The poliquin thread has generated a number of comments, all of them much appreciated. I’d really like to highlight this one from Saul who has a great insight:
Robb – Awesome post, I have never heard of CP until now. More reading to do now. 🙂 Thanks for taking the time to write this out, very helpful.
Regarding CP’s and other people’s take on CrossFit: A while ago, you had a post on the Weston-Price diet, specifically “… personal attacks leveled at Prof. Cordain for his position on Sat’d fat. Sally Fallon and Mary Enig have really taken him to task on this topic and not in a nice or professional way. It burns my ass because Prof. Cordain always conducts himself with class and professionalism. He sticks to the facts as he sees them, states his case and provides ample opportunity for rebuttal. This SHOULD be how scientific inquiry occurs.”
I find it interesting that neither MB or CP ever reference “What is Fitness” or”Understanding CrossFit.” It is this lack of interest in learning or listening that makes me wonder what they are really doing with their comments. Is it some kind of guerrilla marketing or are they really just that arrogant and unprofessional? It is a little confusing, but you did a good job of focusing the discussion. Maybe if CP reads this post he will… nevermind.
This is a pretty tight analogy here. Cordain has generated a body of work that describes where we come from, why we have our modern diseases and recommendations on how to change that. He has some foundational papers that look at the thermodynamics of hunter gatherer living and work forward from there. No one addresses this foundational message. They character assassinate him and start citing their own clutch of studies, completely sidestepping the underlying theory.
Similarly, the basic tenets of CrossFit are right out there for anyone who cares to comment on them to do so. Instead CrossFit is called a cult (maybe it is…it still does not address its foundations) it has no screening program (what screen trumps the functional movements?), the certs are $1,000(not even going to touch this one)…it’s all a bunch of bull-shit that never touches on the CrossFit Foundations, What is CrossFit? and What is Fitness?
There were some weak attempts to discredit the assertions that fitness is: “work capacity across braod time and modal domains” but as usual, no alternate definition is offered! Just a “I disagree…come up with something else…”
If you have an issue with a program or philosophy then offer something as an alternative. I can offer a counter point to vegetarianism that ranges from health, to resource allocation to morality (the least harm principle). Perhaps I’m wrong (I’m not) but if I’m going to go claim some group or philosophy is flawed, Im going to start with their foundations and work my way up to the relatively inconsequential minutia.
None of the “experts” are doing this. I think this is because none of these people have a fucking clue what Greg Glassman has cooked up: An open source approach to fitness that gives everything away…yet commands an ever greater market share. All built around a mathmatically precise defenition of fitness.
The vegetarian/high carb-low fat analogy is just too compelling to let go of. The Orthodoxy posited that fat was the cause of heart disease, cancer and nearly every other ill under the sun. The idea was very compelling…but wrong. When the Low carb researchers began countering the Orthodoxy the reposte was always a combo of “Low carb is dangerous…low carb is unscientific”.
Fuck.
Dangerous! Unscientific!
Scoobie! Get the the Mystery Machine out of here!
So the low-carb researchers would rebut the Orthodoxy…and the orthodoxy would change tact “did we say low carb was bad for your liver? No, we meant your pancreas.”
Low carb rebuttal
“Oh…did we say pancreas? We meant kidney”
And so it went. And so it goes.
The same story is playing out with CrossFit. Experts claim danger and a lack of science.Rebuttals are offered, subsequently ignored, and the tac changes.
An open market determines who really has the goods. 80% of doctors, when asked how they would approach loosing weight said they would do a low carb diet. Most do not recommend this to their clients and the why is another interesting post. Crossfit grows because it’s doing SOMETHING right.
All this said, the best technology in the world does not guarantee that a practitioner is a good coach or worth a bucket of piss as a human being. I’m not saying that. But the “experts” seem to demand a level of understanding and competency they hold no other practitioners to. I guess I’d like to know “Why?”
Â
Thanks again to Saul for the question.
Â
I’ve already got a shrine to you and CF started for the advent of the cult. By the way, what are your thoughts on kool-aid, and do you know when Haley’s commet is due next?
