g/ carbs would a 180 pound body need to recover gycogen stores from longer met-con style workouts (or BJJ, boxing, MMA, etc)?
Also, do you have any take on Mcdonalds suggestions of “refeeds” to set on hormonal changes when people metabolisims start to slow fro dieting. These refeeds usually are to the bell of 300-500 carbs, 1g/bw, and under 50g fat in a 5 hour window, ontop of normal food consumption of that day. He also suggests this really helps maintain performance while cutting weight (low cal/carb day followed by “refeed day”)
Looking forward to thoughts!
Robb Wolf says
I just see a huge spread on this. Some folks do GREAT on virtually no carbs (Steve Maxwell for example) other folks need more. It really depends on training volume, intensity etc. I like the re-feed idea. changing things up dramatically makes sense, especially when tinkering with very low BF levels.
Give this a looksie, very insightful:
Great podcast guys, PLEASE keep it up!
Do you recommend the NOW foods super enzymes to someone who is not really pursuing mass gain but only better digestion? To those who want to get started on the NOW foods super enzyme, how many should be taken a day? One with every meal? Two? BTW – I’m confused as to what is this ‘warm’ feeling talked about in the podcast…
Again, awesome podcast. Always serves as a nice break from the books to hear more about ‘psuedo-science’!
Robb Wolf says
Yes, they are a great digestive support.
Matt C says
Thanks so much for taking my question (fasted training and cortisol). Your explanation of the cortisol mechanism was excellent. Seems like the primary take-away is to focus on more sleep. It’s funny, I’m willing to work hard in the gym and stay pretty strict with nutrition, but when it comes to sleep it’s easy to be lazy (which I find to be more than a little ironic). But I’m going to give it a shot for 30 days, in bed by 9, hopefully it sticks.
Interesting you mentioned MEBB too, because our gym has started to take a look at some of the alternative programming methods, specifically OPT’s stuff. Looks good and I look forward to its implementation (especially more strength training… gotta do something about these T-Rex arms).
Also, don’t know if you saw it already, but Martin Berkhan posted a protocol for early morning fasted training http://leangains.blogspot.com/2010/05/early-morning-fasted-training.html Basically, 10g BCAAs Pre-WO and then 10g every other hour until the first meal. I’ve got a 9 week supply of BCAAs, so I’ll give it a try for that long and see how it goes. My only concern is the insulinogenic effect of liquid protein, but Martin addresses that, saying high-intensity work causes increased insulin sensitivity Post-WO, mitigating the insulin-spiking nature of protein shakes (in these small amounts). Thoughts?
Thanks again for your answer and for all your work sharing your knowledge. I look forward to the book… especially if you can work “Hungry Like the Wolf” in there. Cover Art idea: http://www.everythingwolf.com/shop/productimages/howling.jpg
Robb Wolf says
Killing me with the cover art!! Will tackle the rest in the podcast!
Bryan T says
Robb- Amazon Kindle edition of your book. Push your publisher to make it happen! It seems like the primal blue print and other paleo books have been mad successful on the Kindle.
Robb Wolf says
Loved the discussion about cortisol and fasted training. I work with people with non-insulin dependent diabetes and have found an interesting conundrum that physiologists, physicians and others dispute – that their blood glucose RISES after morning workouts (typically of the bootcamp or step aerobics variety). I assert (after a lengthy internet search) that cortisol, DHEA, and insulin (sensitivity, not total amount) is the culprit. Same individuals could do a walk in the morning and BG still rises, just not as much. Evening workouts don’t yield a trend, sometimes BG will fall (as is normally expected), sometimes it doesn’t.
What else do you suggest might be at work? Total calories, too few or too many? Macronutrient ratio? Mineral deficiency? or just an idiopathic SOL situation?
Robb Wolf says
it may be quite complex but it maps the effects of cortisol/adrenaline pretty closely. Since these individuals lack normal insulin production they do not shut off hepatic glucose secretion. It’s an interesting exclusion of high intensity exercise being “healthy”.
