The Paleo Solution – Episode 68

Finally Matt Lalonde joins us for what will probably be the first of many visits.  Enjoy!!!

Download a transcript of Episode 68

Show Topics:

  1. Re-address Blog Comment from Jon from Podcast 57
  2. Insulin Resistance / Cod Liver Oil / PWO Carbohydrate
  3. Hashimoto’s Disease
  4. Best Diet to Gain Mass
  5. Matt’s Daily Food Intake

Detailed Questions:

1. Re-address Blog Comment from Jon from Podcast 57:

I think a discussion on what the re-introduction of foods and the subsequent reactions to them means and why would be very interesting as a podcast topic. The paleo concept has expanded a lot from the original ‘cavemen did this so you should to’ logic of guys like cordain (another thing mentioned recently on the show, how robb has become more science orientated because of matt lalonde), but I still think at times robb reverts back to the ‘re- introduce it and see how you feel’ logical fallacy too often, because I bet almost any food completely eliminated for 30 days and then re-introduced would have negative effects and may take a few months to re-sensitive yourself to, so a talk on why this matters (scientifically preferable rather than anecdotally) would be important. It needs to be more than just ‘gluten makes my joints achy’. I’m very surprised that some of your clients eat gluten, robb seems to think 100% of people should avoid it 100% of the time. Another thing is the constant reference to autoimmunity. I get that anecdotally people with these problems see benefits from paleo, but what relevance is this to people without autoimmune conditions? If dairy aggravates autoimmune stuff, what does this mean? Sometimes it seems like robb is implying that because people with (chrohns, rheumatoid arthritis, coeliac, hashimoto etc) get messed up eating a certain food that the food is bad for everyone, but they are a special population, and that’s like comparing the carb needs of a type 2 diabetic to that of an athlete. Again, i recognise this is a problem of the very broad audience of the podcast, but I think some more clarity on the real underlying WHYs need to be answered. For example the ‘these foods have only been around for 10000 years’ line, this is assuming a linear evolution, which many experts suggest is not the case, so maybe Robb could discuss why we did or did not evolve more quickly after the invention of agriculture (

2. Ben Wheeler says:

December 17, 2010 at 2:52 pm


I’ve been looking forward to seeing you on the show for some time now! A few questions from a fellow Canadian:

1. Could you please explain the difference between physiological insulin resistance and pathological insulin resistance. I think this is something that gets very mixed up not only in the mainstream, but in the low-carb/paleo community.

2. Cod Liver Oil- WAPF says yes, Cordain says no, who do the lay people believe? Both have very good researcher on both sides. Could it be the problem lies with Cod Liver Oils that have been striped of natural A & D and replaces with the synthetic variety?

3. PWO carbohydrate- I know you wrote a stellar piece sometime ago on Low-carb and CrossFit. How has your viewpoint evolved from that experiment, and over time?

3. Debbie says: December 17, 2010 at 3:55 pm

Matt, ?I have really been working at being a Paleo health person. My only problem is I have Hashimoto disease. I work out five days a week. I watch what I eat. Perhaps more of a 85% paleo. What can I do to speed things along. I have been doing Paleo since May 2010 I have lost about 15 pounds, very, very slowing. Lots of tweaking with my thyroid meds and I continually tweak my food. Can you give me any suggestions? Thanks in advance – Debbie M.?


Diane @ Balanced Bites says: December 17, 2010 at 5:28 pm I’m going to throw my .02 in here before Matt (or Robb) gets to this one… if you’re not 100% gluten free, you need to be- as of yesterday. Seriously. So that 85% paleo… it needs to be 100% gluten free at a minimum! Datis Kharrazian talks a lot about this topic (the gluten-autoimmune thyroid connection) and I’ll be hearing him speak more about it next month here in the Bay Area. I’ll report back if there’s more.?


julianne says: December 19, 2010 at 9:07 pm Totally agree with Diane – I have Hashimotos. Get Dr K’s book and read it – it is useful, be super strict gluten free. Go 100% paleo. My anti-bodies are dropping since gluten free. Don’t go too low carb though, I’ve found so keep in a little good fruit like berries and good starches like sweet potato. Do the anti-autoimmune protocol in Robbs book, see if that helps. (Dairy and nightshade free). Make sure your vit D is around 45 – 50. Take omega 3. Be careful with iodine. It can cause a flare up.?

4. Ben says:

December 17, 2010 at 5:11 pm

Short and sweet: what type of eating would he recommend to a lean 31 year old, strict paleo for 1.5 years, 164 lbs at 5 ft 11 inches who is looking to get body weight up to aprox 180-190 pounds on Ripp’s Starting Strength program. I am only 1.5 months in and slowly gaining weight, and progressing on Ripp’s linear path, while maintain strict paleo; i only ask if Lalonde thinks there is another way of eating that would be more beneficial given my goals. If not, cool ill keep up strict paleo – it is after all very tasty and effective. I just want to know if he thinks this is the best path. Thanks.?Deas: update yer blg dood.?


5. David says:

December 17, 2010 at 5:27 pm

He mentioned in an interview that he only eats two meals a day. I am interested in how he get’s enough calories to support his performance efforts. When does he eat and what does it consist of – both workout days and rest days? Also, if this is an individual thing or if it is something he recommends for everyone?

References from Matt’s interview:

•Impaired cellular insulin binding and insulin sensitivity induced by high-fructose feeding in normal subjects. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 1980, 33, 273-278.

•Consuming fructose-sweetened, not glucose-sweetened, beverages increases visceral adiposity and lipids and decreases insulin resistance sensitivity in overweight/obese humans. J. Clin. Invest. 2009, 119, 1322-1334.

•Long-Term Effects of Moderate Fructose Feeding on Glucose Tolerance Parameters in Rats. J. Nutr. 1981, 111, 307-314.

•Alterations of the Intestinal Transport and Processing of Gliadin Peptides in Celiac Disease. Gastroenterology 2003, 125, 696-707.

•Gliadin Induces an Increase in Intestinal Permeability and Zonulin Release by Binding to the Chemokine Receptor CXR3. Lammers, K.M. et al. Gastroenterology 2008, 135, 194–204.

•Gliadin, Zonulin and Gut Permeability: Effects on Celiac and Non-Celiac Intestinal Mucosa and Intestinal Cell Lines. Scandinavian Journal of Gastroenterology 2006, 41, 408-419.

•Surprises From Celiac Disease. Alessio Fasano, Scientific American 2009, August, 54–61.

•Effect of Short-Term Starvation versus high-fat diet on intramyocellular triglyceride accumulation and insulin resistance in physically fit men Exp. Physiol. 2006, 91(4), 693-703.

•Influence of dietary fat composition on development of insulin resistance in rats. Relationship to muscle triglycerides and omega-3 fatty acids in muscle phspholipid. DIabetes 1991, 40(2), 280-289

•Fish oil prevents insulin resistance induced by high-fat feeding in rats. Science, 1987, 237(4817), 885-888.

