We have a sweet little pond on the farm where my kids enjoy catching frogs and going fishing. They spend hours down there, unsupervised, and find all sorts of creatures, make up games, and do other “kid” things. This is spring break week and the kids are hanging around. My son (age 12) is working in the mornings and my daughter (age 10) is in a cooking “camp” for a few hours each day. The weather has been unusually warm, so the kids have been spending nearly all day outside. It’s been great.
The other morning, my daughter and her friend went down to the pond, buckets in hand to catch some creatures, and were horrified to find a dead sheep. They came running into the kitchen, where I was cooking lunch for the farm crew, to tell me I had to come see it. As we walked out towards the pond, they vividly described how “intestines were all over the grass, the heart was near a rock, and there was an explosion of blood everywhere”. When we finally got to the scene, I had to agree with their depiction. The carcass had been completely gutted, and the organs were gone. There was a lot of blood and wool all over the grass. There were flies all over the body. It was really gross.
“Looks like a coyote got to this one.” I said. “These things happen on a farm sometimes. We do our best to protect them with fencing and the dogs, but sometimes the coyotes figure it out.” The two girls were quiet as we walked back to the house for lunch. I thought to myself that this might be one of those traumatic scenes from childhood that sticks with them unless I somehow diffuse it. “Um, does anybody need to talk about this? Are you guys feeling ok about what you saw?”
“It was the grossest thing I’ve ever seen!” said my daughter’s friend. My daughter just kept her head down and didn’t say much.
Earlier that day, Julie Mayfield sent me and Robb a group text with a link to this story, about how a farmer was trying to defend his rights to kill and consume a cow on his own farm. A group of activists trying to “save” this cow from being killed were trying to stop him. The guy is a farmer. He’s raising a cow. Humans are omnivores. People are trying to tell him he can’t eat his own cow? Are you kidding me? Anyway, I texted them back an image of what the girls found on the farm, saying how THIS is what happens when something dies “naturally”. I’ll spare you the image.
Robb’s reply was this:
After lunch, I was sitting at my computer working. The girls were playing when I heard Phoebe say to her friend, “Hang on, I have to go tell my mom something”. She came running to me and hugged me and broke down crying. I know how upset she was. I can only imagine being a 10yr old girl, happily looking forward to catching some good frogs, and being jolted by that massacre. It must have been pretty chilling.
“It’s totally normal for you to have been surprised by what you saw. Nature can be pretty cruel sometimes. This is how things often die in nature. When we raise animals here on the farm, we try to make sure they die in the least stressful way possible. When they get processed, it’s quick. Out in the real world, when a prey animal dies, it can be pretty drawn out and painful. Coyotes need to eat, too.” I immediate recalled a recent blog post by Caroline Watson about the morals of eating meat. She referenced a video of a live wildebeest being eaten/disemboweled by a hyena. It perfectly illustrates how important it is not to have any sort of delusions about “natural death” being peaceful.
As someone who is involved in raising and killing animals, how they die is something that, contrary to what many vegans think, responsible producers really care about. I actually helped to produce this short video about the a woman who works at a humane slaughterhouse, and how she views her important job to help take these animals into the next phase of their existence.
Nature is sometimes gruesome. Us humans are so far removed from the cycles of life and death that when we see death, we find it terrifying. The fact is, death is a completely normal part of life. You simply cannot have life without death.
Now I had to drop off Phoebe’s friend and tell the mom what the girls saw and hope that she wouldn’t sue me. Luckily, the mom is a member of the farm CSA, has my books, and I was relieved when she wasn’t furious with me. I felt really bad for what her daughter had seen. Not many suburban kids see situations like that on playdates. Phew!
That evening, when my husband and I were tucking in Phoebe for bed, she started crying again. She needed to further process what she saw. I was glad Andrew was there with me. He’s a really incredible dad and does a great job of explaining complicated things in an easy way to the kids. Most kids think he’s a superhero. He told Phoebe how the sheep lived a good life, had fed the coyote, and he how he buried the rest of the sheep’s body in the compost and it’s going into the soil to feed the vegetables.
“Soil is a living thing. There are tiny organisms in the soil that need the nutrients in that sheep. Those bones in the sheep will turn into calcium to grow better kale. Everything dies and comes back again.” he said.
Phoebe sat right up. Something clicked, “Wait a minute, you’re telling me that those bones turn into vegetables? Can you TASTE them? I’m eating BONES when I eat vegetables?”
“No, you can’t taste them, but you are eating bones and blood and lots of other things when you eat vegetables,” he explained.
“So, then it’s impossible to be a vegan! If soil is living, and everything dead comes back to life, then you can’t possibly eat without eating something that has died.” she exclaimed.
Andrew and I both looked at each other and our eyes popped out of our head. Wow, she made that leap pretty swiftly. I have to say I was thrilled at how quickly those little wheels in her brain cranked. The kid is sharp. She slept without any nightmares of sheep blood. She hasn’t brought it up since. The subject is closed for now. She gets it, and she got the big picture on her own without me having to make all the associations for her. I wish all kids (and adults) had the chance to learn about life and death by roaming freely outside and making the connection that it’s impossible to be a vegan.
Wow, really love this post! First of all, it reminds me of running around my grandmother’s farm as a kid, catching tadpoles, frogs, and whatever else we found. Very cool memories.
Also, as a former vegetarian and sometimes vegan I thought this had a great message. Everything returns to the earth. And yes, nature is cruel sometimes. Death isn’t pretty. After being a vegetarian for over 30 years (and a pretty healthy one at that) and even vegan at times, it was the realization that I could eat meat from animals that were ethically raised and ultimately ethically slaughtered, to try adding animal products back into my diet. And as good as I felt as a vegetarian, I feel even better eating meat. I am almost 50 and my skin, body and energy levels are even better than they were 10 years ago.
What is so natural about depleting our resources for animal agriculture. How is it natural to harm a defenseless animal by imprisoning them. Isn’t it natural to hear their yelp and see their fighting to live and know that this is not the way to treat animals? Yes, it was natural to hunt whatever animal we could outsmart in order to SURVIVE in the old days when food was scarce. Yes we surely wouldn’t be here without hunting. But, Why enslave animals to cofined places because we must meet a demand for only those who could afford it. Is it natural to chain a cow and take away its baby in order to either kill them for veil because it won’t give profit since it won’t give milk? Or to keep the female calf and give her soy milk because what was a right ( he mom’s milk) is reserved for humans willing to pay. Is it natural to steal milk from someone who wouldn’t give it to us unless it is by force?! Even the most violent predator has a more decent living than these peaceful animals who want to be left alone. It is not natural whatsoever to imprison any animal and confine them. Is it natural to want to consume the toxins that come along with the fish that ate them to clean our oceans? It is natural to provide a sanctuary that will provide them space, food, water and love. Exploting them is NOT natural. When you think of dogs in asia that are getting kinned and burned or boiled alive or hung for their meat and their fur, do u think that is natural? I see many many many plant based eaters thriving . We have evolved and we have studied science and have found ways to yield more food that could feed the world with plants (grains, fruit, vegetables) yet we would rather the animal eat most of it and cut down forests and kill more animals so we can further feed the billions of animals that would not be here if they weren’t overbred. The science is there, If u really look without bias and it concludes that eating whole plant foods is the best way for the planet, for the sentient animals and for our health.
