Black Box Summit Part 2

Here is a response from Greg Everett about the BBS.

So, in the spirit of free speech and assuming people are smart enough to  discern the facts on their own, here is Russell Berger’s account of the Black Box Summit. Read mine, Read Greg’s, read the comments of ALL the attendees…perhaps someday we will see the entire videos…and of course, read Russell’s account. Then you make your own decision. I was asked to remove the link that was here before, so here is the original content:

The Black Box summit was a three day seminar hosted by CrossFit Central, a successful affiliate run by Jeremy Thiel, and his sister Carey Kepler. The event was marketed as being “For Affiliates by Affiliates”, and cost of admission was a thousand dollars. The seminar included a panel of speakers, including Robb Wolf, Nicki Voletti, Dutch Lowy, James Fitzgerald (OPT), Mike Rutherford, Amie Anaya, and Greg Everrett.

I attended as a guest of Tony Budding and Dave Castro, and intended to review the seminar and possibly write an article for the journal on my experience. The following is a brief summary of the events that took place.

Jeremy Thiel opened the event with a dynamic and exciting presentation of the charter for the Black Box Summit—Building a stronger CrossFit community through sharing experiences and knowledge related to running a CrossFit Affiliate.

From there Thiel discussed the brand of CrossFit, and the dynamic relationship that exists between affiliate owners and CrossFit Headquarters. Thiel congratulated HQ for having no desire to regulate affiliates, and leaving it up to the community to shape their own destiny. He gave us a positive message about the need for communication and discussion, rather than the tearing-down of CrossFit he had seen in events like the Greyskull article.
He followed with a fantastic explanation of what it takes to be an affiliate. He drew a triangle on the board. At the bottom was service and humility, something he had seen demonstrated directly by Greg and Lauren Glassman. On top of that rested the twin angles of the CrossFit Affiliate- raw, killer intensity and professionalism in training. The pinnacle of the triangle is excellence. Jeremy explained that Affiliates that embodied this triangle wiould succeed on every front.

Nicki spoke next, and gave a different opinion. She encouraged Affiliates to “Fly two Flags”, or give your business one name that included the word CrossFit, and another that did not. She explained that this would act as a form of “damage control”, and give you the ability to market to clients who had had “bad experiences” at other affiliates.

I asked Nicki if she had experience with any other method for dealing with weaker affiliates in her area. Nicki explained that this hadn’t happened to them, but their concern came from CrossFit impersonators using names like “X-Fit”.

OPT approached me later, “The answer to your question”, he said “ is to take some responsibility and reach out to that weaker affiliate.” OPT explained that like any business, it is your job to make sure your brand is well-represented, and if it is not, you need to take on a leadership role, forge a good relationship with that weak affiliate, and help them improve their product.

Next, Dutch and Robb discussed the pitfalls and failures that could easily arise from not being a “Quality” Affiliate, and Robb criticized CrossFit certifications for not requiring the same knowledge of anatomy and physiology as other certifications found in the fitness industry.

At the end of day one, the CrossFit Central staff put us through a fun, short workout. Thiel and Kepler moved through their staff, motivating and coaching CrossFitters. The rest of the Summit staff retreated to their own separate strength workout, ironically right after the emphasis on quality training.

On Saturday, Robb’s nutrition lecture covered the basics of indoctrinating new clients into the Paleo diet, and mentioned a number of helpful tools like Affiliate challenges, before and after pictures, and monthly nutrition classes to use for motivating clients. He also gave a number of examples of elite athletes who performed on an “Unweighed and unmeasured Paleo diet”.

After lunch on the second day, Greg Everrett took the floor and presented a power-point presentation on teaching Olympic lifts to CrossFitters. Dutch Lowy introduced Greg as a former CrossFitter, to which Greg replied “We all make mistakes.”

His lecture opened with his thoughts on the Snatch event in the CrossFit games, which centered on the poor technique displayed in a number of the lifts. This went on for some time, until Greg made his first assertion, that the winner of the Women’s snatch event, Tamara Holmes, needed more Olympic lifting training. He showed us video of her winning lift, a 145 pound power-snatch and shared his disgust at the appearance of the lift. He then showed video of Tamara easily power-snatching 165 at a lifting meet a few weeks later. Greg didn’t mention the context of it being Event 6 of the Games, but held that all CrossFitters needed more Oly-lift training based on this example.