•Physiological Compartmental Analysis of Alpha-Linolenic Acid Metabolism in Adult Humans. Journal of lipid research 2001, 42, 1257-1265

•Dietary Docosahexaenoic Acid as a Source of Eicosapentaenoic Acid in Vegetarians and Omnivores. Lipids 1997, 32, 342-345.

•Intake of a Diet High in Trans Monounsaturated Fatty Acids or Saturated Fatty Acids. Effects on Postprandial Insulinemia and Glycemia in Obese Patients with NIDDM. Christiansen, E.; Schnider, S.; Palmvig, B.; Tauber-Lassen, E.; Pederson, O. Diabetes Care 1997, 20, 881–887.

•Influence of Dietary Carbohydrate Intake on the Free Testosterone:Cortisol Ratio Responses to Short-Term Intensive Exercise Training. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. DOI: 10.1007/s00421-009-1220-5.

Show Notes – The Paleo Solution – Episode 68

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Categories: Podcasts


Robb Wolf’s 30 Day Paleo Transformation

Have you heard about the Paleo diet and were curious about how to get started? Or maybe you’ve been trying Paleo for a while but have questions or aren’t sure what the right exercise program is for you? Or maybe you just want a 30-day meal plan and shopping list to make things easier? Then Robb Wolf’s 30 Day Paleo Transformation is for you.


  1. Bill says

    I found the fasting without fasting comment extremely interesting. I’ve heard from several sources that autophagy (or is autofajjy, it’s hard to tell from Matt’s pronunciation) is extremely beneficial for long term health, but I could never commit to a 16 hour fast. I am hungry in the morning, so I usually grab a shake and can hold off till lunch no problem. Now, I know the general consensus is shake=bad, but I am trying to gain some weight and shakes are just so damn easy to make. The shake is usually just berries, coconut milk, cream and protein powder. Would I be better off taking the protein powder out of that equation in hopes of protein fasting? Or do the remaining shake contents still trigger the shutdown of autophagy in the cells? Should I stop shaking altogether? Will these questions and more be answered on the next episode of…THE PALEO SOLUTION PODCAST!?

    I got a little carried away at the end there…

  2. says

    Hey Guys,
    I know Mat said that the way he eats is n=1 but it sounds like something that would be easy and enjoyable for me to implement. The only thing is that I don’t have access to grass-fed meats. Could I get the same benefits by eating lean grain-fed meats, like ground beef with the fat drained out, and just throwing a bunch of Kerry Gold butter on top to get the CLA and such? Hopefully the answer is yes. Thank you. Great podcast.

    Show Topics:
    Re-address Blog Comment from Jon from Podcast 57 4.38
    Insulin Resistance / Cod Liver Oil / PWO Carbohydrate 25.30/41.25/44.09
    Hashimoto’s Disease 48.57
    Best Diet to Gain Mass 53.08
    Matt’s Daily Food Intake 56.36

      • says

        Thanks Allison. To clarify, I have access at Whole Foods and such but I know that I generally won’t make it there weekly or pony up enough dough to eat +1 pound per day either. I actually joined the CSA a couple of years ago that Mat talked about and their stuff was great but I ended up not using a lot of it because I didn’t have time or knowledge on how to cook all the various cuts. Unfortunately my schedule usually keeps me to cooking pounds of ground beef on the weekend and eating that for the week. I love it and usually end up back there. Sad, I know. Hopefully someday it will change.

    • says

      No, bobby, I’m not. What I’d LOVE however is for people to actually read the god-damn instructions instead of simply assuming they are at the high end of the scale.

      • Bobby says


        Just asking here so don’t get too mad at me, but if people are mistaking the instructions, isn’t it at least possible that the instructions aren’t effective? IF that’s the case, then…… you know.

        Just saying. Please don’t get mad at me!

        • says

          Bobby! Not mad at all but folks need to take some personal accountability in this stuff. Given the number of downloads I’d say 90% do it “right” with some folks just not paying attention. If folks are sick or inflammed, they benefit greatly from a large dose of EPA/DHA for a few weeks, then they can/should dial down.

  3. Wayde C. says

    As a very lean male with Hashimoto’s disease, raynaud’s syndrome and a history of childhood asthma, seeking to gain some muscle, what safe carbohydrate foods are left to eat especially post workout for recovery. If I adhere to that rather extensive list of Matt’s forbidden foods I would have to stop using white potatoes, sweet potatoes and goat’s milk that I presently use. Should I to also avoid grass fed ghee regardless of it’s lack of casein? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

    P.S. Eliminating iodine from supplements and iodized salt lowered my TSH from 9.5 to 3.1 (pmol/l) while allowing me to lower my dose of dessicated thyroid meds. FYI thyroid meds have iodine of their own.

    • Mathieu Lalonde says


      Taking a page from Robb’s book, try to stick to the recommendations strictly for at least 30 days and then reintroduce certain foods, one at a time, to see how you do. Are you looking for a carbohydrate source because of metabolic conditioning activities? If so, know that stress and high intensity exercise can increase gut permeability.
      Try to stick mostly to weightlifting and walking/hiking while you are implementing the recommendations for 30 days. Treat high intensity exercise like a food and reintroduce slowly and sparingly to see how you feel.
      You can use tubers as a source of carbohydrate. Yuca root (a.k.a manioc, cassava) is all starch with no fructose. Just make sure you cook it, or any other tuber, thoroughly. Avoid beets, given their high fructose content.

  4. says

    Andy & Robb, thanks so much for having Mat on the show. I’ve been working on being more scientific in how I explain and understand the whole paleo deal and Mat’s listing of his pet peeves and logical fallacies really help a lot. As someone who works with clients and gym members on nutrition, I want to be on top of my game, and having done a B.A. not a B.S. back in college, I’m having to shift how I think things through to be vigilant about not overstating my claims.

    I was also glad to hear Mat address the whole autoimmune thing as I’m dealing with that personally. I know that both Mat & Robb say no eggs but I’m wondering if egg yolks separated from the whites would be OK given the fact that what’s problematic with eggs resides in the whites (from what I’ve heard Robb say).

    I’ve been experimenting with local eggs from pastured-raised hens, only eating the raw yolk and ditching the whites. Would love to hear what you guys think…

  5. Mark says

    Mat continues to mention his dislike of fructose in the diet, but he doesn’t offer any maximum amounts. Is he saying to avoid it altogether?

    Apples, grapes and blueberries have about 20+/- grams of fructose –> does he recommend avoiding even these?

    • says

      Hey Mark,
      From what I’ve heard in past interviews with Mat, his view on fructose is that there is no need for it and therefore why try to guess how much the body can handle. There is a big debate right now (Alan Aragon, Dr. Lustig, Tom Venuto for example) around this very topic. As Mat said, fructose is a hepatotoxin, similar to alcohol I believe, therefore he’d rather just not eat it and play it safe. If you’re curious, Alan is in the camp that around 50g of fructose per day is likely safe, but again, that is very situational and hypothetical. Hope this helps.

