Back with Episode 29. Per Robb’s request here again is the link to the ever famous “NorCal Nutrition: Are We Crazy” post.
Download a transcript of Episode 29
Have a great week!
- Length of time to heal leaky gut? / Digestive enzymes / Inert supplement ingredients
- Leaning out
- Adrenal fatigue – Sodium intake / Meal frequency
- Intermittent fasting
- Nutrition sciences
- Hard gainers
- Greek yogurts / Probiotics / Stomach Cramps
- Train like the animal you are?
Show Notes – The_Paleolithic_Solution_Episode_29
Haha! I got Robb to talk about theoretical physics for three minutes on a nutrition podcast!
For (LA) the hard-gainer – I don’t know if this could be an issue, but his digestion and nutrient absorption may still not be up to par. The beans could still be inflaming his gut, impairing absorption of the food he’s eating. Also, he might try the digestive enzymes, because he might not be digesting the protein well enough. Just some thoughts on other stuff that might be factors in his inability to gain weight, even with the GOMAD thing going on.
OMG please don’t use physics as your example. It suffers from the same, and even worse, problems than Nutrition Science. Quantum Mechanics & the gravity premise is the fat hypothesis of disease of physics. Dude, for reals, I think Gary Taubes even wrote a book about it.
Thanks for the podcast. This felt like your strongest yet to me. Particularly your restatement of the paleo syllogism
a) Nutrition is a subfield of biology.
b) “Nothing in biology makes sense except for through the lens of evolution.”
c) Evolutionary nutrition.
Was as concise and persuasive as I’ve ever heard it said.
It think this is an interesting study from Harvard:
“In a new study, researchers from the Harvard School of Public Health (HSPH) have found that eating processed meat, such as bacon, sausage or processed deli meats, was associated with a 42% higher risk of heart disease and a 19% higher risk of type 2 diabetes. In contrast, the researchers did not find any higher risk of heart disease or diabetes among individuals eating unprocessed red meat, such as from beef, pork, or lamb. This work is the first systematic review and meta-analysis of the worldwide evidence for how eating unprocessed red meat and processed meat relates to risk of cardiovascular diseases and diabetes.”
I have no fat multipliers. I have heard Robb say in the past that a zone prescription with half the carbs and substituted fat will lean you out quickly. So if I limit calorie intake, or if I don’t eat fat with carbs, when do I eat my fats?
Quick Question for you or anyone else who may be able to help!!!!
I have been searching the internet to find a Ketogenic Diet Meal Plan to follow.. All I want/need is just a simple list of of proteins and fats I should eat during the week.. then Im going to “carb load” on the weekend with tons of veggies, yams, squash etc.. and keep the fats moderate so that I don’t go way over my calorie #.
I typically eat 3 meals a day.. sometimes 2 or 4 depending if im inter. fasting.. Cut out all nuts as of now.. but I am struggling to find different fat sources.. and how to eat them with this diet.. I love avocados but can’t eat to many because of the carbs, olive oil on salads is a go to but again… cutting back on the salads during the week. Any thoughts? PLEASE HELP!!
Books, articles, menus.. etc would be so helpful.. or even just examples of what you have done.. I dont really eat for flavor .. my meals are very boring and bland but thats the way I like it!! Chicken and an avocado… steak and coconut oil on a spoon!
clif harski says
I’d like to hear your thoughts on Poliquin’s cleanse that he is blogging about on his website. I’d love to get my hands on all the aminos he’s popping everyday!! Without counting, i’m estimating well over 200 pills a day.
Hi Rob, Maybe I missed promo’s on your site but, Amazon today has your new book on sale (ie as on order). Been doing paleo style down under in Oz for nearly 10 years and am looking forward to reading your book. OB.
PS link that got me there is below:
Regarding IFing and grazing.. I used to be a constant grazer too – back when I ate a lot of simple carbs there seemed to be no other choice.
In my own experience, low-carb paleo and fasting are a marriage made in heaven since the lack of blood sugar swings provides for effortless transitions in and out of fasting windows. For example, today I got distracted and forgot to eat at 16 hours and ended up going to 18 before I started my eating window. Needless to say, such a thing would have never ever happened back when I was consuming an old-school traditional grazing bodybuilding diet.