No one is arguing for factory farming and the current model of industrial food production. We are promoting usage of animals out on pasture eating their natural diets and being treated pretty well. Our bodies didn’t evolve to be vegetarian, and that hasn’t changed, plain and simple. Grain agriculture isn’t sustainable either.
Do we have the perfect answer to feed the entire world population right now, no, but it’s a work in progress. I think we can all agree that things need to change, as the current agricultural system isn’t sustainable.
Amazing story1 Thank you so much for sharing, Diana! What a brilliant young woman your Phoebe is! Can’t wait to see you in a few weeks!!
~ Michelle
Wow Diana- Phoebe is an amazing person! What an astutue observation.
I’m sure seeing that was really traumatic for those girls, but it sounds like you guys did a great job handling it. And I think having this experience will be, in the end, a valuable one.
Keep fighting the good fight!
Thank you for sharing. I have often struggled with the fact that I eat meat. I had a couple of friends who are vegan for ethical reasons only and I felt quite pressured to explain myself and just always in the losing end of a conversation I didn’t care to discuss ( like politics with some people). I questioned if it made me a cruel person. Which I think is a valid question in specific contexts. It has forced me to get serious about sourcing ethical raised meats, eggs, dairy, etc. In which I at least I have the tact to usually keep this comment to myself… ” Happy animals are the tastiest” lol thanks for sharing such a poignant story with insight. ?
Apparently this person doesn’t know why vegans are vegans. Do you know how much suffering animals have to endure just so that we can eat them? Also animal products are the number one contributer to heart disease which is the number one contributer to death in the US. What a bunch of bull to say is impossible to be vegan.
Many animals do suffer before and even during slaughter. On this we agree. There exists a terrible mindset in mainstream animal husbandry that refuses to see and honor the life of all things. It is everyone’s duty to make daily choices that turn this around. But the moose that gets shot to provide nourishment to my family has not suffered at our hands and certainly his death is much swifter and kinder than if he instead fell prey to the wolves who are his natural predator. The salmon that we catch do not suffer as they are dispatched straight out of the net. Just as our meat does not suffer to become our food, it is entirely possible to raise animals destined for dinner tables in pastures and rangeland that live a good life, free of suffering, that ends with one bad day. To group all meat eaters into one category is naive and/or narrow minded. To think that one can be a vegan without causing death is equally so. If a vegan eats legumes and grains that they do not raise themselves many, many small animals have died in the field as those foods were brought to harvest. Is there less blood on a vegan’s hands because they do not eat the animals that died during the production of their food? Let’s work together to minimize suffering without casting stones or throwing false accusations.
Actually I have just read from a study being done and posted by a Holistic health practitioner , that SUGAR is fast becoming the number one killer in cardiovascular disease. I raise animals humanly, we don’t mistreat them just because they will feed us…we do our best to keep them healthy. Please don’t put everyone into the category of the big companies. Why do you think we raise our own? Because of the big company practices and treatment of those animals.
You read this from a holistic health practicioner??? You understand that there is absolutely no medical validity to a holistic health practicioner right? Was it a peer reviewed article found in a medical journal? Probably not and would you care to know why? Because this phony is giving cardiovascular information with zero knowledge on the subject they are not a cardiologist. That is the biggest load of nonsense I’ve ever heard. Secondly regardless if you kiss your animals every night before bed you are murdering them!!! Kudos to you for providing a better life but those animals do not want to be killed just so people can stuff their fat faces!
With so many people living cities, it’s hard to see how we can ditch corporate agriculture and go back to local, humane food production. However, there is a growing movement in that direction. I hope that some day we will see the end of giant corporate farms and meat processing, as well as the human sweatshops and slave labor that are part of the same system. We need to keep working toward developing systems of food production that are both humane and affordable for everyone, including the huge number of people who never get enough to eat, much less get to choose where their food comes from.
Look up Dr. Ken Berry about sugar and cardiovascular disease. He’s interviewed top cardiologists. Sugar is absolutely inflammatory and cholesterol abundance is the result of it being called to fix the inflammation.
This helps explain why I will never choose to be vegetarian or vegan. To me, our focus should be on perfecting the conditions of our farms and the way in which we handle livestock from birth to death rather than on not eating meat because our process for bringing meat to the consumer sucks. Choosing to be vegan or vegetarian isn’t fixing the problem, it’s ignoring it. And as for the health concerns, most people have swung too far in the one direction ,eating so much meat and carbs and so little fruit and vegetables that of course it presents health risks. Everything in moderation.
plants are sentient and can also suffer. “Plants have biochemical reactions to noxious stimuli that are very much like ours,”
Plants ingest animals just like animals ingest plants
That was kind of the point of the article. Naturally animals do suffer, like when an animal is eaten by another animal. This is basically the way of natural life. Life feeds on life. To ignore that fact is to try and disconnect from the natural world. Raising animals in a better more humane way could potentially even bring them less suffering than if they died naturally in the wild. The point is, we can’t separate ourselves from using the lives of animals and plants, that’s the way this world works.
Animal products are not the number one contributor to death in the US, please do some more research on that topic.
Squatchy none of us are in the “real” world anymore. We all go home to our air conditioned houses and our laptops. Heck most of us get buried in metal caskets and dont even give our bodies back to the soil. We are no longer apart of natures hardship so to reap the rewards of nature is oxymoron to me. We all ignore the natural world in so many aspects. Also to think you are doing the animals a favor by not letting them die a natural death is also not allowing to live a natural life.. Im indifferent to the subject of veganism and being a meat eater. I believe the future is neither plant or animal….but synthetic nutrients.
Thermodynamics is in complete opposition to your position. An “natural Death” looks incredibly benign: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHTptXQbtb8
I agree with the comment that said this is “bull”. It’s infuriating actually. It is very possible to be vegan, and in fact, my family lives quite happily and extremely healthily without contributing to the slaughter of innocent beings. Children are usually horrified at the thought of killing animals, and I hear of many parents forcing their small children to eat meat. How is that okay? And for those who commented that you’ve felt a bit of guilt eating meat….you blame your vegan friends instead of maybe trusting your heart and instincts that because it feels wrong, perhaps it is?! Did you ever feel guilty eating carrots or broccoli? This is coming from someone who ate meat of various kinds for 25 years. I’ve learned enough to know that I couldn’t turn back. Not just for ethical reasons, but for my health and our planet, this is what I choose. And you minimize vegan jam and cast it aside, Can you really compare animals in the wild (who must kill with their own jaws, to survive) to humans of today, most of whom aren’t capable of committing their own slaughter, and consume most of their meat from a store??? This is just off base and out of touch. Keep living in your fantasy world on the farm, but the reality is, most of the meat people eat comes from a cruel and horrific place. I’ll keep doing the “impossible” over here.