      • says

        Mark R the Dr.’s Eades are much more conservative I believe less than half of Mr. Aragon’s suggested limits. I would need to dig my old copy of Protein Power Life Plan (I read all their books a while back and I think I remember their discussion in than one but I can double check). Dr. Miacheal Eade’s commented on this several years back on a fuctose post to his blog


        the final statements really brought it home for me: “…The interesting thing about fructose is that in small amounts it increases insulin sensitivity. The amount probably found in the average Paleolithic diet would make the entire insulin/glucose regulatory system work better. But more fructose than just a few grams is trouble…”

    • Mathieu Lalonde says


      As others have stated, fructose is limited in its usefulness to the body. Most of it is processed by the liver, kidneys, and fat cells. Glucose, on the other hand, can be used for fuel by any cell in your body. So you have the choice between fructose, a dose-dependent hepatoxin, and glucose. The choice is easy.
      The amount of fructose that can be tolerated depends on genetic variants as well as volume/type of training. Tolerated is the key word here meaning how much you can have without doing too much damage. If liver glycogen is completely full, than some fructose won’t hurt. In a sedentary population consuming a high-carbohydrate diet, some fructose does hurt. Observational studies have consistently shown that populations who consume more than 50 grams of fructose on a daily basis have problems with blood sugar control. The data is limited in its usefulness given its observational nature. Nevertheless, I like the 50g/day limit because it mirrors the limit for alcohol, which is also mostly processed by the liver. Now the limits don’t have to be identical since fructose and ethanol have different molecular weights but I still think it is better to try to keep fructose below 50g/day. Again, from a pragmatic standpoint, fructose is not a useful fuel and is potentially dangerous above a certain level. Why bother? And yes, you should minimize fructose from fruit. Some individuals seem to think that the vitamin C in fruit will some of the detrimental effects of excess fructose. Vitamin C does appear to have an effect on levels of uric acid (which was synthesized in response to fructose phosphorylation) but uric acid is merely one problematic aspect excess fructose consumption. Others seem to think that the fiber in fruit will prevent absorption of fructose. Ask Dr Harris about that:

  6. Betty says

    Robb, I have bought and read “The paleo solution.” Also, Mark Sisson’s book.

    The question on insulin resistance? I don’t recall this being discussed
    in either book?

    I get that Matt was saying, the insulin resistance on a low carb/high fat diet doesn’t=diabetes. However, something about the information scared me. I am new to paleo. Three weeks. I have lowered my carbs to generally less than 100 grams per day. I have noticed that I feel a burn (working out) in my muscles “early” meaning I don’t get much done. Also, last night for the first time my muscles felt “heavy.” I told my husband they felt much like a loaf of bread might feel after being soaked in liquid. Does this sound like I am going to low on the carbs?

    Also, I find that I love making my own coconut milk out of organic dried coconut. (avoiding gums) How much is too much? I am 49, five foot 3 1/2 pounds. I weight 112 pounds. I have auto immune issues.
    This severely limits foods. So, I drink 3 glasses a day now. Should I
    eat more protein with those calories? I am getting between 70-90 grams
    good quality protein. Strict Paleo.

  7. haig says

    My interest was definitely piqued when Matt was describing his experiences with fasted training on IF, as well as his warning regarding cheat/load meals.

    For context, I’m currently trying to shed fat and maintain lean-muscle on a paleo form of the ‘anabolic diet’ where I’m eating high-fat/mod-protein/vlc (meat, fish, eggs, butter, green veg) during the week, then eating high-carb/low-fat/low-no-protein (tubers, white rice, berries) on the weekends. I’m also doing a 16/8 IF and train fasted 5x a week (MWF:heavy compound lifts, TTh:sprints/bball). I may stop fasted training after hearing Matt’s insights regarding cortisol, but I’m adamant on sticking with IF.

    I’m worried about the weekend carb-loading phase. I know I need to include starches sometime in the week to replenish glycogen and feel better, but I’m unsure of whether my current weekend carb-up is fine or detrimental long-term, or if I should just throw in some starches pwo after lifting 2-3x during the week. I eschew all fructose except for what may be in a cup or two of berries and in sweet potatoes (on the weekends). What do you think?

    • Mathieu Lalonde says


      I’d ditch the cyclic low-carb approach and add carbohydrate, mostly from starch and glucose, post workout (especially post met con).

  8. Ben says

    Thanks for the great podcast.
    In terms of lifting heavy for muscle gain and the ketogenic diet would you still throw in the occasional sprint ala Sisson and DeVanny (for long term health)? If so would I presume it’s worth adding a little starchy carbs after this?

    Also Robb I remember you mentioned in a previous podcast supplementing with CLA if eating a lot of non grass fed meat. Unfortunately this is my situation. Is there anything to consider in terms of CLA dosage?

    • derrick says

      i eat organic grain fed meat also(hard to source and harder to afford grass fed/finished- especially when trying to eat 2-3 lbs of it a day). what i personally do to get the benefits of grassfed- besides supplementing with a little fish oil- is hitting the grain-fed with some pastured butter. that has good amounts of cla and vit k and other goodies that you are missing by not eating grass-fed.

        • henry says

          If one is in the same position, and is susceptible to negative effects from any dairy, would you recommend supplementing with CLA? or with Vitamin K?

          The source naturals brand is made from Safflower oil. Something tells me no, but am not completely sure.

          Or are the supposed benefits of CLA and vit K not worth going the supplement way?

          The next step is to clarify my own grass-fed butter and see how that goes.

          Thanks for the all the info!

          – Henry

          P.S. I can now die happy that Matt Lalonde has joined us on the podcast!

          • Mathieu Lalonde says


            CLA can be isolated from safflower oil but the end product doesn’t necessarily have to contain safflower oil or a lot of omega-6. Read the label carefully. Meat from grass-fed animals will contain CLA. No need to supplement if you have access to good meat. Otherwise, give the supplement a try and see how you do. Your body can produce its own vitamin K if the gut bacteria are in the right proportion and the gut is healthy enough to absorb it.

  9. Jon says

    That was a super dope podcast. The question/answer about eating ketogenic for a strength biased protocol got me thinking….

    Robb, (*read the entire thing before you flame me for wanting to do two different things at once) what would you recommend (in general) for a male who has some visceral fat and a medium-level strength base who wants to lean out and get stronger? Would you recommend 1) first getting stronger and then leaning out or 2) focus on eliminating the visceral fat while trying to maintain muscle mass and then subsequently focus on strength? More specifically, what would the exercise protocol look like?

    Former Crossfitter, I’ve got the book, listened to every podcast, well-steeped in paleo and biochem, so I’m not looking for a super-detailed answer.


  10. Matt says

    Loved the podcast. Mat LaLonde’s “Stupid air squats” comment is a personal favorite. I bought the Ferris book, and just couldn’t imagine doing those things to justify binge eating.