When you experience what I call “blood sugar hunger” as opposed to “fat burning hunger” fasting is indeed miserable and stressful. If a person can get their carb intake very low for a while before dipping into fasting I think it goes much easier. I did for me and my wife. Not being food obsessed anymore like a starving dog is so liberating. Fasting makes me feel like my mind is in control of my body, not vice versa.
Incidentally, I am currently as strong as ever on 2 hearty paleo meals per day with a 16 hour average fast time. Have dropped 24lbs in 2 months. I don’t do any cardio at this point since my lower caloric intake, fasting, and heavy lifting is enough stress on the body as is. I can see how someone doing a lot of “met-con” as you folks call it could wipe themselves out by adding excessive fasting. Even still.. My guess is that a once-monthly 24 hour fast to get a little autophagy going might do a lot of people some good. Robb would you agree or not?
PS: Thanks for the questions answered in the podcast! FYI, I’m now down to 2 diet cokes a day.. not ideal yet, but far better than I was doing back in the old days 🙂 especially considering the amount of crap I used to eat.
Looking forward to your book!
re: Q8 from Nainoa. Robb, you gave me the same sound advice in Podcast 13 and its done me the world of good. Sticking to CF Football type WODS for the most part is where my sweetspot is, have been progressively dialling UP the weights used during metco style WODS, keeping time domain down to the sub 15 min mark for the most part, running confined to sub 400M type stuff exclusively and putting my primary focus on getting stronger. Feel better, look bigger, have PR’d in Jerk (308), Power Clean (315), Back Squat (420) and Front Squat (340) in the past 5 months or so. Probably hit that long time domain once or twice a month (total sessions per month usually around 12-15) and dont feel like I have lost much in that arena to be honest. For me, I could have carried on beating the hell out myself TRYING to change myself into a “distance” type athlete, but it just aint worth the trade off. Now I happily cruise around lifting as heavy as I can, eating as much meat as I can and generally smiling a lot. Nainoa, execute on your DNA dude, you can have all the running, swimming, jumping, balancing stuff etc PLUS a big lick of strength, power and plenty of endurance if you play to your strengths.
Tyler from FFT says
Got another question about lactose… I am still rocking on with the mass gain cycle and whole milk, moving from about 170# in early March at sectionals to about 185-190# currently. Showing awesome gains across all lifts (snatch has gone from 185# to 210#!). Anyway… enough boasting… As I stated in my last post to you about the lactase enzyme supplements… I am semi lactose intolerant… however I chose to use dairy to put on some weight. I seem to notice that if I drink milk on an empty stomach or with a meal it just destroys my stomach… no matter what…. However, if I manage to chug the stuff down within 30 minutes after training… voila!… no irritation! I can drink seemingly unlimited amounts of milk post workout with no problem at all.
Since lactose is a sugar, are my muscles/liver stealing this stuff away before it has a chance to affect my gut? Why am I able to tolerate milk after training? What is the mechanism behind this?
Oh and do you know this guy?
I feel like you guys were separated at birth or something.
Keep fighting the good fight!
OK, I’m starting to feel bad for the “Lean Gains Guy.” For future reference, his last name is Berkhan. Once again, great podcast. I can’t wait for your book! I already pre-ordered it. That qualifies me for a free contraband Crossfit Nor Cal t-shirt, right? ; )
Rich Stolz says
I’ve got a question: I had yucca root for the first time from this Caribbean restaurant here in New Orleans – it was amazing! I’m having trouble finding any info on it though. Where as my usual post workout yams have a GI of 75-ish, it looks like yucca root has a GI of around 55. I imagine that my frying it in pig fat will help drop this a little more. Any thoughts on yucca?
Rob E says
I know you are not a fan of “liquid” meals, but every now and then I like a shake post wod. it is easier than trying to bring a sweet potatoe, and easier to get down. I dont like all of the ingredients in any commercially available protein powder, so I was wondering what you thought of my homemade brew.
6 tbsp egg white powder (from Roseacre Farms, aprox 30 g protein), half can of cocoanut milk, tbsp of cocoa powder and a half tsp of cinamon with enough water to make 16 to 20 oz. it actually doesnt taste half bad, and if I am shot from the wod, I can get it down without too much trouble.