I couldn’t find a link to the study on Vit D, Vit A, and upper respiratory tract infections in the show notes. Did I miss the link or would you mind posting it to the comments? Thanks.
Robb Wolf says
Here is on on URI’s and vit-d:
I’ll get the one on vit A inhibiting vit D. Belezian internet is SLOW.
Robb, thanks for the podcast. I really enjoy what you are doing for the paleo community.
As for the cod liver oil discussion, you made a statement about the fact that our ancestors probably got most of their vitamin A from beta-carotene and not retinol. As we all know (and you mentionned it), liver is a great source of retinol (Vit A). It seems to me that hunter gatherers would have eaten liver on a regular basis which means that the bulk of their vitamin A would come from retinol. It’s basicly a ”natural multivitamins”. On what facts does Cordain base his opinion ? Would you happen to have a reference too?
It does not seems right to me.
Thanks again, and keep up the good work.
Robb Wolf says
will look at this later. Many cultures, such as the inuit however, actively avoid the liver of animals such as polar bear due to toxicity issues.
You often discuss the fact that fructose preferentially fills liver glycogen and glucose preferentially fills muscle glycogen, prompting you to suggest that a glycogen dependent athlete eat some yams or sweet potatoes in the post workout window as opposed to fruit. I have implemented this in my training as a basketball player and I have seen great results, but I was wondering what effect sucrose has on liver/muscle glycogen stores in the post workout window?
Robb Wolf says
Sucrose is 50% fructose, not a favorable source. I have an interesting post on this topic coming.
Here’s my latest thyroid update, or should I call this “my sucky thyroid won’t play ball”
After being strictly paleo for another 2 months, getting prescription vitamin D to up my D levels, and taking suggested supplements nothing has changed.
Went to the doctor as it’s now visibly enlarged (it wasn’t 2 months ago). Thyroid anti-bodies still at pretty much the same levels. TSH rising further – now 13mIU/L (was 11 in March) ideal, 0.3 – 4.0.
Free T3 and T4 in low normal range, so no other physical symptoms as yet.
Here’s my take on this – I’ve probably had high anti-bodies for many years, but only now (at 50) is my thyroid wearing out, maybe too much damage?.
Given eating paleo has cured every other niggling issue – I know that it is working for my body, I’ve now been doing it for a year and none of the issues I had that used to come and go on the Zone have reappeared.
All my other blood tests by the way are perfect, B12 , folic acid right at top end, CRP lowest possible, DHEA & cortisol all good etc.
I’d love to know if there is anything else I can do? I’m seeing the specialist soon and I guess they’ll do a scan.
Robb Wolf says
I’ll think on this but it’s getting outside my wheel-house. My only other thought is looking at other gut-irritants, goiterogens like cruciferous veggies, heavy metal issues. Still on vacation…I will put more thought to this when I get home.
I’m just about through the Taubes book. Can you or anyone else comment on which bits you think he got wrong?
Interesting and good read!
Nicole Johnson says
I got an email from amazon this morning recommending your book, way to go! I can’t wait to read it!
Robb Wolf says
Mark R. says
I’m getting back into consistent lifting (a mix of CFE, 5/3/1, and short met-cons) and consistent Paleo eating on June 6 (studying for a big test on June 5 sucks up all my time until then). I will do a weighed and measured 18 block Paleo-Zone approach with about 10-13 blocks of my carbs being yams/fruit, eaten around my workouts (the primary goal is leaning out, I’m planning on keeping the carbs up to match my workouts). I will adjust the 18 block straight up approach if it doesn’t seem to be working after a month.
While I am going to track my weight, performance, measurements, and generally how I feel, I thought it would be good to check how stuff is doing on the inside, so I booked a check-up with my PCP for June 16 (the earliest he had). In listening to you and others, I am going to request a Vitamin-D profile, Hb1Ac, C-reactive protein, and an LDL density profile. I don’t know if he’ll run all that but if it ends up working out, am I missing anything else that would be helpful to see? Since I will be full-on Paleo for only 10 days when I go, I’m planning on doing a follow-up in September to see how much things change. I’m sorry, I know you have covered this before. As always, thanks for doing what you do!