    • Mathieu Lalonde says

      Good on you Matt. There is some good info in the 4-hour body but i fell like it is mostly applicable to newbies. Anyone surfing these pages and listening to Robb’s podcast is beyond the information in that book and far more sophisticated. The nutrition part of the book sent me into a spittle rage it was so bad.

  11. Sharon says

    Nice episode! Was loving it . . .understanding everything, then Andy jokes about using met con to lean out, and Robb you say “Works great for chicks.” Your 6 woman listeners want to know if that is for real, and scientifically why? I have been focusing on lifting heavier and sprinting every once in a while to lean out (based on previous podcasts,) did I miss something big?

    • Geoff says

      There’s an adage thrown out that crossfit makes ‘women hot and men small.’ There’s a lot of truth to this based on the fact many women don’t workout intensely until doing Crossfit, as spin classes, yoga and ab circuits aren’t really intense training. It’s probably an ego thing, but male crossfitters tend to goof themselves up with over-training, inappropriate scaling and injure themselves, the combination making them lose muscle like crazy, which is why most male CFers are lean but very small, not to mention with sky high cortisol and low testosterone.

      Females on the other hand get a much better training stimulus from metcons, and as long as they don’t injure themselves seem to get better transformations as muscle loss isn’t as much of an issue. In the figure/BB world, many guys can get lean with just weights and diet, but women often need additional cardio to get really lean. CF is a fairly good form of intense whole body cardio if correctly programmed.

      I think robb may have discussed this briefly in the past, or he could chime in a bit now. This doesn’t mean that you should do 3 on 1 off dot com to get lean, but lifting heavy 3x/week, sprints occasionally and 1-2x/week of short productive 10-15 minute metcons (things like farmers walks, KB swings/cleans/snatches, some rowing intervals and bodyweight exercises) may help.

    • Jonathan says

      Yes! I loved listening to his clear, well-reasoned responses, and a book would be very welcome. Is there one in the works?

    • Mathieu Lalonde says

      No book for me. I prefer to proof read and make sure that the material that is coming out is quality. I prefer to do my slide show and modify things as I gain more information.

    • Josh says

      I’m really curious about this as well.

      Could it be to mitigate inwanted fat gain?

      Most mass protocals would probably call for SOME carbs, especially PWO; or a cyclic approach with the inclusion of carbs on certain days.

    • Mathieu Lalonde says

      Jeff, we were going to address this in a later question but ran out of time. It turns out that high-fat diets (>100g fat/day) decrease the levels of sex hormone-binding globulin, which has the effect of increasing cholesterol and free testosterone. You can read about that in the following paper: Dietary Lipids: An Additional Regulator of Plasma Levels of Sex Hormone-Binding Globulin. Reed, M. J.; Cheng, R. W.; Simmonds, M.; Richmond, W.; James, V. H. T. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 1987, 64(5), 1083-1085.

      • Sean says

        So basically, you need to make sure you’re consuming enough dietary fat otherwise your testosterone will plummet due to the raised cortisol and lack of carbs? Does the source of fat matter, such as animal fats vs. MCT’s?

        Also (sorry nutrition been here :P) does this effect from a high fat diet make a carb day unnecessary? Doesn’t low-carb for an extended period cause cortisol to rise?

  12. says

    Wow. MC Kraken did not disappoint. Droppin’ multi-syllable technical terms like they wuz atomic bombz.

    OK, seriously. It sounds like we can’t bag on milk for causing an insulin spike if baked potatoes are good to go now. I realize that there are all sorts of other nasty things in milk, but can we say that insulin spiking properties is not one of them? Seems to me that the insulin receptor burnout theory is pretty much dead now.


    • says

      You are trying to throw a net over all of this! Insulin spiking, both from dairy OR yams may be completely inappropriate depending on who the person is and their goals situations. Damage to the pancreas can cause a hell of a problem for some people, this can lead to exactly the problems related to the receptor down regulation.

    • Mathieu Lalonde says


      I don’t recommend milk to anyone. Fermented dairy is far better because the fermentation process destroys IGF-1 and reduces the lactose content, which reduces the insulin spike.
      Keep in mind that individuals with type-2 diabetes have poor insulin secretion due to beta-cell apoptosis. It is a really bad idea for these folks to eat foods that require an inordinately large insulin spike because they simply cannot deliver. As such, their blood sugar levels are going to climb even higher and even more damage will be done.
      Potatoes (peeled) might be OK for individuals with good insulin secretion and insulin sensitivity, not for individuals with blood sugar control issues.
      Dairy is not recommended to individuals with autoimmune disease due to problems associated with casein.

  13. Joe Brancaleone says

    It was nice to hear Mat’s thorough explanation on the problems with grains – not just gluten but everything else that comes along with gluten containing substances.

    The question I’ve been wondering … how much can we say with near certainty that this changes once people start talking about soaked / sprouted unrefined grains?

    • says

      I’m not sure it changes anything regarding grains. They are a poor source of nutrients and have other compounds that are harmful as Mat discussed. So why go through the effort to make the grains less problematic? You still end up with a nutritionally lacking food source. I just don’t see it as worth the effort myself, give me meat and veggies all day and I’m happy.

    • Mathieu Lalonde says


      Research has shown on multiple occasions that, with few exceptions, soaking and germination have minimal effects on the anti-nutrient content of grains and legumes. Fermentation is where it’s at and even that is not 100%. Even then, grains are so poorly nutritious that fermenting them in order to eat them makes no sense from a return on investment perspective.

  14. Anthony says

    Awesome podcast, Robb and Andy! And if listening to Robb doesn’t make me feel dumb enough, you put Lalonde on and remove all doubt.

    My wife has Hashimoto’s and has been working with a holistic practitioner who was taught under Dr. K. Her thyroid numbers have really improved. She has started using a glucommeter to kind of keep track of her BG, but the results have raised some questions. She eats gluten-free, dairy-free with little fruit. She’s 5’8″, 130#, CrossFits 3 days per week, works Saturday and Sunday in the Peds ER, from 3pm – 3am. Her fasting BG is always around 101, post-workout BG is usually in the 130’s (irrelevant of what she eats pre-workout or if she trains fasted) and she’ll get a BG spike eating a meal that should not raise it at all (I would think). For instance, yesterday, she had a few slices of Applegate Farms roast beef and some TJ’s plantain chips and 2 hours later her sugar was in the 150’s! I tested mine with the same meal and it was 89. I know we can’t necessarily compare our tests, but what in the world would cause this spike? Is this Hashi’s related, or do you think there’s another factor involved?

    Thanks alot for spreading the word. Can’t wait to hear Chris next week!

    • Mathieu Lalonde says


      The plantain chips caused the sugar spike.