TESTIFYIN’: 8 weeks ago I posted on this very comment board that I had to get off of Diet Coke. And I’ve been off it ever since! So very, very grateful for all the amazing AND FREE info on this site and the podcast. Now that my insulin is under control (via low-carb paleo), I’m convinced that my need for caffeine was just to compensate for the post-carb sleepiness I got after breakfast and lunch. I did have a break-in period of getting used to the taste of water, but having already gone through a transition with the paleo, it really wasn’t any worse than that, and now I love water.
Andy is right, I can’t imagine how bad diet coke would taste now and I’m still amazed at how addicted to it I was. There’s a farmer in the movie Food, Inc. who says that customers at farmers markets will balk at his prices while they’re holding a can of soda. It is truly amazing how we are all falling under the spell of, as Robb put it, nefarious companies who have convinced us to consume things that are so radically _not_ food.
Eric D says
I read all through the metabolic diet site you linked for me as well as reading some of DiPasquale’s work and Lyle McDonalds stuff (totally different camp but he is knowledgable) and I am embarking on a little expierment. I am going to continue eaing VLC paleo and start tossing in a mid-week re-feed and a “carb up” on saturday. Wednesday and Saturday are my hardest BJJ workouts. Im keeping cals floating between 1900-2100 during the week (approx 900-700 below maintence) with my only carbs being a bit of greens at lunch and a sweet potato pwo. Im keeping this as paleo as possible so the only grains im going to use during re-feeds or carb days is Organic red Quinoa (plus squash, sweet potato, fruit, etc). Im going to watch what happens to body comp and energy because I have plateaued on weight loss at around 10% and energy has been low. I am weighing most of my food and keeping a daily log of food, energy, mood, and workouts. Well see how it goes, if it works wonders -im hoping-ill include a little more detail.
BTW: hows the book comming along? Got some people here waiting!
Robb Wolf says
Book is making progress. Lots of work but getting there. Let me know how all the tinkering goes.
Hey Robb and Andy,
Thanks for another good podcast. I have a real short and sweet question for you that might involve a bit of a long answer. I eat pretty strict paleo, in the hopes to flip my body composition and reach the ever-illusive “look good naked” status. Eggs, chicken, and green veggies are my mainstay, with different kinds of fish and the occasional beef thrown in now and then. I love spicy foods and in order to keep my pallet tamed, I use a lot of hot sauce on my meals. Almost every meal I find myself reaching a bottle of the stuff to spice things up a bit. The only sauces I use list the ingredients as “peppers, vinegar, and salt.” Is it really that simple? And will the use of these condiments or the ingredients therein slow down my, or any others progress in the quest for rippling abs and a beastly Fran time? And would they lead to any kind of inflammatory or leaky-gut issue? And any info on other sauces or condiments that are safe or dangerous would be much appreciated. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Your 20th listener,
Robb Wolf says
Great question! Will tackle this soon.
I would gladly take $1000 of yours to attempt any study for paleo! (I need something for my MS in Applied Nutrition anyway….)
Rob, Your Jimmy Moore interview was great! Realy liked your “empathic gene” statement in reference to meat quality. Got a roadtrip with my dad and brother tomorrow going to make them listen!
Robb Wolf says
Thanks Warren! Jimmy is a great interviewer.
Who is this Edo that Robb talks about?
Robb Wolf says
that’s IDO. check the blog roll and be amazed!
Podcasts are awesome – the only podcasts I listen to 🙂
I’ve got UC and some leaky gut issues, but these seem to have improved after some hefty glutamine supplementation and a grain free diet.
The problem I have at the moment which is stopping any further healing is what I think is bile acid in the stool. Yellowish colors and burning sensations are common, but I cant find a common factor in what’s causing it.
Do you have any insight on what might be causing this and anything obvious that might help. Ive tried Super Enzymes, but these actually seemed to make the problem worse, which suprised me.
Current nutrition is paleo meals plus whey isolate+coconut milk PWO. Training is pure strength+power no metcon. Managed to gain 5kg in the last month so weight gain isn’t a problem at the moment.
Thanks for any help you can give.
Robb Wolf says
What do you feel like is still a problem?
A testimony to add to your files and a questions.
I’m a Dietitian. I worked with one of my patients who came in with IBS. She had had prior history of some CNS issues and constant joint pain and was taking Naproxen at least 2/day.
I worked with her on a gluten free diet and three weeks later … IBS, Gone. Joint pain, gone. Headaches, gone. Now, she’s only taken 2 naproxen in the past month.
