Dairy is quite the contentious topic. Prohibited in paleo but lauded in keto… what do you do?
Well, like most things, it’s highly nuanced and depends on YOU.
Some think grass-fed butter is the drink of gods. Even more keto people are loading up on buttered coffee, cheese-laden meals, and heavy whipping cream… but does that help you reach your goals?
What does all this dairy do to your hormones and IGF? Listen to learn!
Check out this short video to hear my thoughts on dairy:
Want to go keto even though dairy is problematic for you? Check out my post on How to Keto If you don’t do dairy.
Full Transcript:
Nicki: Okay, Robb. We have a question about dairy, in particular, cream. Beyond the full fat, grass-fed, organic, non-GMO, non-homogenized beautifulness, but more specifically about the hormonal properties and health implications.
Robb: Oh, man. Cream is awesome, tastes great. It’s very calorically dense. We’ve seen a lot of people get themselves in the deep end of the pool by just overconsuming cream.
The goal is a low carb or ketogenic diet for fat loss and body composition. The person is struggling, we get in, poke around, look at their meal plan, and they’re doing a quarter cup of cream four or five times throughout the day, putting some coffee in it.
There are some cool elements to grass-fed butter and cream. There is some Vitamin K in it, a little bit of carotenoids. But at the end of the day, it’s just a really dense calorie source, and you don’t really get anything else. There’s not many vitamins, not much in the way of minerals.
Nicki: Are there any problems, hormonally with IGF and stuff like that?
Robb: Not really because the bulk of the driver from IGF response around dairy, is from the protein. That’s a whole interesting story.
Pedro Bastos is an absolute expert in that scene. If folks don’t follow him, they should definitely check him out.
But traditional cultures typically cultured their dairy. By doing that, it modifies the proteins in such a way that you don’t get as potent of an IGF response. Even then, it’s all kind of context driven. People freak out about that and they freak out about mTOR.
If you are overlaying elevated IGF levels, plus an overfed environment, plus poor sleep, plus a hyperinflammatory response, then you’ve got problems.
I guess one of the common bugaboos around whole cream and butter in particular with regard to dairy is, that there are people who happen to be … One of these people …
I have a FOXO mutation that the saturated fat, in general, will drive up my lipoproteins. There is all kinds of pissing matches and contention around whether or not the elevated lipoproteins in cholesterol matters in the context of a low carb diet. It’s not entirely clear what the story is with that.
There’s a reality that if I shift out butter and cream, and I do more nuts and mono and saturated fats from an olive oil, my lipoproteins and cholesterol just plummet. It could be the difference between 1,100 on the mono base deal or 2,800 with regard to LDL-P count on the higher saturated fat levels.
The hormonal responses, I’m not really concerned about that on any level. Good pick up on the IGF. But I am concerned about butter and cream from the caloric load, from the lack of nutrient density, and then also there are some people that definitely get an elevation in lipoproteins.
I suspect again that cholesterol lipoprotein story is going to be somewhat individual, as to whether or not it increases cardiovascular disease risk. But it’s one of those things to at least be aware of, and you can make an informed decision then about what you’re doing.
Nicki: And so, if you’re not one of these people that responds like you to saturated fat, and if you’re not doing a quarter cup three times a day, having a little splash in your coffee in the morning is not the end of the world.
Robb: Yeah, yeah. I mean, again a little bit of portion control, no big deal. Yeah.
Thank for this Robb and Nikki. I DO love that splash (ok 2 second stream) of grass fed cream I ritualistically add to my 2 cups coffee each day. From a body comp standpoint I feel pretty good- just not sure about how it might be affecting my over all health to the point Robb talked about regarding saturated fats and lipoproteins. Haven’t had my lipid profile checked in a few years. Also will plan to upload my 23&me data to discover what my genes have to say about some of this. Thanks again. You both rock and I love what your doing! Keep it going!
Can I just come live in your garage? Every time I listen to one of these, I learn something I had not even considered. So here’s a serious question: Do you recommend a specific functional medicine doc/practice that is aligned with your style of teaching? I have a zany complicated medical history. I’ve seen a good doc at Cleveland Clinic functional medicine dept who was cool with keto, but she left the practice. I’ve seen by video consult a doc at Chris Kresser’s place who might be the answer, but she is not a fan of my VLC tendencies. I personally know just enough to be dangerous (non-practicing chiropractor) and feel like I’m in over my head trying to manage my health issues. I own a CrossFit but struggle to do CrossFit, and though I’ve made progress over the past seven years, I cannot reach the next level of pre-iatrogenic health crises. Any suggestions greatly appreciated. And I’m happy to give the thumbnail version of my med history but try not to overshare since not everyone is as fascinated with it as I am. Thanks, Robb and Nikki. You guys are awesome. – Paige
Here’s a list I usually give people:
http://ccfmed.com/
http://drruscio.com/
http://amymyersmd.com/
https://kresserinstitute.com/directory/
http://paleophysiciansnetwork.com/
https://re-findhealth.com/
https://www.steadymd.com/
https://www.integrativehealthcare.com/your-lab-results-advisor/ (Dr. Guillermo Ruiz)
Some of those networks/directories like the Paleo Physicians Network, we can’t vet everyone on. It’s just a listing of people who wanted to sign up and weren’t spam. So keep that in mind when finding someone.