Clearly neither one of you bothered to read the damn post, did ya? The title is from the observation of a ten year old girl after seeing the remains of a sheep, eaten by a coyote. To save you the onerous task of reading the whole thing and having yet more context, here it is:
“So, then it’s impossible to be a vegan! If soil is living, and everything dead comes back to life, then you can’t possibly eat without eating something that has died.”
Life feeds on life. If you want to be vegan, great. Just don’t delude yourself that you are outside nature and the realities which come with that deal.
I am an ex-moral vegetarian myself. Now I understand that far more creatures die in the production of plant foods than in production of sustainably raised and harvested livestock foods.
If you choose veganism, go for it. But thinking that you are avoiding killing animals in this way is an illusion. You may be saving cows, but many smaller animals die. Plus conventionally produced crops also end up killing everything that naturally lives in the soil.
Really. More animals by growing plants? Hell we can geow our own plants if we wanted to but most dont. We could also trade our yield at farmers market but alas we dont. No one cares but especially not the meat, dairy and egg industry. U cultivate plants to feed animals for people that can afford it. If u didbt cultivate plants dor animals. Youd have to grow less or if politics allow we can stay with what yields we get and feed the world.
But we are like WAYYY outside nature though??? We have seperated ourselves so far from it….
I went to school in Idaho and had several teachers who were potato farmers and grain farmers. The grain farmers would talk about how at the end of harvesting the field, all the mice would have congregated in one spot, and as the machine went over them you could see all the blood spray out. Not to mention all of the insects getting squashed when the machine goes over them. So seriously get off your high horse and stop acting holier than thou because you “aren’t murdering innocent animals” by eating vegan because you definitely are. Just because they are smaller animals doesn’t make their lives less valuable.
Why do you assume vegetables need to be raised in such terrible ways? If everyone had a garden and raised their vegetables as was done for most of modern history, no machines are needed. Other than insects crushed underfoot when I walk around my gardens, animals are not dying to grow potatoes or other vegetables in this way.
Boy u are something else. Plants give fruits and they die if not consumed. A 10 year old and apperantly you, robb dont understand this. What do u think those animals u eat consume ? Plants.
Well Robb, your snarky reply sure got those vegans didn’t it? Don’t you feel so proud of yourself?
Of course no one can live without benefiting from creatures who have died. No one (who I know of ) who is vegan asserts that.
But I doubt you would assert that the seven billion inhabitants of the planet could be fed with small family farms, although you and I would agree that is preferable. I am not sure how we can transition to small scale agriculture in a short amount of time. That means that at least in the short run we are stuck with most people being fed by agribusiness. I am a vegan because animal agriculture is a major source of methane, and thus a major contributor to climate catastrophe.
I hope that you explain to Phoebe that when you and I are worm food, giving back nutrients to the soil, she will be living on a hellish planet at least in part because of our massive reliance on cattle production.
Thank you for saying everything I was thinking.
Following the same line of logic one can also say that we eat crap too. If you want to eat Paleo that’s great but don’t expect negative comments when you call out the beliefs of a group.
Did you mean that we SHOULD expect negative comments? We did expect them and were looking forward to answering them! #logic
AMEN to this comment
Humans are actually herbivores by nature not omnivores which is why consuming meat & dairy leads to cancer, heart disease, autoimmunitive diseases & obesity etc. There is no such thing as human murder. Ask yourself how would I like someone to kill me or my kids. The answer is you wouldn’t. You & your family deserve the right to live in peace without fear, cruelty, slavery, rape & murder and so do animals. Veganism is so easy just switch meat to tempeh, tofu, beans, fake meats, Seitan, microprotein, veg & try plant based milk, chocolate, cake, ice cream, yogurt, cheese etc. So nutritious, environmentally friendly & your food didn’t die screaming; everyone is a winner ??
You should update your research. Many studies are showing that the biggest factor in cancer, heart disease and obesity is SUGAR, FLOUR (which acts just like sugar in the body) and consumption of highly processed foods, not meat and dairy.
I also wouldn’t qualify tofu and un-fermented/un-sprouted beans as a healthy option. Nut milks are inefficient uses of water – both in the growing of the crop and the production of the “milk”
No – we are NOT herbivores, we ARE omnivores, with a strong bias towards the carnivorous to sustain our brains. Don’t let the teeth fool you – we developed tools to substitute for carnassials as our faces flattened to accommodate our frontal brain development. And if we, as primates, were indeed plant eaters, we would look and live like gorillas, with massive fermentive guts and continuous all day eating.
BTW – cows don’t so much eat grass as insert it into the front end of a sophisticated and multistage biofactory which results in a ton of gut bugs sent to (*sob*) death by digestion to make more cow…
Want to know what to ethically do to minimise our human footprints? Start by advocating for fewer babies – like, replace yourself, then STOP. Simple. The more of us, the less for all the other critters.
Actually Technus, it is not animal products that cause heart disease but rather processed food that is full of hidden ingredients including sugar, high fructose corn syrup is one but sugar comes in many forms & turns to fat in your body.
Did you not read the story?
If you read this article thoroughly she talks a lot about the fact that animals should be treated with respect when they are raised for meat. You are thinking of factory farming, which absolutely is a shame, and terrible for the environment and human health. Pasture raised meat is not a contributor to heart disease, it actually contains healthy fats that your body and brain needs. Heart disease is caused by over eating/obesity, excess sugar, and eating a ton of factory farmed meats and processed foods.
You seem confused about vegans and animal rights activists, who are advocating that we simply NOT kill animals, and not that we kill them more sweetly than a coyote or other form of natural predation. They don’t NEED to die at all from human hands, and certainly not be butchered by the billions, that’s the point.
It’s classic logic to say that because nature is cruel, we are allowed to be as well … do you tell your children to tear the trout that they catch to shreds, raw, with their teeth because a shark would do so? As I’m sure you’ve heard before, if you really do, now conveniently, care about all those insects and micro organisms, it takes 20x as much soil and water to raise a calorie of animal food vs. a calorie of plant food. So you’ve taught them not that “it’s impossible to be vegan!” but to care 20x less about any living thing even than a lowly vegan.
Think critically. Use logic. Don’t find any “from the mouth of babes” charming little story to advance your agenda. Vegans aim to do the very least harm and stop animal butchering, not to be perfect or close their eyes to the consequences of everybody’s actions. Sorry, It’s not a “gotcha!” moment to point out that field mice and insects and snakes are killed to harvest crops; again, you are only indicting yourself and the crops and grain raised to feed animals even more.
Maybe you should teach them to enjoy their bucolic little pond (and a critical thinking lesson would not hurt either) before it’s gone … primarily due to domesticated farming.
https://www.morehouse.edu/facstaff/nnobis/papers/Davis-LeastHarm.htm
Were did you get that 20x number a cow dosent need to eat anything but grass no plowing or erosion required. Read up on Greg Judy and Alen Savery and learn how using cattle is healing land and creating an abundance of life.