      Keep in mind that the liver will release glucose into the bloodstream after a workout in order to feed the muscles. This is why Robb rarely sees HbA1c numbers lower than 5% in CrossFitters. Your wife also appears to have quite a stressful schedule, which is not going to help the blood glucose numbers from a stress/cortisol perspective.
      More sleep, less stress, smarter training all appear to be in order here. Keep in mind that stress (including high intensity exercise) increases gut permeability, which may exacerbate the Hashimoto’s symptoms.

  15. Jackie (singapore) says

    Matt Lalonde and Robb Wolf on the same podcast… Its like a dream come true! so scientific, so detailed, my brain’s fried by the time I finished listening to this podcast, LOL. Thanks Matt, Robb and of course Andy!

  16. Mike says

    Had a question of the algal DHA that Mat recommends in the podcast. Aside from being mainly DHA, is the main difference between that and fish oil that the source is algae vs. fish, which is why he likes it better? Is this something that would be superior to supplement with. I’m interested hearing Robb’s thoughts on this too.

  17. CanadianArcticPaleo says

    Mat Lalonde is a sociopath!!! I LOVE IT! haha

    Awesome podcast! AND I’d recommend to all getting his podiumlive seminar!

    Anything like this coming from you Robb? Ever consider getting one of your big seminars this year filmed?

  18. Eric says

    Hey Rob + Matt,

    Great podcast. Some excellent information that really hits home.

    In the final question Matt mentions some of the benefits and drawbacks on intermitent fasting. “If your a high stress person or have metabloic derangement, fasting probably isnt for you”… In regards to that question, I was wondering if I could grab some advice for me personally and host of other shift workers/emergency serivice personel.

    Im a Firefighter who works 24hr shifts and Ive tried fasting for the last while. I like having the caloric buffer for the odd Firehall meal, but Im wondering if its pointless given that I rarely get any nights where Im able to sleep straight through. I take my days at work off. Nap when I can. I nap when I get home from my shift. Strength Train 3x’s a week (Ala Eric Cressy’s Show and Go), Sprints 1 x a week, Metcon/Strongman 1 x a week. Diet is 100% Paleo and Ive just started moving towards grass fed beef. 1 to 2 coffees or 1 americano a day. Outlook is very positive. Im learning how to deal with stress better every day.

    Should I continue to fast or just ditch it given my circumstances? Im training to stay healthy, remain injury free and get stronger. Looking good naked for the ladies everynow and then helps too!



    • says

      i’ve written on this a ton, mentioned it in the podcast: If you are already quite stressed, IF may be a BAD idea. Are you making progress in training? Do you have fat in insulin resistant locations?

  19. Spanky McMcMc says

    Hey Mat, Robb and Andy,

    It was very interesting to hear Mat talking about why he (and you) are not fans of the cheat day, especially for diabetics. I now see more clearly why I feel ‘hung over’ the next day.

    Thanks again for all you do!!

    Spanky McMcMc

  20. Ken says

    I’m glad I listened to this one. The biggset point being–> Matt’s pet peeve that the same standards used to criticize opposite views should be applied also to the same-side evidence. Hallelujah! That inevitably leads back to the search for the actual truth, rather than just the ‘hooray for our side’ approach.

    It’s really much bigger than a mere pet peeve. Much bigger.

    I’m reminded of Lustig at the end of his Jimmy Moore interview, where he says that not much is known for sure and to check back in five years when everything might have changed. Bravo.

    Another notable point: that insulin resistance might not mean what everybody thinks it means. Things are complex, even more so when complex systems interact in a complex way.

    My own pet peeve is that seemingly nobody is willing to criticize the less-than-stellar things that Gary Taubes has been pushing (most notably the false mantra that ‘processed’ carbs are necessarily high GI, while unprocessed are not). Read a GI table or two, Gary. Think pasta, e.g…. aka durum wheat aka amylose versus amylopectin.

    For future thought and maybe discussion from Robb and Matt, is something that I personally haven’t seen discussed in any low-carb or Paleo setting: the phenomenon of the ‘single fatty meal’ and clotting Factor VII. That should give some insight about reaction to high fat meals… viz., the acute hypercoagulabity, possible subsequent thrombotic events, even the observable rouleaux of RBCs. The data I’m aware of says that either PUFA is worse that SFA, or that there is no difference.

    As always, there are worlds within worlds.

  21. Ken says

    A side note about fasting as a way to dispose of unneeded or harmful intracellular proteins: there is a newer cancer therapy called bortezomib which is a reversible proteosome inhibitor. The idea, as Robb most likely knows, is that when you stop up the ‘garbage can of the cell’ proteosome, you take a deranged cancer cell that doesn’t want to die and nudge it over the edge into committing hara kiri — because the buildup of extraneous proteins made by the deranged cell is the trigger.

    So that’s an example of the situation in an extreme environment. In my own simple way, I tend to think that sometimes going hungry is good because it burns off bad things inside the body. That could apply to the proteosome workings, and maybe also to handling fatty streaks in the liver. Conversely, in overfeeding, the body is too tied up in processing the eternally excess food intake so that it can’t take care of usual things.

  22. steve says

    Hey Rob great podcast. Question on fish oil. I heard Matt talking about DHA vs EPA. Would we be better off with supplementing with just DHA instead DHA+EPA fish oil? thanks..

  23. sam says

    I have been a long time follower of your show and i would just like to say that this was one of your most informative podcasts. Mat Lalonde was incredbily helpful and I can’t wait to hear from him again. thanks for the great work and keep it up!

  24. Amy says

    Hello, I’m so glad to have found your site a couple of weeks ago (I just got the Paleo Soulution book a few days ago). I have hashimoto’s and a whole bunch of various mysterious symptoms that doctors seem to think are unrealted (or nonexistent). It is amazing to hear that diet could help, my doctors have told me there isn’t anything I can do besides take my levoxyl. I have heard that cruciferous vegetables could be bad for my thyroid but those were not listed by you or Matt. Do you have specific advice regarding cruciferous vegetables? I sure hope they are okay because like a previous poster mentioned, I’m kind of running out of ideas on what veggies I CAN eat! Any list of specific veggies that are okay for most of the folks with autoimmune disease would be very appreciated!

    Thanks a bunch for getting this info out there!

    • Julie says

      Hi Amy,

      I had the same question! And the same problem as you. You might find this podcast helpful:

      Chris Kesser, author of the Healthy Skeptic Blog says it’s not too worrisome and best to focus on eliminating gluten above all else. I think it’s mainly the case of trial and error on what is appropriate for the individual, but I am seeing more results cutting out grains and leaving in the beloved few things left in my diet. (Meat & veggies – even “cruciferous”!!)


    • Mathieu Lalonde says


      Cruciferous vegetables do contain compounds called goitrogens that interfere with the proper function of the thyroid glad. Many, but not all, of these compounds are deactivated by the cooking process. There are more problematic foods, such as grains and legumes, to worry about.