Next, Greg showed us a still image of Annie Sakamoto doing a barbell clean superimposed next to what looked like a competitive Olympic lifter cleaning upwards of 200 kilos. Greg used this comparison to pick apart the form Annie was displaying, and the techniques CrossFit uses to teach the lifts. He claimed, while looking at a still image, that Annie had shrugged the bar up instead of generating the force with her hips, and said that this was incorrect, pointing out the low shoulders of the competitive lifter. He then showed us how the shoulders should float up naturally as an after-effect of the violent hip-extension in the clean, finishing his point with “I guess I go back and forth on this one”

Greg then moved to the next image, Nicole Carroll cleaning a Dynamax medicine ball superimposed next to another competitive lifter mid-clean. Greg laughed mockingly and said “I’m not even going to get into that”.

From the audience, Dave Castro spoke up, telling Greg to “Get into it”.

Greg looked at Dave and said, “Maybe later sweetheart.”

To which Dave asked, “Did you just call me sweetheart you fat fuck?”

After a moment of silent tension, Greg continued his lecture and Dave remained silent and seated until he was finished. Greg again mocked the photo of Nicole, and demonstrates the ineffectiveness of having ones feet “leave the ground that far” during a medicine-ball clean. The rest of Greg’s lecture consisted of weightlifting nuances, mostly targeted towards explaining how the methods both Rippetoe and CrossFit teach were incorrect.

At the end of the presentation, Dave approached Greg, and asked him to step outside where they could discuss what had just happened. I learned from Dave a short while later that Dutch Lowy had asked him to leave. As Dave was leaving, however, Thiel asked him to stay.

At the end of our second day, we all did a team workout consisting of pull-ups, deadlifts, wall-ball shots, and 800m sprints. While The CrossFit Central Staff worked to make the event happen, and Thiel supervised, the rest of the Seminar staff again retreated to a corner of the gym where they did their own strength workout. They didn’t coach or interact with any of us.

On Sunday, after a number of interesting and even moving lectures from OPT and Carey Kepler, we began a discussion on programming. All of the speakers present, with the exception of Thiel and Kepler, had expressed the necessity of using additional strength-building and maximal effort workouts when programming.

The weekend was wrapped up with Thiel’s optimistic vision of a stronger CrossFit community, and his thanks to the many participants who had traveled to his affiliate for the weekend.


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115 Comments

  1. Joseph
    Posted December 5, 2009 at 7:30 am | Permalink

    I have been on the outside looking into CF for a while now. Being poor money-wise and rich in terms of information (with a research library around the corner), I have never made the leap into the program, though I occasionally have lifted exercises or workouts from the CF site. This fiasco pretty much seals the deal for me: I will never darken the doors of a CF affiliate unless I know and trust the people running it. The brand name “Crossfit” is an empty, unknown quantity for me.

  2. Posted December 7, 2009 at 6:51 am | Permalink
  3. Posted December 7, 2009 at 10:35 am | Permalink

    Yep, looks like CrossFit Perestroika!! Amazing timing. Now we will see if it’s an actual shift or just lip-service.

  4. Lee
    Posted December 7, 2009 at 3:38 pm | Permalink

    I’ve been doing CF for a year now, all in my garage, and seen lots of benefits. I’ve weighed and measured, done Paleo, read a lot, watched a lot of videos and its all worked pretty well for me (I’m always tinkering, but making gains and having fun).
    But what I want to say is that it was CLEAR to me long before reading about any of this BBS stuff that Dave Castro is an ass and the kind of person I would never want to know in real life and CFHQ will suffer as long as he has so much power. It just comes through in every video he’s in. Just as Robb’s good nature comes through in every piece of media I’ve seen with him. You can’t be exposed that much in all kinds of ways without your true nature coming through. Sure, Dave’s probably not that bad all the time, but we are largely defined by how we act in situations like the one described at BBS.
    I have never met any of these people and only know CF and it’s related ideas from afar on the web. That being said, Coach Glassman has always seemed great, Robb has seemed great, Tony Budding seems like a prick and Dave seems like a juvenile out-of-his-league idiot. I think Coach would be wise to reign in Tony and Dave. He seems like the kind of man that could admit a mistake and move on.
    You’re goodness shines through Robb. In the end you might all be wrong about what works best but at least you have character. It’s obvious who is in the wrong here, even from 2000 miles away.

  5. Justin
    Posted December 8, 2009 at 12:34 am | Permalink

    I saw that video. Looks like damage-control to me. Maybe they actually recognize how many people are left with a bad taste in their mouth over all of this and are trying to calm them down with a well-timed vid?

  6. Posted December 8, 2009 at 3:39 pm | Permalink

    Justin-
    Well…the new openness did not stop them from forbidding Kelly Starrett from doing his gig at our place AND they moved the Level 1 planned for OneWorld to CF north Santa Cruz. Openness my ass.