Mark R. says
Adding on after listening to your part on “why are you doing this?” I am doing this because due to work and study schedules, I have not been able to fully immerse myself into Paleo and Crossfit since learning about them in 2006. The last time that I was able to workout consistently was in high school (graduated in 2002 and spent much of college rehabbing high school injuries) and I’ve never actually held onto good Paleo eating week-in, week-out. My current level of performance is a result of the football training that I did high school, that’s about it. Essentially, while I want to lean out, the ultimate goal is to become the best athlete that I can and I think leaning out will naturally come along for the ride. My definition of athlete is pretty much the Crossfit definition, good at everything with no specialization. Specific goals – strength (bench press 1.5 x body weight, chin-up +0.5 x body weight, squat 2 x body weight, and deadlift 2.5 x body weight), endurance (sub 20 minute 5k, sub 4.8 40-yd dash, complete the Boston marathon), and I think it would be cool to be able to walk on my hands for say 20 yards. I don’t have any Crossfit benchmark WOD goals. Attaining this broad spectrum may be unrealistic but I’m willing to try. Thanks again Robb, sorry for the long back-to-back comments.
Totally RAW Paleo – http://www.rawpaleoforum.com/. Has anybody been on this forum? Anybody tried this style of Paleo?
Big Easy says
Hey Robb and Andy, Big Easy reporting in from the A.L.B.
I have a question about heavy metal allergies. A client was informed by her doctor that she has a nickel allergy, because of this she not only has to avoid certain jewelry (Not my problem) but also some super healthy foods like Salmon, ShellFish, Sweet Potatoes, carrots, broccoli, etc.
Common sense says: “Ok, we can do this” It wasn’t until the doctor recommended she increase her white bread intake (!!!).
My Question is can we expect to see her return to normal foods after an extended time on the Paleo diet? Also, is there anyway to speed the process along (Supplementation)?
Robb- Have you come across any good literature that you can dig about prevention of male hairloss? I am 23 with a decent set of hair and would like to keep it although its been thinning a bit the pas year. I do a lot of strength based training and sometimes I worry about the elevated testosterone levels impeding hair growth. What do you think?
>>>Heh, you’re spot-on, Robb, with the observation that Lyle McDonald was oh so close in getting his diet recommendations right. I’ll never know why he just didn’t yield to the overwhelming evidence and redirect his recommendations. For some reason, though, he just had a hard-on for proving Taubes wrong. WTF?? Hey, he didn’t even have to say that Taubes was 100% right (he wasn’t), but he damn sure eagled the hole. Now LM and his minions just come across as the the dietary equivalent of the Flat Earth Society.
Bingo.. there is a lot of bitterness over at his forum. So much negativity. I used to hang out there but got tired of him belittling people and calling anyone a “paleotard” who didn’t believe him/Aragon regarding carbohydrates etc. I never even posted on the particular topic over there, but saw numerous threads dedicated to mocking everything Taubes and others wrote about calories in = calories etc. The dogma was just so incredibly entrenched that if you even expressed interest in understanding what GC BC had to say you were jumped on.
Who needs that crap in their life? Much happier lurking around here, panu, hyperlipid etc. Although all this cross-fit jargon bemuses me, coming from a bodybuilder mindset. WOD this, Met-Con that he he (that’s another thing constantly mocked over there) either way, I feel like I must be a rare thing around here – a paleo-eater following a bodybuilding training routine with little regard for all the other crossfit stuff that seems to go along with paleo eating.. But I feel and look so much better eating like this that I’m never going to go back to a high carb/flour/wheat/gluten/sugar based diet even if all that insulin is great for stimulating anabolism.
I am one of your very few listeners (since episode one, located in Australia and China).