  25. Austin says

    Great podcast! I was all ears for the mass gain question towards the end and excited to hear I was doing everything right according to the experts….until I heard Mat’s sentiments on GOMAD. I’ve been doing everything he described except having about 80% a gallon of raw grassfed milk from jersey cows per day also(A2 beta casein baby!). I couldn’t tell if Lalonde was anti-GOMAD for hardgainers in general or just because most don’t have access to raw. What gives?

    • Mathieu Lalonde says


      I don’t recommend GOMAD, especially not long term. Use it for a month or so if you must then stop.

  26. chewy says

    Did I hear correctly that sweet potatoes are a no-no for auto-immune sufferers? I’m a 123lb male, 5’6, 31 years old. I’m trying to put on some mass. If I eat sweet potatoes post-workout is that okay or should I stay away from it altogether until I resolve my Vitiligo?

    Assuming that I can’t eat sweet potatoes would you recommend that I substitute it with another starchy vegetable such as squash, and are there other options? I usually only hear you guys mention yams/sweet potatoes and squash when recommending a post-workout carb intake.

    And would you perhaps recommend that I avoid trying to put on weight altogether while I still have the Vitiligo?

    Thank you so, so, so much for your work guys!

    • says

      Chewy I’ve played quite a bit with canned pumpkin puree (the plain stuff not the sugar added ready made pie filling crap) I find it in just about any grocer in the baking isle(next to the above mentioned crap) for about a dollar on average. I think it’s yummy right out of the can but you can cook with it too, makes for really good addition to ground meat/stew as it’ll take on flavors quite well and doesn’t have it’s own super strong taste and usually you’ll get about 25-30 g of carbs and about about 10 g or so of fiber out of a standard sized can.

    • Mathieu Lalonde says


      Try to find a root that is pure starch like yuca root (a.k.a. manioc, cassava) and make sure it is very well cooked. Have some sweet potatoes if you must but again, make sure they are really well cooked and don’t over do it.

  27. Kurt says

    Great show. Have a question on carb intake. I am 48, 155#. I am doing cf 4-5 times a week. Should I do my carb eating exclusively post work out.? Or throughout the day? I have a excema skin condition which has been helped with the paleo diet, should I stay away from the sweet potatoes since they are a nightshade, and what other starchy veg do you recommend, or should I just eat more fruit?

    Also, my wife has Hasimotos and has been doing paleo for about 5weeks. Do you do private consultations. After listening to the podcast it sounds like she might need more assistance.

  28. Daniel Pastor says

    Mat and Robb,
    first off thanks for all your guys’ work its awesome! i’ve learned so much. just had a question for mat concerning his programming. those powelifting numbers are sick! just curious, could you shed some light on what you are currently doing in the gym. i read a post from you about a year ago that you were doing a MEBB 3 on 1 off sort of thing with powerlifting, oly lifting and some monostructural and gymnastics. are you still doing this or have you changed. specificity would be great! thanks again fellas, you guys are both beasts!

    • Mathieu Lalonde says


      Do a google search and find my email on the web. Send me a message and I’ll send you my training template.

    • Mathieu Lalonde says


      That is the only paper on the insulin index of which I’m aware. I wish someone would follow-up on the research and provide a more complete list.

  29. Alexander says

    Lots of cool topics in this podcast! I would like to hear what specifically is bad about GOMAD. What about a pint of milk a day? Or a pint of heavy whipping cream? Student on a budget here trying to gain mass, and even though I buy conventional meat I can’t afford more than a pound of meat a day and in addition to eggs I often rely on dairy for calories.
    I’ve read bodybuilders in the golden age relied heavily on meat/eggs/milk, but the milk would’ve probably kept them out of ketosis. So yeah I am unable to find any examples of people doing a massgain on a ketogenic diet. Wouldnt the low insulin be detrimental?

    Additional insight?

    • Mathieu Lalonde says


      Milk, especially that from recombinant Bovine Growth Hormone (rBGH) treated cows, contains a lot of insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1). IGF-1 increases the rate of growth, and aging. High IGF-1 levels can promote cancer and a host of other diseases.
      If you must, do GOMAd for a month and then stop. I simply cannot recommend drinking large quantities of milk over a lifetime.
      Fermented dairy has a much lower insulin index and little to no IGF-1 because the fermentation process consumes the lactose and destroys the IGF-1. Try eating some full fat cheese and yogurt instead of the milk.

      • says

        How about full fat whipping cream? Since it doesn’t contain carbs I’m assuming it has no lactose, and as long as its grass-fed and states it’s rBGH free than it should be good, right?

        Also, for the ketogenic diet you recommend, would you ever need a refeed day, or is long-term ketosis ok or desirable. I’ve never done a keto diet that didn’t have at least one refeed a week, although I’d like to not have to worry about the weekly binge/bloat/feel-like-shit cycle.

        • Amy Kubal says

          Whipping cream can be okay in some situations – it all depends on your goals and health status. Definitely get the grass-fed, clean stuff and don’t go crazy with it.

          As far as a re-feed day – again, this depends on your goals and health status. I would suggest running keto for awhile and then cycle back to a more traditional paleo pattern for a while. When you do ‘re-feed’ keep it clean – starchy vegetable based carbs, no gluten, no crap.

  30. Meghan says

    Hi Robb, I’ve bought several copies of your book for friends, but was wondering if you’re planning on publishing an audiobook for those other folks who claim they don’t have time to sit down with a book. Thanks!

  31. Sax says

    THANK YOU SO MUCH for mentioning Epic Meal Time in this podcast!
    I had never heard of this site before, and after checking it out my life is way better than before.

  32. says

    Robb, you’ve unleashed the Kraken. In the wake of his destruction, The Lalonde has revealed ten thousand gold mines. Thank you both.

    Also, Andy.

    I remember shouting (in my head) “THAT’S NOT A LOGICAL FALLACY” in response to Jon’s comment. Luckily, headphones can’t pick up my thoughts and send them to people on the internet.

    No matter how much evidence there is for something, the most rock solid evidence from authorities ever conceived, you still have to apply it to your actual life. Think the evidence for Relativity is a little shaky? Launch a satellite with a clock into orbit and after a month compare it’s accuracy with one on Earth.

  33. says

    Hi Robb, I have a profile on from the bad old days when I was attempting to get fit and failing before I found CrossFit. Don’t need to get into that I am on your side… Anyway I was giving some advice on fitness and nutrition to someone in the forum. Long story short I pointed them in the paleo direction as a starting point for nutrition and a fellow I think you have heard of Alan Aragon got on the thread to start a paleo headhunt. I think that you should maybe get mr. Alan Aragon on the podcast for a debate. What do you think? Although it might be like debating with a tape recorder… Sorry that was my rant. Thanks for being awesome. Cheers

  34. Scott Jones says

    Robb, Andy and Matt:

    I’m a little confused.

    I started doing the life line workouts from paleo solution and have made progress. I also followed the recommendation of working out in the morning in a fasted state. I would be doing fasting AM work-outs reguardless because I can find time to workout in the morning and I get too much reflux if I eat any sooner than three hours before a workout. I’ve lost 16 lbs since the start of the year and have about 65 lbs more to go. Matt reported having a bad experience doing the same thing while doing IF.