Brian-
I lean towards the lemon-aide flavor…my tin-foil hat has interrupted com’s with the mother ship…unclear on ETA for return…
I agree with nearly everything you’ve said. My disagreement? The fat hypothesis. The data was there, right under their noses and they ignored it. Ancel Keys’ data manipulation and the subsequent politics of that 3-named USDA scientist really piss me off every time I think about it.
So thanks a lot Robb.
Happy Turkey Day.
“…the best technology in the world does not guarantee that a practitioner is a good coach or worth a bucket of piss as a human being”
Best. Sentence. Ever.
HA! I have moments of inspiration!
Most creatures respond in an aggressive manner to perceived threats to their livelihood. CP is a lion on the savannah of fitness and CF is a new breed of successful pack-hunting carnivores on the scene that represent a potential threat to his supply of fresh meat. Of course he is going to lash out.
The problem is that no single person or method stands alone as the source of all wisdom and progress. Coach seems to recognize that and CF is much more open-source and inclusive as a result. The fact that CP can cite examples of progress at the most extreme edge of human performance is nice, but making a single individual a few percentage points better at what they already excel at is ultimately less meaningful than motivating thousands of individuals to attain comparatively larger percentage gains across the entire spectrum of health, fitness, athletic performance and quality of life.
I like the Paleo-analogy!! I completely agree with the relative significance of changing the fitness of thousands of people vs a few high-end athletes who are likely to be successful no matter what they do.
I just can’t stop thinking about your cyclists…
They do Crossfit, get stronger, better movement, and more capacity then go ride 100 miles and fuck up everything you have done for them. Although i am not a cyclist and hate anything over 2 miles i understand their psychosis. How many times have i said, ” Damn! my arm hurts!” Right before jumping on the pullup bar. I know its stupid but i do crossfit cause i like it. Call it my “idiot suit” (thanks pat) but my point is these guys that hammer on Crossfit, low carb diets and anything else that a little common sense could clarify know Crossfit is a great program and low carb diets are the way to a heatlhier life. They just can’t take their idiot suits off. Don’t blame them, just let them make a fool out of themselves and continue to do what you do.
Robb, my point is; you are a bad mofo and smart like no one i know. Don’t get in a pissing match or take offense to these fools just keep doing what you do.
Miss you bro,
see ya soon.
Dutch
Dutch-
thanks Amigo, that means a lot coming from you. Sometimes the nay0sayers need a rebuttal….the interesting thing is that as CF grows I suspect the antipathy will grow. Never would have predicted that.
See you soon! WOOOT WOOOT!!!
Poliquin’s spiel at T-nation always says something along the lines of, ‘When athletes want a gold medal, they go to CP’. Does anyone know any gold medal winners at the Olympics or other major sporting events that have worked with Poliquin? This isn’t a dig per se, I’m genuinely interested!
Regarding the opinions expressed by Saul and Robb, I couldn’t agree more. Well said, guys.
Jamie-
CP definitely has an impressive list of athletes he has worked with, no doubt about that. I think you can find a fair number listed at his site.
Robb- when you say methylated b-vitamin do you mean a complex or just B12?
No…it’s a methylated form of b6, b9 and b12 in particular. the jarrow B-right formula is a good one:
http://www.vitacost.com/Jarrow-Formulas-B-Right/pd_section-pr
as is the methylator product from poliquin.
Fair enough Robb, I was just being lazy. I do have a question however – what amount of protein do you recommend for crossfitters/weightlifters etc?
Obviously there’s a lot of speculation about true requirements – most people seem to say 1g/lb or more, though zone is much lower than this. Paleo doesn’t seem to have any specific recomendations that I can see. Do you like to see a certain level of protein intake as standard or does it vary with levels of the other macros?
Thanks for an excellent site by the way.
Jami
Depends on what you are up to. Mass gain requires higher protein intake…maintenance (ala zone/crossfit) requires less.