Am looking forward to your book, as:
1. I like you personal anecdotes and “Northern California (Chico) type guy” approach – as will many others and to have them in a book mixed with science will be great
2. Your book promises to be a good mixture of science and exercise, from a perspective that is different from, but very practically adds to, Taubes, Cordain, Voleck, Veech, McGruff, Eades, De Vany, Sisson, Briffa, Nora G etc.
3. I keep on listening because: you seem to know your biochem; your thinking is rooted in RCT results, which bear out when checked; you remember and acknowledge the literature; have practical clinical/training experience; and yet you have practical advice. This differentiates you from many in the trainer and medical community.
4. You can very easily develop a niche in much of the Western world – not just in the USA, but also in smaller, but similar, markets such as the UK, NZ and Australia – I will buy your book – I hope you have a broader marketing plan.
5. Need to think about how in the medium term to develop your work in China and India, both of which increasingly have a bunch of middle class folks with all of the neolithic issues arising from recent changes in diet. The very interesting thing about your stuff is that it not only works amongst a small aging sample such as the USA (including Chico), but also potentially in seriously large populations such as India and China.
Have you thought about a China edition of your book and blog?
I asked the digestive enzyme question in episode #28. I thought I should give you an update. I have been on the NOW FOOD super enzymes for a little over two months. I started at 5 pills with each meal and have since dropped down to 4 pills. In the process I have put on 5lbs of lean mass and have been setting PR’s in almost everything that I do. I recently had a fitness evaluation done and had my body fat checked with a bod-pod. I am running at 7.2% body fat at 190lbs (last time I was approx 9% @ 185lbs). Also, I received an invitation to compete in the Southeast Regional next week. So that will be the true test if this has helped my performance.
Thanks for all you do!
Robb re thyroid issues,
I’ve cut out other gut irritants – eggs, nightshades (although I do have a little tomato paste in casseroles maybe once every two weeks)
I have been taking glutamine, thought it was good for my gut – but after what you said re gluten and googled it and found a few people said it played with their thyroid test results – so I’ll cut that.
I’ve thought about the veggies, so far I’ve minimised the broccoli etc. Maybe I’ll try cutting them completely for a bit.
I will talk to my doctor about the heavy metals – he mentioned testing for those.
Another thought – just wondered what you think of this:
“More than adequate or excessive iodine intake may lead to hypothyroidism and autoimmune thyroiditis.”
“In conclusion, 78.3% of patients with hypothyroidism due to Hashimoto’s thyroiditis regained an euthyroid state iodine restriction alone.”
I added kelp tabs when I got diagnosed last year – think I’ll drop them for a while.
Robb Wolf says
150mcg’s should be safe (RDA) but this is certainly something to tinker with.
Any recommendations for finding a good bcaa supplement? Is the 2:1:1 ratio the most important factor?
Scivations Xtend seems legite, do you think its good to go?
Pre-ordered your book at amazon!
Robb Wolf says
I think MRM has a good one? Really not up to date on the different options.
Holy cow. Talk about being over my head. Of course I have heard about paleo and gluten free but some of the other things you are referencing are going over my head. Over the past couple of years I have become intrigued by the body and how it is almost machine like. Feed it the proper fuel and feel and perform much better. You happen to have a reading recommendation for say a beginner? Nice article.
Amy Kubal says
Steve, Pick up a copy of “The Paleo Solution”. It’s Robb’s awesome book – it will give you the basics! Also checkout the FAQ on the site – that’ll be a big help too! If you would like further guidance let me know and I’d be happy to help you! http://robbwolf.com/consulting/amy-kubal-consulting/
Hi Robb, thanks for posting another great and informative chat. Regarding Cortisol levels, Cortisol is a real b*tch. I understand it’s the only hormone to be released by the body which is actually Carcinogenic (please correct me if this is not the case). Have you ever heard of “Cissus Quadrangularis”? It is an African plant which contains properties that can allegedly reduce Cortisol and raise DHEA levels. It is also supposed to aid muscle and ligament repair.