    Are fasting workouts the way to go for weight loss? What are the mechanisms that get turned on with fasting work outs that Robb mentions in the book? Was Matt’s case different because of the different focus – strengh or mass gain, couldn’t tell or the stress of IF? Am I missing something here?


    P.S. Andy – Please give an example of what a person with a “Frackin Fitness Base” would be able to do. I’m sure it’s something you know when you see it but some guidance would be great.

      • Scott Jones says


        Thanks for the reply. Will you expand on the mechanisms that get turned on with fasting morning exercise that are so beneficial for weight loss?

        Would a “Frackin Fitness Base” = Level 4 Crossfit’s Level II intermediate athlete?


        • says

          When insulin is low fat is VERY easily mobilized. BUT if intensity is too high in this fasted state, cortisol is released which elevates glucose levels, and subsequently insulin levels. Have you read the book?

          • Scott Jones says

            Thank you for the reply.

            Yes, I have read the book cover to cover and went back over some sections. I guess I didn’t assimilate the material well enough while reading in the john. I’ll give it another try in another venue.


  35. Chris says

    Just when you think you have paleo down to a science….a french Canadian shows up and ruins everything!! (sarcasm)

    1) We have been living and preaching a logical fallacy by stating hunter gatherer populations did not suffer from diseases of modern civilizations therefore if we eat a hunter gatherer diet we will not suffer diseases of modern civilizations. Or would it be better finished by stating: we may lessen the Chances of contracting/developing Western Diseases? I believe Gary Taubes states this an oodle load in his book and I am pretty sure I have heard this totted around the paleo camps for quite some time….now its wrong?
    2) Frenchy then quotes “Our Paleolithic ancestors evolved over millions of years while not consuming grains, legumes and dairy, so we should not consume these foods because we are not adapted to them.” He talks about plenty of species who find a new food and thrive off of it….I thought it was the opposite. Again Taubes sites several studies concerning tribes who took on a western diets and contracted western diseases and even one step further that those same tribes now disease ridden moved away and switched back to original diet they once had pre whitey and were able to shake off the contracted disease. I thought the examples used of Egyptians who took on agriculture and developed more brittle bones, bad teeth and diabetes is an example of this as well?
    3) Glucose from starch no longer problematic? Fructose now problematic? I thought it was Some fruit—Little starch, seems like some starch- no fruit? We don’t need to include fructose any longer?
    4) Gluten = death is BS? Gluten is Ok now? WTF? I don’t know if I heard this right. Only if a person suffers from CD should stay away from gluten but all others are ok to consume gluten. Grains over all though STILL DO cause gut irritations/ inhibit digestion/ cause over all problems.
    5) Grass fed dairy ok?
    6) Low carb dieting is out? Body needs glucose? But the PWO chow that Robb has promoted has changed? We should now aim for starchy carbs PWO only?
    7) What is the dose of fructose needed to refill liver glycogen? It sounds like a little dab will do ya.
    8) No cheat days? Ever….never…..cheat meals tho? Ive been following a LG IF approach so this is contradictive, no? (Literally in Martins latest post he spent 2 days eating roughly 4-5 lbs of cheesecake)
    9) Matt doesn’t do well with IF and wods….I believe I do…chalk that up to just his experience and not cookie cutter? Is there anything wrong with it? I fast for 18hrs and sometimes workout and then don’t eat for 3 or more hours after. Energy is create, workouts are great etc. No noticeable problems….yet….
    10) Matt doesn’t do well with fructose (he said) does this mean that everyone as well falls into the same category? I couldn’t help think of Glassman going off on Robb for shooting down gluten just because Robb has a problem with it (although my eyes almost got stuck in the back of my head when Glassman said this).

    Im being pretty sarcastic in all of these questions but I am concerned. I was under a certain thought pattern and Matt showed up and kind of pulled the paleo mammoth skin rug out from under me. I just want to make sure we are all in agreement and have the facts correct. Moses I am away from the site for 4 months and everything changed :(
    Thank you for any response.

    • Chris says

      Oh, also I forgot. Concerning Mat’s big meals 2x daily is it a myth that the body can only absorb so much protein in a setting? Or because it take him 2hrs to eat a meal its slower ingestion = slower digestion? He said that Robb was concerned about total daily Cal, is protein in grams against BW no longer a worry?
      Thank you again!

    • Jesse says


      While I’m not Robb, Andy, or Matt I can offer a little more possible clarification on a few of your points:

      1. Matt’s issue with using the “HG’s did this, so we should too.” was that it was a weak argument that ignored other factors such as stress, sleep, activity levels, and so on. He went on to say that analyzing WHY they ate that way and using it as a baseline for experiments today is a good idea. In another part he mentioned the issue he had with people who practiced bad science by looking at what our ancestors did and then tried to find current studies that would back it up (they automatically assumed that what they were doing was correct) without really looking at the mechanics.

      2. The issue with the food introduction wasn’t about introducing grains, it was with saying that introducing a new food when a particular species hasn’t encountered it before isn’t always a bad thing that keeps the species from thriving. Inuit who have never had fruit before wouldn’t likely suffer much from encountering it if they had ventured to an area with fruit. So the argument that it is detrimental to introduce a food that a species hasn’t specifically adapted to eating isn’t based on a stable foundation. He’s not saying that the introduction of grains wasn’t a bad thing, the issue is with using the introduction of any food that hasn’t been present in a diet as a reason to not eat it.

      3. Matt’s explanation of this is pretty self-explanatory. He feels glucose isn’t bad, particularly from certain starch sources…but fructose creates a bad reaction in the liver due to the increase in glucose uptake it creates (among other things). As with all things that Robb/Andy/Matt/Anyone says, “Do your own research if it doesn’t sound right.”

      4. You did hear this wrong. He didn’t say that gluten is ok or that those who who don’t have CD/Immune issues SHOULD eat it…just that its not as big of a deal for those outside the CD/Immune realm if they consume it. The real danger for most is the OTHER things gluten-containing products typically have in them. Essentially, “Gluten is death is an over-exaggeration for most people, but that doesn’t meant you should eat it.”

      5. Grass-fed dairy is preferred to normal varieties, especially if you get fermented sources (yogurt, cheese, etc.) Robb disagreed with him.

      6. Again, for certain folks…yes. Re-listen to it all.

      7. No clue. Google it?

      8. Again, different strokes for different folks. I think the may point was against MASSIVE cheat day benders, whereas I believe Robb has stated that the occasional, reasonable cheat meal isn’t the end of the world. The whole issue still goes down to re-exposing yourself to gluten/processed grains/etc for no apparent purpose. No one NEEDS a cheat day.