I’m sure that story nothing new to you. But, just wanted you to know that you have more allies than you think affiliated with the ADA.
On to my question. In regards to cycling carbs, using the strategy of putting majority of carbohydrate in postworkout window with some protein and doing pro/fat/low-glycemic veggies other meals …
Assuming you have 50/60g carbs from sweet potato with 30g PRO right after your workout. How long would you want to wait before having your next meal which would be high PRO/FAT and low-glycemic carbs?
E.g. what do you think would be the length of time the body would need to clear glucose/insulin following the post-workout meal before it’d be smart to have a fatty meal again.
Given a goal to increase muscle mass while preventing gain of bodyfat.
Robb Wolf says
I think 45min-1 hr is plenty of time to wait.
thoughts on this robb?
Robb Wolf says
We will look at that one in the podcast!
Thanks Robb, Stationed in Germany now. Looking forward to getting to one of your seminars when I get back stateside. You rock.
I’m 40 years old. I’ve been strict paleo on the VLC-side for two years. I’ve been feeling great all the time, though I’ve suffered a lot of background stress in my life, which may have contributed to less than optimal sleep (though I do tend to sleep until I wake up), and maybe a bit of under-eating, and over-caffeinating. (2-3 double espressos per day)
My workouts consist of a weekly session of De Vany style heavy lifting in a fasted state, daily kettlebell swings for 5 mins, and a long walk every now and then.
I’m lean (I see my abs though nothing remotely like Martin Berkhan). I’m tall, and rather skinny. (I’d be skinny-fat without paleo.)
I recently got some blood tests done, and I was surprised to see a A1C of 5.4 (!!).
To put this in context, my fasting glucose was 91 (95 a month earlier), and insulin was 4.1. C Reactive protein was 0.20 mg/L at a test one month earlier. Blood lipids were also fine.
Any comments on my alarmingly high A1C would be highly appreciated, and thanks so much for a great show, from which I’m learning a ton every week.
Robb Wolf says
that is only a it elevated. Sleep?
The problem would be the burning loose stools. I just don’t know what I can do to fix this… I’m past bloody stools and food is breaking down fine, but I’m still making frequent bathroom trips and I’m assuming the acidic bowel movements are causing this.
I’m at s loss what else to do…
Thanks for any input 🙂
Robb Wolf says
Try adding in a few yams/sweet potatoes. This will decrease the need for bile, perhaps fix this issue. Let me know.
Robb and Andy,
First, thank you so much for the podcast I have truly found them invaluable to me in this quest for health. I apologize for the very lengthy comment – I have listed to all your episodes over the last few days and have saved my questions for now since I am all caught up. A few years ago I was having extreme pain in my abdomen, after about 6 months it is diagnosed as gallstones and my gallbladder is removed (super pissed about this now after finding more info about paleo and your recent podcast on the issue). Anywho, I’m not your typically follower in that 1) I’ve always been overweight/obese and 2) given some really stressful events the last few years I am now super morbidly obese. However, I am as “healthy” as a super morbidly obese person can be I guess (I completed a sprint triathlon at 300+ pounds and have remained relatively active, off an on, throughout my life). To kind of get back on point I have a few questions I started eating VLC paleo 2 days ago and feel frekkin fantastic! I’m not currently in any kind of training program – kind of building a general weight training program myself mixed with some walking and swimming.
1. Is there any concern I should have at being about 365lb, 5’9, 27 y/o female in eating paleo… basically anything tweeks my meal plans due to my girth?
2. Can you give me a breakdown of what percent of my calories should be from protein, carbs, and fat?
For the last two days my consumption has been at:
161.8 g/protein x 4cal/g = 647.2 kcal = 28% of calories coming from protein
52.3g carb x 4cal/g = 209.2 kcal = 9 % calories from carbs
164.8g fat x 9cal/g = 1483.2 kcal = 64 % of calories from fat
fat coming from a can of regular coconut milk, a little coconut oil, EVOO, handful of nuts and 1oz espresso dark chocolate
271.4 g protein = 48.5 % calories from protein
26.8g carbs = 4.79% calories from carbs
111.5g fat = 44.9 % calories from fat
fat sources include 2 slices bacon, avocado, olive oil.