Bravo! aNDERSM You said it perfectly! Thank you
The problem with your “critical thinking” is that you somehow suggest that we as humans are outside of nature, that we are not natural predators of animals. I still, after all these years (7 of which I choose to be a vegetarian), am confounded by this argument.
And, frankly, your statement, “it takes 20x as much soil and water to raise a calorie of animal food vs. a calorie of plant food” clearly shows that your understanding of the cycle of life has a few gaps in it.
I would suggest that you take a breath and find you quiet place, once you are centered try reading some literature and talking to people who are really out there doing this work. You will find that the propaganda you are parroting is just that…
Impossible to be a vegan?
It’s the same as saying it’s impossible that we will stop flighting in war’s. It’s in our nature isn’t it?
It’s true that since the beginning of time of humankind we killed animal’s , but it’s the same with killing each other in stuiped war’s so why change it? Why should we try to be a better person’s to each other and to animal’s , why even try to change for a better world for our children’s. Or maybe you think that there is an ethical killing for people also?
Humans are animals. We are designed to be omnivores. Our disconnection from nature is my entire point of this article. You need animal inputs to have vegetable outputs.
We were designed to eat animals? That’s actually false and no don’t try pulling the we have canines card because it’s already been debunked. Not to mention some of the largest canines in the animal kingdom belong to animals thriving off of a vegan diet. More importantly though or digestive system was not built for meat. Think about the fact that you have to cook it in order to safely eat it and last but not least is our brains are not hardwired to crave meat. When was the last time you saw a rabbit or rat and started salivating? Probably never. When was the last time you saw a pig and started salivating and then ripped into its still alive body with your teeth that would probably snap off while doing so? Probably never…
I would recommend doing some more legitimate research on the digestive system. Humans are clearly omnivores.
As for the other issues, fire. Fire and eating meat are believed to be one the main reasons we evolved into humans like we are today (specifically our brains). Eating nothing but plants in many areas of the world, especially in particular seasons, would have been impossible or very very inefficient to survive on.
Brit we were designed to eat both plant and animal. We can handle both raw and cooked meat and fish. The last time I looked at a Black angus steer I definitely thought dinner.
See my reply above. And note that I reference carnassials, not canines, as the former are determinate of diet, not the latter. The carnassials are the shearing teeth (cutting molars, if you will) that are designed to cut flesh, and are therefore found in all predominantly and obligate carnivores. Canines mostly serve as food-catchers or tools (eg: ice axes for walruses) AND/OR threat displays and fights. Male gorillas have huge canines, but their molars are flat grinders that mark them as herbivores.
We, as I said, invented external cutting tools and fire, so we don’t have work as hard at it, and get more bang for our buck. Our molars are an intermediate form of cutter-grinders, and our guts are proportioned for high-quality nutritional omnivory. And our metabolisms are set up for it (no, B12 cannot be sourced from plants or algae – that form cannot be used by us).
So – Be Humane: have fewer babies.
I think I was about 12 when I decided that if I couldn’t take responsibility for the life and death of what I ate then I would not eat meat.
At the time I had a clutch of ducks that I had raised and was thinking about asking Dad to kill them for me. Instead I did it myself. I didn’t like it, I cried but death is a part of life. I’m 40 now and I still don’t like killing things but I still take part in the whole process of at least some of the meat I eat.
Yes. You are an ehthical man in my book.
Great story.
The only fallacy was posted in the comments.
“Also animal products are the number one contributor to heart disease which is the number one contributor to death in the US.”
Yes the number one cause of death in the US is heart disease. But sadly, animal products are not to blame. Here are few things to check out so you don’t fumble around internet looking those people that trying to catch Sasquatch.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/04/12/this-study-40-years-ago-could-have-reshaped-the-american-diet-but-it-was-never-fully-published/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAWdHYSrh7M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDJjqY4H3Cc
Wow, I’m kind of speechless. I don’t even know quite where to begin. I feel like there are about 5 or 6 points I could easily refute, but since I don’t have all day, I’ll just address the most glaring gap in logic. Ok, death and suffering are a natural part of life. I think a person would have to be an idiot not to agree with this. But the difference is that we humans mass breed, on a mind-exploding scale animals just for the sole purpose of confining and exploiting them, and eventually slaughtering them. Stay with me now, here comes the giant hole in the logic(?) of this article. These are billions of animals that would not exist (if you want to call factory farming existing) if we weren’t mass breeding them in order to have our way with them. So no, they would not be dying a horrible, natural death… because they would not exist except for us. Oy.
I’m not arguing here for industrial farming, I’m afraid you’ve missed the point Elizabeth. Humans are animals, just like coyotes are. Animal protein is far superior to plant protein for human nutrition. If we are to eat animals, I’m saying that they should live a good life and we can do our best to make their “one bad day” as low stress as possible. If you’ve ever heard the “Theory of Least Harm”, then you would realize that just because you choose not to eat a steak, doesn’t mean you’re eating a bloodless diet. If you’re looking to kill the least number of animals to feed yourself, then large herbivores are the most “moral” choice, and happen to be the most environment AND nutritious choice.
And no, being vegan does not mean avoiding all animal products ever, or even avoiding hurting animals, since, for example, it’s nearly impossible to walk outside in the Summer time and not step on an ant, etc. Anyone who goes by that definition of vegan is seriously delusional or just super naive. The definition of vegan that I hear in the vegan community over and over again is this… Simply, doing our best to do as little harm as possible to other thinking, feeling Earthlings.
That reminds me, check out Cowspiracy on Netflix. Or even http://www.earthlings.com
I respect that you’re looking to cause less harm. As someone who lives on a working farm, and is intimately involved in food production, I have a different view from those who seem to be more removed from food production:
https://www.morehouse.edu/facstaff/nnobis/papers/Davis-LeastHarm.htm
nice piece! we run with my wife an organic certified sheep farm in Patagonia/Argentina and when our men had to slaughter a sheep, I told our kids (9/10/12 at the time), they may watch or walk away. From the conversation I overheard, when they caught one sheep from the flock with a lasso, my 10 year old mentioned in a dry way to her sister, that was this sheep’s black day. Later on, they observed the work of our men did from a distance and moved little by little closer. When they asked our “peon”, whether he liked to kill the sheep. He replied no, not at all, but the sheep’s life provides a living to us. Suffice to say, we are impressed how dedicated our crew is to look after our flocks and their well being.
This lady has completely missed the point. It’s a little passive aggressive towards vegans as well. Her truth is very different to mine. I did grow up in the countryside, spending my days playing in fields alongside sheep, goats and cows. I was always in awe of these beautiful, mostly peaceful, sentient beings. I first went vegetarian aged 7. We had a lot of pets that I loved as family. I used to go missing, aged 6. Eventually the search party would find me in a field, feeding the goats grass through a fence. After battling with my parents, I eventually became permanently vegetarian aged 11 and, after years of closet vegan-ism, I took the step last year (aged 37). There are ample good reasons for vegan-ism that aren’t limited to compassion for animals. I am not a preacher of these things unless I feel affronted and this article has left me feeling that way. I am no saint but I do know that if we have choice (and omnivores do) we should not farm, cage and kill our fellow earthlings for food or anything else. We will never be a peaceful harmonious species if we continue to control, kill and take the freedom of animals unnecessarily when we have clear alternatives. I am of the opinion that eating meat was a very necessary part of our evolution in order for us to become smart enough to stop doing it. And thus, if we wish to evolve further, we should.