Say maintenance then. I’m 5’10 170lbs, don’t want to lose any more weight than I have done on zone, not fussed about gaining weight though I wouldn’t say no to a bit more muscle. Is there a rough amount to aim for?
I’m experimenting with higher protein and lower carbs, at the mo its 22P 11C 66F. If I’ve done a hard/long metcon I might have 1-2 extra carb blocks pwo. Does this sound reasonable or way off? Its early days yet so its hard to tell how I’m feeling on it.
J
Looks fine to me, whatever makes you run best. 42 Ways to skin the Zone offers some good guidance to dial that in.
Thanks Robb. I feel good so far so I’m just gonna see how things go, keep an eye on the scale and the mirror etc.
I thought you might find this interesting: http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0010062&ct=1
I’ve only read the abstract so far, but it looks interesting.
Good find! That pretty much hits it!
Robb,
James pointed me to Wilson for a good read on Coritsol. I’ve noticed a trend with Wilson and most sources regarding Adrenal disfunction or coritsol control: no caffeine! What say you? I know you’re an advocate (and minor adict) to a good espresso (or 2)…before bed. Wiley (Light Out) is also a big advocate of drinking coffee even though the book addressed cortisol as a relatively large portion of the book (more in the exercise-induced context, but still.). I also know you were on a pretty tight cortisol control program. Did you cut out espresso? I know each person is different and will have different sensitivities and hormonal responses to different levels of caffeine, but what’s your general feeling on it?
J
Alright mister!! Lets be clear here…I can stop that coffee ANY DAMN TIME I WANT!! Really.
Ok, I’m a little addicted 🙂 My experience with this is that a therapeutic dose exists and this can change given other lifestyle factors such as sleep, training status etc. When I’d well slept/rested and generally unstressed I can drink a tank-car of espresso and feel GREAT. If sleep gets impacted or stress is high I notice the same level of coffee intake will trash me. When I was repairing the adrenal fatigue I kept my intake to a pretty low level and I think that was a good (and necessary) thing to do.
The bottom line is there is a great deal of variability from person to person AND from situation to situation. I do not think a simple formula can be applied to this other than “At what level of intake does one feel best?”
WOW!! It seems to me like there are a lot of CFers with thier panties in a bunch. Last time I checked CP had a major passion for what he believed in and more importantly making it known to as many people as possible. any people holding his opinions in question should spend some time on pubmed and inform themselves. CP’s whole existence in his field stands on all of the very basic principals of science, and let’s not forget the countless athletes he’s helped to perform beyond the impossible! Yup I can be a bit of an asshole too when I believe people are dead wrong! Threatened?? CF’s mediocrity will never come close to matching his genius. He laughs at this kind of shit, as do I.. LOL get over it CF is the “aerobics” of the new millennium.
Poliquinfan-
Brother, you need to REREAD the post, and you need to listen to some of the podcasts and read some of the other posts. Charles is held in high regard around here. Did I not recommend the biosignature? Did I not recommend CP’s other programs?
Calm down, do some reading.
Charles Poliquin: Some of the athletes I have coached include:
Myriam BĂ©dard, 3 times Olympic medallist and world champion in biathlon
Marc Gagnon, world champion and Olympic medallist in short-track speed skating
Natalie Lambert, world champion and Olympic medallist in short-track speed skating
Pierre Lueders, Olympic Gold Medallist in 2-man Bobsleigh.
Al MacInnis, St. Louis Blues, Norris Trophy winner, strongest slap-shot in the NHL, Olympic Goal Medallist
Edgar Martinez of the Seattle Mariners, one of the most successful hitters in major league baseball.
Nanceen Perry, world record holder, 4×200 meters, Olympic bronze medallist in 4 x 100 meters in Sydney Olympics.
Sandie Richards , Olympic bronze medallist in 4 x 400 meters in Sydney Olympics.
Chris Pronger, St. Louis Blues, winner of Norris and Hart trophies, Olympic Goal Medallist
David Boston, Arizona Cardinals, Wide Receiver and Pro Bowl athlete
Poliquinfan-
I need to do an update on this…charles work is sold, obviously.