Obviously I am still trying to get to that 1g protein/lb body weight but I feel as though I am consuming too much fat (but listening to the podcast I am not sure given what you say some others are eating).
I haven’t had any low’s eating this way — no crappy feeling for three weeks. I feel great! My sleep has improved and I can just go to bed now, as opposed to sleeping with the sleep timer on the tv, I have an appetite in the morning, and my mental clarity has been great.
4. Seasonal allergies – can this way of eating eliminate them?
I didn’t develop seasonal allergies until my second year in college, before then I never really got the problem people were experiencing with flowers blossoming. Normally, I have a HUGE histamine reaction to cutting the grass and it lasts for about 6-12 hours however, I cut the grass yesterday and haven’t sneezed once. Any thought? I know not very scientific since it was only one instances but could I reasonably expect to sneeze less in the spring/summer when eating paleo?
5. I have had nutritionist and doctors tell me in the past that I can not reasonably expect to weigh less than 230 pounds since I have been overweight my whole life, and have family members that are obese. Do you think I am doomed to be obese forever if I get nutrition and calorie balance under control?
Robb Wolf says
1&2- Food looks good! Run with that.
3(listed as 4)-Allergies typically improve on paleo.
4-You are NOT doomed. It will be work, we have no idea where things will finish, but amazing changes can/will occur.
Keep me posted!!
Emily M. says
The question about the really hard gainer (the wife whose husband weighed 165) made me wonder if it was my ex boyfriend’s wife writing. He is, however, the same height, but 7 pounds lighter. Yep, he’s 6’4″ 158ish. You can see every muscle, vein, rib, and when I saw his back for the first time, he reminded me of a concentration camp victim, I kid you not. He is so lean you can almost see through to see his heart beating in his chest.
While we dated, that was when I started with CFSB, and he did it with me. He ate at least 5,000 calories per day and somehow, the tape worms (just kidding) let him gain almost 20 pounds of LBM in 4 months. As soon as he quit CF and went back to his 3,000 calories a day of a poop diet, he lost all he had gained, and went back to under 160, where he is today.
So having been successful with a very hard gainer, your advice of lift heavy and eat until you can’t eat anymore is absolutely true, and I’ve seen it work in real life.
Aloha guys, I only started to listen a week ago.., I had the blog subscription before, but never really read it (sorry), until I came across BG (whom I’m a big fan of) recommendation scampering through her blog.
And I love it, I’m totally hooked! You guys are superstars, Andy is so sweet, and Robb’s so funny and cute. Very cool! And very informative, most importantly. Keep on the amazing job.
I remembered from your podcast what you said about some glutamine coming from wheat sources so I pulled out the glutamine and the problem seems to have settled.
I changed brands recently and I wonder if that was the problem?
Could a wheat derived glutamine product cause gallbladder issues in sensitive individuals?
Robb Wolf says
Hell-yes, that could be it.
Sleep is good so far as I do sleep undisturbed and don’t wake up to an alarm clock, but I’m not sure sleep quality is super-great. I feel rather grumpy in the morning.
I can add that my body seems generally very eager to go into a fight-or-fight mode with raised pulse, BP, adrenaline, and, I assume, cortisol + glucose release.
I’ve theorized that I’ve been a bit on the under-eating side for a while as well as eating too late in the evening (1-2hrs before bed), which may have contributed as a stressor. (I rarely seem to feel hunger at all.)
Quick update – I reached that kinda crappy feeling late into day 3-4, which seems to make sense. The hardest part thus far is eating three MEALS, and at that meals that require so much chewing!! I was pretty accustomed to getting a big lunch and drinking a lot of soda/crude to get me through. I’ve recently left my super high stress, 70 hour a week sales job and I have noticed my desire for soda had decreased with that, even below starting paleo.
I just started listening to your podcasts and it sounds like you really like coconut milk as a fat source. I love the stuff but I’ve avoided it ever since I heard about bisphenol A in can liner. Is regular consumption of canned food okay? Of course, I can get coconut OIL not in cans, but you can do so much more with the milk.
Robb Wolf says
I’ll need to dig into this a bit but here is a good start:
coconut milk tis too good to go without!
Jay Jack says
I know this doesn’t really belong on this thread, but, I don’t know where else to put it, and I thought someone might like it. Well, this was a my experiment. I decided to do a Palro/Primal Ultra (50k on trails).