Yes ! You summed up exactly what I was thinking.
I just wish we could secure the lives of all livestock in a humane farming system. I’m lucky I get to eat elk and venison my husband hunts so I don’t need to worry about if the animal I ate suffered. I’m glad you do right by your animals.
Thanks for the read,
Emily W
You are absolutely uneducated if you even think for a second that killing “humanely” or “without suffering” makes killing ok. Killing is killing no matter the reason or how it is done. 98% of animal suffering and exploitation comes from factory farming, and to think that you are not contributing to that yet can continue to eat meat, dairy, and eggs, you are mistaken! Veganism is NOT about causing 100% no harm. If u can’t live in a bubble and never cause harm to a single creature you should just throw your hands up and kill whatever? No. Veganism is about causing THE LEAST amount of harm and exploitation to the mass amount of non-human sentient animals on this planet. They are not objects, they are not products! They are not ours to determine how their life should be lived and how it should end! Don’t try to kid yourself. Your taste buds will never be more important than the life of a living, feeling, sentient creature.
So you’re saying it is better to let sheep run rampant and get slaughtered by lord knows what, and not have proper medical care incase one gets injured, and suffer to death, instead of protecting them in your farm, caring for them, then taking their life in a short, humane way?
First of all, if you read the article, you would realize I’m NOT endorsing factory farming. Secondly, your statement, “98% of animal suffering and exploitation comes from factory farming” – how very scientifical of you! What paper is that from? So are you saying animals in the wild never suffer? There are FAR more animals in the wild than being raised for meat, and how animals die in nature is generally much more painful for them than a quick bullet to the head and a slit to the throat. It’s not about “taste”, this is about science. If you were actually involved in food production on any level, or had any science training, you would understand that vegetable production REQUIRES animal inputs. If you’re looking to cause the least amount of harm to animals, killing ONE cow is much less harmful than all the other critters that die for your plate of grains and produce. https://www.morehouse.edu/facstaff/nnobis/papers/Davis-LeastHarm.htm
True, we were created from dust and in dust we shall be turned that’s why if we eat vegetables that grew on this dust we will become canibals. This is ridiculous
If there’s one thing I’ve learned from these comments, it’s that veganism has a severe negative impact on reading comprehension.
This comment wins!
Why are you being so passive aggressive against veganism, Diana? Why does it have to be this or that? I was Paleo for years until I went vegan and I’ve never felt better, physically, spiritually and mentally. If this article is to teach anything to anyone, it’s that we all process life and death differently and live healthier lives with different diets. It’s not impossible to be anything. Plants are living things and die so us vegans can live but eliminating death is not the basis of veganism, it’s causing the least amount of harm. We have compassion for living creatures and cannot fathom harming them just for our enjoyment of eating them. I think the number one thing wrong with veganism is the extremists, but we are all not like that. I commend you for you humane farming and the way you raise your child to know where her food comes from. We need more of that! But please don’t bash on one lifestyle to try and prove yours is superior. We are all different with different needs.
Nothing about this post is bashing. The above comment about people who are defending veganism not being able to comprehend is pretty true based on the silly comments here. People were assuming A LOT – that I’m endorsing industrial agriculture, and that I don’t care about animal welfare. This is so far from the truth. The least harm in death is likely a bullet to the head, not dying at the hands of a coyote ripping out your intestines. Animals in nature don’t typically die in a “humane” way at all. My post is about understanding that we are ALL animals, and that in the web of life, everything is codependent. You can not simply raise vegetables on dead vegetables – you must have animal inputs. If you must have animal inputs, how do you get these animal inputs? I say, we should give them a good life, slaughter them in a humane and respectful way, eat them, and recycle the rest of their bodies to grow more food. This is simply how nature works.
this is what is wrong today children are not seeing real life they are seeing a glorified version and not experiencing what happens to get food on their plate. where do eggs come from . a carton! what i see is slowly people are realising this and now educating their children more on where food comes from and how it is made. thankfully. keep up the good work and great parenting.
I wish I could insert a crying Jordan meme for everyone whining about it.
You don’t want to eat meat, don’t.
I am currently gnawing on a particularly juicy piece of steak that was humanely raised and killed. You don’t get any. No gains for you.
I don’t go to church, but I also don’t stand outside or troll the internet and attack every person for their own choices and/or beliefs because they’re different from mine (You know someone else that does that though? ISIS. Don’t be like ISIS).
My parents taught me to respect others different from me, perhaps yours should have done the same.
Thanks for all the great reads Robb, and Diana, wonderful article!
Thanks for sharing this wonderful story.
This article really struck me. It made me thing, pissed me off and in some ways offended me. But what I would like to point out is there are vegans in this world that chose this lifestyle for reasons BEYOND animal suffering. Yes, factory farming contributes to more pollution and greenhouse gasses then every plane train and automobile on earth. Yes the over comsumption of meat is ailing our population, and yes on a factory level is ecceptionally immoral and cruel. But after nearly a decade of being vegan (and going through pregnacy with and raising an exceptionally healthy and smart child as such) I learned the first day I became vegan that I ultimately vote with my money. By avoding meat I cast my vote that I care about pollution, I care about ethics and I care about my health as well as the human population. Yes, we all can made good choices but do we? The answer is no. There is a plethora of the population thats wont or cant access humanely raise farm fresh meat. Unfortunately grocery stores are the main source food purchasing for many. My parent own a farm. Do I suppost that? Absolutely! But will I support some politician filling his pockets with with money to subsudize cheaper corn to mass produce cattle to feed the masses meat at low low prices. No. So do I care if my parents slaughter animals? Nope. Do I judge them or refuse to eat a dinner with them when they have prine rib on thier table? Nope. We all have a choice and just like I choice to stay away from meat, I also choice not to blatently point out the errors of others ways or logic. I dont care what anyone does. I made my own vote silently each day. But I find it offensive to point out no one “can be vegan” with some crocked up tail about how the lamb feeds the kale. Yes there is science and lofic behind that statement but to assert that the billions on gallons of blood and guts and feces pumped out of factory farms into rivers just feeds l plants we eat somewhere else is wuite literally hogwash yes these small fams do contribute that way but on the grand scale. No. Thats not the reality and also saying animal protien is superior to plant protien is also rubbish. This has been a falacy that has been disproven. Dont push your meat eating agenda by making things up. I support your right to continue to eat meat and slaughter your animals. But support my choice to eat what I like and not spread old wives tales about what you dont know much about. If I can grow a healthy vibriant baby inside my vegan body and raise that child that way (who by the way is in the 90th and 100th percentile for height and weight, as well as test several years ahead on cognitive, language and learning skills) clearly there must be something to it. So please. Continue with your farming, I admite the farmers in this world as my parents are right there with you but let us vegans be. You should already know we wouldnt want to hurt you anyway 🙂 .