Did the doc at Chris Kresser’s have a good reason for not liking your VLC stuff? There can be good reason for that, and Kresser knows his stuff (so I assume his other docs probably do as well).
Dairy is my inflammation nemisis. I have avoided eating dairy for 30 odd years, intially due to it being a contributor to Psoriasis as a teenager.
Now I find if I eat dairy, which I might do on the rarest of occasions when say, eating out for a special event etc, the next day I wake with serious lower back and joint pain. It takes 48 hours for my body to return to it’s “normal” state. Excess sugars trigger the same inflammation response too.
I did grow up drinking raw milk straight from the cow’s udder which definately had its benefits in laying down excellent bone density as a child however for myself and others I know, dairy triggers undesirable auto-immune responses as we’ve aged.
This really sparked an interest in me. I have struggled with high cholesterol for years. I did really well on paleo but keto has been a struggle. I recently went through a food allergy and sensitivity testing and discovered that I am allergic to dairy. Coffee with HWC is my favorite thing on earth (besides people, of course), and cheese is next. However, this may be the missing piece to finally losing fat and getting healthy. The other challenges I now face are a cashew allergy and high sensitivity to chicken, all nuts but walnuts, most fish, and eggs. I laugh when I say I am now a
Vegan who eats beef, turkey, and pork.
An often overlooked issue here is that raw milk does not resemble the denatured stuff at all, so the research is probably way off. Also there are various kinds of “milk” and the chemical makeup between the species is quit significant and their reaction in humans is also going to be dependent on the conditioning of the gut since birth. Raw milk is alive, as I think Paleo food should be and as far as “foods” go how many are actually meant to be eaten. P.S. Milk needs to be eaten not gulped down. Put some raw milk in a baby bottle and take a suck and you will see what I’m talking about . Digestion begins in the mouth.
Another aspect maybe worth mentioning is noticing any addition-like reactions. I use grass fed cream, which I then ferment. If I’m following your advice and making sure I meal plan and count my cals and macros, my plan might include a couple of tablespoons once or twice a day, and it doesn’t seem to be a problem. But if I’m left to my own devices, I can eat spoonful after spoonful of it, which smacks to me of an underlying addiction.
I actually have a very strong hormonal reaction to most dairy, but not butter (I usually buy cultured, organic and grass fed butter). With any other kind of dairy, I get a hot flash type reaction, acne, and increased libido, some occasional diarrhea with milk. And I would get organic grass fed, no hormones products, mostly European grass fed cheese, but occasionally cultured sour cream. I became so emotional, crying all day long, like a 24 hour a day PMS. I didn’t make the connection at first, I thought I was just depressed. But one morning, after having cried 4 different times, it seemed so ridiculous that it could be depression when I looked at what I was crying about. When I considered the time frame this had been happening, it coincided with the dairy I had been eating . So I stopped eating it and the symptoms went away and have not returned. And I’m post menopausal by 3 1/2 years ago, so it wasn’t that. So don’t rule out hormonal reactions. Wasn’t it you who said that dairy is actually breast milk? There might not be added hormones but there are definitely hormones since that is how the milk is produced, even in cows.
One mug of coffee made with cream in the morning keeps me going all day until my one meal at dinner time. No problem whatsoever.
Everyone that talks about dairy usually do not mention kefir or yogurt. How do low carb high fat eaters feed their gut bacteria? Are they taking supplements? You eat fermented foods. How much of that can you consume to feed your gut bacteria? I eat a low carb, high fat diet. Its not a keto ratio. Its more like 65-70 fat, 20-22 carb and the rest protein.
Allen, there is no need to somehow “maintain” the bacteria in your gut by consuming probiotics. That’s a common misconception promoted by the industries selling such products. Your body has complete control over all the bacteria, viruses and fungi that live with it symbiotically. It will increase or decrease the amount of any particular species to suit its needs. Sometimes it may look like there is an imbalance, but people just don’t yet understand what our bodies are up to.
Thanks Robb and Nikki.
Robb, you mention your have a FOXO mutation, that’s very interesting – could you share a little more detail please? What SNP, on which gene?
I’ve tried a couple Google searches but can’t find that…would be very useful to know more.
Many thanks!
Keep up the GREAT work as always, it’s much appreciated.
Sorry “Nicki” not “Nikki” my bad!!!
Sorry Nicki!! 🙂