I ate dead strict Paleo (w butter and heavy cream) 100% for 3 months before the race. Prior to that it was not that strict.
I trained for this by doing Crossfitesque work (more like CF Football), in addition to my doing BJJ/Muay Thai/MMA as I own an academy.
I did only one long run (should be called a speed hike as I hike all the hills, I only run the downs, and jog the flats) per week. Kept my heart rate under 75% on all long runs. I was also in VFFS for all runs and conditioning.
I did all my training runs fasted and using only coconut water.
I built up to a 20 miler as my last training run.
Race Day: ate eggs scrambled in bacon grease. coffee with pastured heavy cream. During the race I ate only these little energy balls made from a recipe in the Thrive Diet book made of coconut oil, dates, lime juice, and I added guarana for some extra kick. Drank only coconut water and regular water. Wore VFF treks. Kept an average heart rate of 76% (1 damn % higher than I wanted). finished in 8:12 (50k). Not setting records, but I’ve never done any race before. Not a 5k, nothing. So this was a TOTAL experiment.
It is possible to do an ultra without breaking any Paleo/Primal lifestyle parameters. Just felt like proving it. Why… no idea. Just decided I wanted to. I know people might bag on it, but I thought somebody may enjoy hearing about the success of it.
Now onto some other off the wall goal.
Robb Wolf says
this deserves some front-page love! Huge thank-you for sharing this.
Tyler from FFT says
I think my comment got overlooked (#13)… but it’s OK, you guys still kick ass.
Thanks so much for answering my question Robb and Andy (#6). My husband and I cracked up listening to your response. In the past month, he has dropped the oatmeal, beans and rice and is doing more fats and he feels great. The weight has not gone up, but he is performing really well. So, after hearing your response, it seemed to take some of the pressure off. As you said, he has a really fun training schedule and as much as he would like to gain twenty pounds, there is no way he is going to give up BJJ, boxing, biking, hiking, etc. Now he is going to continue to eat paleo and eat at least enough to maintain his weight, but keep having fun and training hard.
Robb Wolf says
Good to hear! Andy want’s to put everyon on a gallon of milk per day with 531! keep me posted you both of y’alls progress.
Just finished my first week of paleo and lost 6 pounds without being hungry. Also, I had to order fish oil online and it hasn’t arrived yet so I have been without it. 6 pounds in a week is the most I have ever lost, including being on a 800-1200 cal/day prescribed diet. Really drives home the point that there is a lot to be said about quality, not just quantity.
Robb Wolf says
That’s awesome, keep me posted.
Hope this isn’t too late of a comment to be seen since it’s on a pretty old thready but…regarding the theoretical physics comment (I’m an ex theoretical physicist): Remember that during Newtonian to Quantum transition was in no way a smooth transition. The old guard physicists didn’t want anything to do with Quantum mechanics and kept trying to add on to Newtonian mechanics to make everything work out right (just like the epicycles on top of epicycles that the old timey astronomers tried to do in response to Galileo). The only way progress was made was when the young guys did stuff. All of the major theories and developments came from guys in their early 20’s. I think that’s a good analogy to today with the nutritional sciences. We need to focus on the young researchers and hope that they turn the tide, you’ll never convince an old professor that his career is based on lies. Hell, you’ll never convince a freshly minted Ph.D. that his thesis was based on lies. Gotta get ’em young.
Hey Robb and Andy!
Thanks very much for taking the time to address my question on adrenal fatigue. Your responses were very informative and helped to clarify a number of issues for me.
Thanks again for all you do with the site and show. I am eagerly anticipating the arrival of your book when it is released.
All the best,
Re: the comments on the field of nutrition lacking an overriding hypothesis.
I thought the problem was that they have the lipid hypothesis, to which they have to bend all results and observations. So it isn’t that they lack the theory, it’s that they are working under the wrong theory, which as you’ve mentioned is backed by much money and private interests.
I agree it is strange to see scientists refusing to question their own premises and assumptions, but it does seem to be human nature as there are many examples of it. There have also been many examples of scientists who have challenged the mainstream and lost their funding and positions. That may be why your university will not take you up on your research. But it’s sad.
@17:35 did Robb say Hyperthyroid or Hypothyroid? TIA
Tweaks & fiddles!!!