I NEVER said that I support factory farming ANYWHERE in this post. I choose to go with “Science and Logic”, as you say.
I in fact DO support your RIGHT to eat whatever you want. I completely support all freedoms, especially food freedom. Animal protein is, in fact, superior to plant protein. It has a higher biological value and is better absorbed than any plant protein. All protein is NOT alike. Plants are not complete proteins. I’m not sure where the facts are failing you here. So where I think it’s fine that YOU eat a vegan diet, I do fully believe it’s incredibly dangerous to raise a baby on a vegan diet. I completely agree with Nina Planck on this one: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/17/is-veganism-good-for-everyone/a-choice-with-definite-risks
I just think it’s quite depressing to hear people trying to compare a carnivorous animal (coyote) to a species that has a choice (omnivore). Not only that but humans have way more intellectual capacity than a mere coyote. I’d also like to add that the paleo diet is a great way to clog your arteries and take away your most vital source of energy (carbohydrates). You need stored glycogen in your muscles in order to have maximum potential energy. Our body comes equipped with multiple enzymes in our body thay are used to break down carbohydrates including in the saliva. Saying that some vegans have a disconnect with reality because they don’t want to look at nature through the eyes of a carnivorous species is just a dull and very poorly thought out discussion. We have been equipped with the ability to eat fruits and veggies over meat and a brain, let’s use it unless you are literally as stupid as a coyote.
The definition of an omnivore is not “choice”. omnivore [( om -nuh-vawr)]: An animal whose normal diet includes both plants and animals. Human beings and bears, for instance, are omnivores. That’s directly from The American Heritage Dictionary. Humans are animals and we have a species specific diet, which includes meat. This is why vegans are not able to maintain their health eating only plants. Vegans must include a lot of supplements in order to try to maintain their health, and even those supplements like B12 are insufficient compared to animal flesh. Humans have been eating this hunter gatherer diet for centuries – and the “artery clogging” has really come from our dependence on highly processed industrial foods, not from eating meat. Heart disease was a pretty rare thing even 200 years ago. Yes, I’m very aware of the enzymes that digest carbohydrates, the paleo diet does not exclude plants or carbs in general. It’s important to understand that humans are animals and that we have evolved to thrive on plants AND animals, not just plants. If we could thrive on plants, our digestive tract would look a lot different, and vegans would look and feel a lot healthier than they do.
“Vegans must include a lot of supplements”? What a load of crap. I don’t take a single vitamin supplement and all of my vitamins are in the healthy range. However, I can all but guarantee that you supplement just as many vegans do. Most processed foods include added vitamins and minerals.
Yikes! So where do you get b-12? Even vegans agree that supplementation is necessary. And most people reading this blog, especially the author, are not eating processed foods. So I’m not sure why you even made that argument.
Diana, thank you for this post and sharing a wonderful life moment.
This was a great story, and the point made in it was something most people need to hear.
It’s amazing that a ten year old could connect the dots like that, yet all the people who chose to jump right down to the comments without reading the ENTIRE article can’t.
There’s hope for the next generations. We might be screwed lol
You dont understand the scale at which we humans cause harm to animals, you dont know the definition of Vegan, and sadly your manner is still self serving; but soon you will wake up and understand that there is a better way to be, to live, to exist. I know because I was once like you. This thing that’s happening, Veganism, is a spiritual response to our self destructive behavior, to assure we survive as a whole. It doesn’t matter if you believe me, I am here to tell you it’s happening. Rise and shine 8)
Wow as always, am amazed how so many believe vegans to be these unhealthy, supplement taking people – maybe look at some winning athletes like ultra runner Scott Jurek… he is just one.
Yes everything we do in our daily lives impacts on the environment, vegans simply choose to try and follow a lifestyle that includes more compassion and less environmental impact. It is odd that we has humans who are so far removed from nature (the explanation of composting in the article are indicative of the lack of knowledge) are quick to try and use it as a reason why they eat meat… Interesting take on Nature as our guide here http://dailypitchfork.org/?p=813
and really humane slaughter house – I challenge all believers of that myth to visit one and accompany the animals through the process, as you would if you were living in Paleo times
Jo do you know when the paleo era was. I don’t think there were a lot of farms during that time.
WTF have I just read? Is it even impossible that the human race can be so retarded to justify the farming and slaughter of 70 billion animals per year due to the excuse of “animals eat animals”? Truly the zombie apocalypse is already among us roaming as flesh eating brain dead animal corpse munchers.
The difference is, animals kill in the wild to survive, we kill… why? Just because we can? Because we want meat so we’re willing to sacrifice the whole life of another being to satisfying a craving for a five minute meal? Because we don’t want to change, and we’re unwilling to be compassionate? There is literally NO reason for us to kill, and yet people are fighting for their “right” to take the lives of innocent beings! Wow.
Fae, please take a look at the human digestive system. It is very short compared to herbivores. We have one stomach and a fairly short intestine. To extract nutrients from plants takes a lot of time in the gut. If you look at a cows digestive tract you will see that it is very long, They have a four chambered stomach because it takes so much to break down the grass that they eat and that grass does not have a lot of nutrients. So before you rant on eating meat learn a little biology. Man was designed as an omnivore. And we have killed for food for a very long time.
“It’s impossible to be vegan.” No, but it *is* actually impossible to be paleo (if only the creator of diet fads researched what humans really ate in the paleo era (hint: it wasn’t factory farmed animals nor many of the foods allowed on the “paleo” diet.
But I digress. The author keeps positing that animal protein is superior and necessary. Nonsense. There are vegan body builders, triathletes, mma fighters, etc. and they will tell you that their performance improved dramatically when they made the switch to veganism. I’ve been a vegan for 12 years and am infinitely healthier, happier, more fit, I sleep better, I’m stronger and have clearer skin.
So if it’s not necessary to cause pain – and I’m living proof that it isn’t – why in the world do people work SO hard to justify killing innocent animals who never asked to be bred or born?
We literally rape cows – (beastiality) on”rape racks” to impregnate them so that we can steal their baby and then their milk (aka baby cow growth juice – never intended for another species), and kill both them and their daughters the moment they stop producing milk but unfortunately not before their utters become infected and swollen.
But sure, your farm is “kinder.” Why because you don’t use rape racks? Do you force your animals into pregnancy by choosing it’s mate and/or inseminating them? Real sweet. Because what, you pet them before you take their life? And when you eat out, do you never buy animal products because you’re almost certainly supporting factory farming.
Let’s talk about the fact that factory farming of animals – according to UN scientists – is the SINGLE greatest contributor to climate change – more than all the cars combined.
The truth is that (1) we absolutely don’t need meat, (2) there’s no such thing as “kind” killing – it’s KILLING, (3) if you care about your children and their children you should care about the earth and (4) paleo is a fad not based in anything prehistoric humans actually ate.