  7. Riley
    Posted January 25, 2010 at 8:17 pm | Permalink

    I am a fan of Crossfit as a training program, namely Crossfit Football, and I have found myself healthier than ever thanks to it, but I, like many others, have a hard time endorsing their business model.
    I think it is very unwise of CFHQ to allow certification of anyone who pays the fee, and their lack of quality control with their affiliates only reflects badly on them in the end, via bad training, client injuries, etc.
    I also find that it seems that anyone who enters CF as a coach/nutritionist that has a background OUTSIDE of what is preached by CF, inevitably parts ways with CF, often becoming the target of a smear campaign by HQ to discredit these knowledgeable individuals.
    Take this article for example. It is the only source I have read, that plays out with Castro being morally in the right, and it is no surprise, as CFHQ seems committed to refusing that they can do anything wrong.
    As for Castro and Berger, what a pair of dicks, pardon the language.

  8. Daniel
    Posted March 26, 2010 at 5:47 am | Permalink

    My Kool-Aid tastes funny.

  9. Posted March 26, 2010 at 8:26 am | Permalink

    Daniel-
    Drink up, it’ll all be fine soon.

  10. Phillip
    Posted April 14, 2010 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

    As a cf’r who directly challenged Glassman, and brought up many of the same concerns (lack of a&P and biomechanics, and physiology training at certs) and lak of research or willingness to be open to research to advance CF, I was eventually banned from CF.com for arguing with Glassman. I was a big fan of the concept of CF, but as a sports scientist, I am always seeking to investigate and tweak my chosen program in the desire to elicit greater gains. It seems ironically that CF, which started as renegade to “conventional” fitness, has now become one of the dogmatic, anti questioning systems it strove to change.

  11. Posted April 15, 2010 at 5:47 am | Permalink

    Phillip-
    Mark Twight made this same observation 4 years ago. As an “open source” kernel CF was amazing. The dogmatic avoidance of input from the community has been a major stumbling block however. change may occur, Someone forwarded a piece on Westside Barbell for CF. It looks remarkably similar to the piece Michael Rutherford did over 5 years ago. Apparently HQ likes all the ideas to be “their own”.

  12. Phillip
    Posted April 15, 2010 at 8:20 am | Permalink

    Robb,

    I know exactly what you mean. Some of the points are brought up were eventually addressed but brought up as their own idea. The “drink the kool aid” mentality of many cf’rs is disturbing. I was directly challenged by Glassman once, who claimed my understanding of basic exercise physiology and biomechanics was disturbingly low, and that my logic was terribly flawed for suggesting among other things that CF require advanced training in A&P, Biomechanics, and Ex Phys to become a certified trainer, and that IF CF wants to claim it improves fitness along a broad spectrum of physical qualities, than a large battery of tests of CF’rs in things like Vertec, VO2 max, Wingate Test, Shuttle Time Test, and 5 RM bench and Squat, compared to other “athletes” would prove that. Glassmans response was the fact that experienced CF’rs do much better at WOD’s than non CF’rs is proof of their superior fitness. To which I countered that proves fitness about as well as making a CF’r do figure skating, and when they don’t do as well as trained skater, it proving the skater is more fit. For this I was shunned by CF, for critically examining a great fundamental program.
    CF is a great daily undulating GPP, which isn’t great for beginners, and insufficient for elite athletes, but will probably ( I say probably, becuase know definitive tests, like the aforementioned have ever been done) improve improve several aspects of fitness for 90% of the general population, and off season athletes. It is sad they have dug their heads in the sand and refuse to adapt. I’m sure if you look on CF you can still find some of my banned posts.

  13. Posted April 15, 2010 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    Phillip-
    I remember that now. I have never seen glassman admit a mistake publicly. Other than he “fucked up” by having me as part of the program.

  14. Phillip
    Posted April 22, 2010 at 11:49 pm | Permalink

    Robb,

    Do you remember me “fighting” with Glassman and being kicked off the site?

  15. Posted April 23, 2010 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    When you described the exchange it rang some bells, so yes, I think so.

3 Trackbacks

  1. By W+M: Squat / row « OK GO! on November 25, 2009 at 2:49 am

    [...] a little sad to read about shenanigans (Robb, Robb again, Greg Everett, Dutch, another point of view) at the CrossFit Black Box Summit which, if you read [...]

  2. By Mid Week Links of Drama « Z Fitness on November 25, 2009 at 2:13 pm

    [...] Russell Berger’s account: [...]

  3. By Black Box Summit Part 2 | Crossfit Deep Ellum on December 2, 2009 at 7:44 pm

    [...] Source [...]

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