As for your daughter, she very obviously knew what you wanted to hear (hell I knew your preexisting view on food/animals within 2 paragraphs). Kids – especially at that age – are wonderful about playing to their audience to get a positive reaction. Remember her very real vicersal reaction to animal death before you justify unnecessary killing in the name of “oh but there are dead animal nutrients in the soil so that justifies our gruesome, cruel mass rape and killing of innocent beings.”
Oh boy Heather this is gonna take a while. Let’s just right to the ridiculous, why would you inject the idea of factory farming into the paleo era. An apples to oranges thought there. Now on to the next I and many others would much rather get the vitamins and minerals and protein the is afforded in humanely raised animals than from a bottle. If we were all the same them your claim to healthier than us nasty meat eaters would ring true for the entire world. But it doesn’t we are individuals with a myriad of needs and ways to satisfy those needs. If I harvest a deer or a rabbit or any other animal in the wild you seem to have the same argument as to cruelty. And now for bestiality, is a woman who choses in vitro strapped to a rape table. Do you have a dog of a specific breed, if you do then your point is moot. Plus “bestiality” correct spelling is sex between a human and an animal, artificial insemination is not sex. Factory farming is the worst, gee I thought it was us nasty ole Americans driving our gas guzzling cars and suvs. And just as a wee bit of information, there are more animals in nature than all the farms on this planet plus the 7+ billion people that fart every day, yes that is methane also. Do you know what caused the greatest extinction of life on this planet. It was an asteroid in fact there were two separate asteroids that caused major extinctions. Do you know what caused the “Dark Ages” that was a volcano. It is very arrogant to make the assumption that man can adversely effect the environment with out at least a million years of verifiable data. We have no where near that amount as of today.
Your truthes,
1. Show me your studies.
2. Do you believe in euthanasia for pets?
3. See previous comments.
4. So is Vegan and Veg.
As for your final comments that is your opinion. And by making that statement you vilify their parenting.
Heather you justify your position by berating those that have a different viewpoint. You base your ideas on half of the information that is available.
I don’t begrudge anything, I just wish that you could see all sides without the hostility.
Sometimes kids get killed in car accidents, so when I’m driving I make sure to swerve and take them out. Nature!
Kids are way smarter than we adults normally give them credit for. My fifth-graders are the ones who taught me how to teach, not college. Surely you’ve seen this before in your kids?
I eat plants. I raise my own meat. I eat fruit from my own trees without waiting for the fruit to fall to the ground.
I kill ants, mosquitoes, flies, and cockroaches.
Sometimes I kill mice, rats and foxes.
I don’t kill humans, however.
I’m genuinely curious as to what the vegan defenders here think about:
1. Human being abortion, and
2. “Morning after” human being birth control.
Careful Rusty, logic gives them a headache.
It’s a shame that there is so much hostility between vegans and paleo folks, when we actually have so much in common. If the few differences could be put aside momentarily we could actually have a stronger voice in the humane treatment of animals and the push towards organic non gmo produce.
I 100% agree with you. “Meatless Mondays” will not change the treatment of animals. “Cowspiracy” will not change the treatment of animals. Creating a market for humane animal treatment will change the treatment of animals. Thus, I choose to illustrate the difference between factory farmed animals and sustainably and humanely raised animals. I find it so fascinating how vegans like to come after ME, when the cookbook authors and bloggers who call for “boneless, skinless chicken breast” with no thought to how that meat was produced, get a free pass. Incredible. I applaud vegans for their intention, but disagree with their practice.
Hello folks. I’m a person who eats mostly plant foods, but also consumes ethically raised and slaughtered animals because of my personal ethics.
That being said, you cannot break through the cognitive dissonance of ‘ethical vegans’ who refuse to believe they can live without causing the death of animals. Once they make that cognitive leap into believing something that simply isn’t true, then it is lost. Do yourselves a favor and stop getting frustrated at the inability to do so.
You are 100% correct sir.
This was a great story and thoughtfully written. Phoebe is a sharp girl for sure, and she has figured out at such a young age what many grown adults somehow cannot seem to fathom – that life requires death. Thanks for sharing this, Diana.
Thanks Diane!
Killjoy here (raises hand).
Although I agree with the angle that you are trying to fortify regarding the killing and thus, consumption of animals, the moral of this story doesn’t exactly “absolve” us of the debate regarding veganism entirely. The consumption part is where we would technically be correct but this doesn’t preclude anyone from the conscious effort to not kill animals. These really are two separate things. I respect those who attempt to be vegan, especially if they don’t try to proselytize me to their way of thinking but if their motive is the avoidance of consumption, then I believe that they are well off the mark. However, their practice of active mercy is another thing entirely and I’m sorry, this article does very little to sway that directive.
Working on a much longer story regarding ALL of the reasons why vegans, although their heart is in the right place, have it wrong when it comes to moral, environmental, and nutritional reasons. I could have made this a much longer article and dove into more reasons, but if you’re interested in learning how their practice of “active mercy” is just not really the true path to animal welfare, read this: https://www.morehouse.edu/facstaff/nnobis/papers/Davis-LeastHarm.htm
You cherry pick the industrial vegan nutrition with the pasture method, so that you can suggest the kind of death comparsion you like to show.
Veganism is a very large spectrum, same as meat eating is.
So, since you promote “humane slaughter” (is this still the case if somebody like to slaughter your daughter, since she lived a happy live in his/her sense?) is it obvious to me that you like see yourself different from common meat eaters.
So it might be a nice idea to think about the fact, that there are vegan products, which are completly different in their impact as shown by you.
P.S: You promote something which is such far away from any scientific point of view, that even your rigged child is able to catch that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8
Do you really think, this is going to work in discussions with scientists?
What a specious argument! You’re not eating bones and blood, except in the very remotest sense, when you eat a vegetable. Vegans are vegans because we believe in the dignity and basic right to life for all animals as much as we do for humans (who are also animals.) The next time you chomp into a steak, imagine the terror of the baby of that cow, smell the fear of the baby as its mother is slaughtered, imagine chewing that dead flesh. Enjoy.
What about the rights and dignity of the plants? When you chomp into a piece of kale, imagine as it was ripped off of the stalk in terror and agony, and imagine it’s silent screams as you bite into it and it’s green blood oozes into your mouth.
Seriously though, things are going to die no matter what you eat. Death is and equal part of life. I’m not making light of the fact that animals are killed for food, and I’m not trying to ignore it and keep it out of sight and out of mind either. I embrace it, and think of all life as somewhat interconnected and symbiotic. I think of it more as life transfer than killing and taking. I think animals should be respected and appreciated when used. It’s not an enjoyable thing, but it’s not the most horrible torturous thing either, like you and many others try to portray. Yes, it is and can be done in horrible ways, but we don’t advocate that and believe it should be stopped just as much as many vegans do.
Ah what. They don’t walk out in the field and just dispatch the cow right there. Please use the brain Mother Nature gave you. You don’t elevate yourself by tearing down others.
Holy smokes you folks get a lot of trolls! I normally don’t run into that sort of thing, although I did see some in response to a recent PETA piece on the site.
I loved this piece. We’re all connected, and should in individual choose to eat meat, it’s best that the animal live a good life and have that life end as quickly and cleanly as possible.
Bravo on exposing your kids to reality and being there to help them sort through it all.
I have no judgement to anyone in the way they chose to eat. I, myself eat what I feel like eating. As a kid the thought of eating meat disgusted me so I choose not to eat it if I could. Now that I’m older I only eat organic, ethically raised meats when I need to as most meat we eat is caught by my family. It is normal for my people to hunt (I am native American). We have never survived solely on plant food, without meat our people simply did not survive. I hate the thought of animals being killed regardless of how they are killed but we still try to respectfully ( shot so they die instantly, tobacco laid down to give thanks for the sacrifice and all parts of the corpse is used). And I could never kill an animal myself but I still eat it and actually quite enjoy wild game (beef still grosses me out). We live in a world where most people buy their food from a grocery store or farm but if all that were to cease to exist over night what would you do? I hate to say it but I think vegans would be the first to famish
Children are brilliant. More so than adults, because the see things in black and white and without all the extraneous nonsense that we attach.
Love this post.
I have never in my entire “paleo” existence visited a vegan web site and bashed someone’s article and trolled like a moron. How do you vegans even get here?
And I feel sorry for Diana for having to repeat herself so much. These people are like talking to brick walls.
Diana: “No, I DON’T support CAFO or industrial farming”
Vegans: “so many animals suffer in factories”. Diana: “I don’t support factory farming”
Vegan: “so many animals suffer in factories” and so on. *Sigh*
People, did you actually read this article? Are you aware what this web site is about? Do you vegans have any idea what the difference between paleo and Standard American diet is?
Veganism is an unnatural, artificial diet of the rich that, unless you only eat carrots, fruits and raw potatoes, requires so much processing, ploughing, top soil death, mass murder of millions of animals and endless combinations of different foods in order not to suffer from serious deficiencies that I can’t imagine what’s so healthy or ethical about it.
Also vegans seem to think that we eat a quarter of a cow daily and nothing else when in fact Paleo is mostly based on fat, vegetables and moderate amount of protein.
It’s impossible to be a modern day vegan without destroying a forest or two so you can grow your precious soy. As a paleo meat eater I eat meat from cows raised on grassy hills that are useless for any type of mono-crop farming.
I take ONE life ( let’s say a cow ) whereas a vegan is responsible for hundreds of deaths just so they can have their tofu. Those comments about artery clogging meat diets refer to CAFO meat, seed oils combined with cheap, nasty carbs produced and processed to be as cheap as possible.
No one who is even remotely paleo oriented wants that.
Life requires death. without death, there will be no life.
So unless you are running in front of the combines clearing the fields of all critters, then replenish the soil with poo or something and then re-home every fox, mouse, rat, frog or other animal displaced by crop farming then I think you should all shut up.
Jake, thank you for making me laugh!
I am pretty sure that animals are happier than us, living their natural circle of life. And sometimes I even wish we had predators that would eat us, to see whether we would worry so much about the feelings of things we eat and if we should eat this or that or if finally we would act on the state of society worldwide and how unkind we are to one another. I have been very hungry growing up, I have seen people die of hunger. my brother chose to be vegan. I am not vegan nor will ever be. We love each other and support each other’s decisions. I wish people understood what the most important things are in life. Wonderful to see this child who is so sentient, so aware. Thank you for sharing.
Why are there so many vegans trolling on this site? Is that all they do? Browse the internet looking for fights? If you don’t eat meat, why are you on a site dedicated to Paleo eating? Sounds like these people need to get off their arse and go out in the real world for once and stop thinking that we are not a part of nature.
Like all True Believers, they overrun their boundaries and seek to convert the rest of us, so that they might live unchallenged by dissonant fact or opinion.
…………………………………
Recommend: “The True Believer”, by Eric Hoffer., 1st Pub 1951. Classic, still in print.
How to rig a child.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism
IF humans weren’t so bent on taste and purely worried about nutrition only. ..they would endorse a fully synthetic diet made in a lab. Im not even talking about lab grown meat om talking about synthetic amino acids, mct oil, carbs and minerals….animals are tasty yes but cmooon we are so outside of nature. We have the potential to be so much more. Lets use our dopamine pathways for other things. Sex, food and violence is so paleolithic. Its time to move on. Animals dont need to die because they taste good.
Roman-
Communists, socialists and other religious fanatics purport to know a way to unshackle us from our humanity. It always ends poorly.
I’d like to see a vegan farming, but really farming. Grains as well, since they love them so much.
I’d ask them after a few years, if it’s possible not to sacrifice animals and insects, not to mention microorganisms, for a fancy tofu or seitan.
It’s so easy being a fancy, urban vegan activist, while living in a fairytale bubble.
You’re one to talk. Bro’s on some internet feed contributing to more hate between 2 different food choices. If you actually stopped adding to the hate and watched some documentaries you’d see that vegan farmers do exist. STOP THE HATE. This is like 2 different religions fighting each other.
Nothing says “truth” like a documentary…
If all humans were vegan, there would not be enough surface area on Earth to farm all the vegetables we would require. Not all surface area is arable land. You can’t farm that intensively without soil inputs unless you will be putting human poop back into the soil where you grow vegetables. Monoculture of crops is not sustainable. Veganism is impossible in temperate climates without a lot of energy inputs over winter or without transporting food across distance with the accompanying energy use and pollution. If you redesign plant systems solely for feeding billions of humans this way, you will remove resources for most other mammals and there will be ecological collapse. Nature built a complex, interdependent system whose complexities we can barely begin to understand, and we think we can improve on that? I applaud and love the spirit of people who choose to be vegan, but it is not the answer for ecological systems, may not reduce harm of all kinds, and is certainly not healthy for my personal physiology.
Never mind that veganism simply means to avoid animal exploitation as far as is possible and practicable. I guess we’ve changed the definition to mean that your body has to be 100% pure and can’t ever consume anything that was ever living. can’t do that so I might as well kill an animal that doesn’t want to die simply because I’d rather eat it than some beans. thank god I’ve been absoleved of any sense of consciousness.
Haven’t we destroyed 80% of all the green because of agriculture.Killing all the insects,small animals birds,their shelters and homes and indirectly killing bigger animals too because they are fed by them?Now there are just so many left and suddenly we want to preotect them by not eating and odd enough still continue with agriculture.Besides Let’s suppose we allow all animals to live where on earth do you think they will live due to their overpopulation.Sterelizing is a more natural and moral thing to do ı suppose.This article has a good point that we will be forced to see lions tearing cows apart on the streets of New York in a all Vegan Future.
I have been Vegan for two years, I am an endurance athlete on top of that cycling any where from 100 – 200 miles per week. I am riding faster and better now at 31 then I did when I was an athlete in my early 20’s on a normal western diet. What am I getting at with this? That it is FAR from “impossible” to be vegan. Any diet poorly planned will result in feeling shitty and weak.
The way I see it, if we can cause less direct harm to other beings on this planet while w’ere here then why not? All life deserves a fair chance to live the life they want to.