      9. Matt said he didn’t do well with fasting before the CF wods he was doing when he was really lower carb. He mentioned just not liking his energy levels for a normal fasted workout either. This 2nd one may or may not be just how it works for him. The first one though, he explains quite thoroughly…its an issue of being low carb, doing met con work, and then gluconeogenesis not keeping up with the demands of his brain’s glucose needs. Variables to consider: different genetics, relative/absolute intensity (Matt may workout harder than you), and so on.

      10. Matt said he didn’t do well with fructose. Fact. He also explained why its a bad idea for most people. He didn’t say you shouldn’t consume it because it made him feel bad, he outlined the exact mechanics of why he doesn’t think people should consume it due to the physiologic effect is has on the body.

      I realize most of your questions/issues were “sarcastic” but if you really want to get the facts straight and find out why/how/if things have changed you should really just lay out what you want to know straight, with no sarcasm. I honestly think you’d get a better response.

  36. says

    Hearing the Cracken on the podcast today made me realize that I know nothing. Please tell me what you think I should do in my situation: I am reversing my MS using everything I can possibly find about nutrition and MS, I started with Swank, moved on to Best Bet then to you and Cordain (and now on to Lalonde?). It is working. Because I am so in awe of my success on this diet, I put myself out there as someone who is reversing MS, which I had no business doing because I already have a full time job. I also have a 1 year old and 2 year old. And I feel like a total fraud after hearing Matt Lalonde. I can’t be talking to people all day long about reversing MS even though I want to and it’s because I realize I don’t know enough science to explain exactly what is going on, physiologically. So (before I realized I know nothing) I started a discussion group where I try not to answer questions about science, I refer people to the ‘resources’ page in the hand out. Which basically says read ‘The Paleo Solution’ today. There’s a lot of books on there actually. Ok, so should I stop talking to people completely and go back to school and learn this stuff for real (which I don’t have time to do but will make time)or keep going forward in some way trying to help people without actually knowing anything? My motivation has nothing to do with money, it has to do with being unable to shut up about all this. And I know enough to employ these suggestions to the extent that they have caused my auto immune disease to reverse.

    • says

      So, you are asking if you should stop sharing your personal experience of reversing what can be a fatal disease….with a simple dietary intervention? Whitney, you do NOT need to “know it all” you articulate the basics, tell peeps to read the book, and know that you likely saved or dramatically improved their lives.

      I largely helped get The Kracken started in all this and now he is one of MY teachers. That’s awesome!

      • says

        Ok. Thanks. I needed that. And thank you for your incredible work. That is awesome about you birthing the Kracken. If you’re ever in Wilmington, NC the jet ski rides are on me. Find me at Crossfit Wilmington tackling inspired programming by Tony Cowden and his crew. I’ve met a lot of injured combat vets there who have come back better than ever because of eating this way. My reversing MS is nothing compared to the American heroes who have used your ‘simple intervention’ to come back to full life. You’re an American hero.

  37. Ehayes says

    I think you missed some important points. I think the cause of disease are still the same and were mentioned as such in the diabetes topic as an example, chronic excessive carbohydrate consumption and with association to grains, legumes, dairy, antinutrients, leaky gut and n-6. No confusion there. Diabetes is the mother of
    Metabolic syndrome.
    Robb has been mentioning for a long time that certain carbs (roots, tubers, etc) may be ok and even desirable for certain people. Still not for metabolically deranged people.
    Still gray area with dairy. Some people thrive, some people don’t.
    He did say some people aren’t gluten intolerant , however, he also said that no grains are simply just gluten. All grains contain a variety of antinutrients, when put together, = bad juju. Synergistic
    IF is highly dependent on the individual and associated lifestyle factors
    No change there.
    IF training can be good if you don’t release cortisol instead
    Matt says no fructose, ever. That is new I believe. I thought it was beneficial for
    Glycogen repletion. Lustig says 50g/day is hepatotoxic, but
    Elite athletes can have as much as they want when engaged in intense physical activity.

  38. Chris says

    Thank you for the response and your suggestion on my approach of laying out straight forward questions to receive straight forward answers. I saying I was being slightly sarcastic was only used because Robb or anyone else cannot judge tone, dictation and demeanor through text and it is harder to tell when I over use such symbols: !,? especially in combination. I just didn’t want either Andy, Robb, Mat to think I was kicking and screaming at them. But don’t get it twisted I was massively confused (still am kind of). I assumed that by Mat being on the show that Robb was in agreement with Mats said advice and knowledge unless Robb said out loud otherwise.
    Here is where I am still stuck:
    1) Paleo’s argument (I thought that’s is where it came from) vs Mats is understandable and yes I now agree with Mat that those said factors are important variables that we should not throw out or ignore in the equation BUT I thought this argument For Paleo was based off genetics. If I remember correctly stated something like ‘the human genome has changed only 0.01% since Paleo times therefore our bodies are not designed to eat the modern processed foods. Looking at FAQ section it still basically points a finger saying this is how they ate back then and were healthy and this is what’s wrong now based off of what we eat (American Diet) so we should revert back to this Paleo way of eating.’
    2) Understood, But I had assumed (I know how to spell it) that the introduction they were talking about were grains, sugar, chemicals that caused problems not something like fruit. I can’t think of incidences of natural foods being given to a population who has never encountered those foods and that population in turn suffering from them. But I know in Taube’s book he cites several tribes who took on a Western Diet, contracted illnesses and in some cases went back to their old eating habits, and reversed the illnesses.
    3) Got it just didn’t want to believe it. It seems like our list of “Meat and veggies, seeds and nuts, some fruits, little starch, no sugar no grains” that a lot of us have been preaching for years now is being cut down more and more basically to “grass fed, free range, wild caught meats only, veggies, seeds, little starch, tits or GTO with sugar and grains.” But it sounds though if I carb restrict enough and deplete brain glucose and start seeing black holes in OPT workouts I can go ape poop at Ben and Jerry’s?! If that’s what it takes I’m down sir.
    4) If gluten=death is an exaggeration BUT still we shouldn’t really eat it because it won’t really cause problems it’s just dead weight (no nutrients, no absorption, retarded calories) why even say it’s an exaggeration? It still holds water and was some kind of weird tease where I started making a list of yummy things to stalk up on and then BAM he took my list away from me. That punk azz took it all away from me……..And I heard it right, because that’s what I said.
    5) Disagreement heard and had. I am somewhere on both sides of the fence as well. I was raised off of Nesquik (SP?) as a young lad. I drink at least 2 cartons (2 gallons) every weekend, and no that is not an exaggeration. I have gone 25 years without ever breaking a bone. I did suffer from other illness but never in a cast…don’t know if that’s a good trade off now that I think of it.
    6) Certain folks who? I was looking for more detail. Listened 2 xs. Still aint picking up on the special population that this affects unless, just know thinking, its endomorphs. Mat I believe was always a thin lad, metabolism never crushed? I have also heard that if the scapular fold in a pinch test is under a certain % it can tell you if someone can handle higher carb or need lower carb in general.
    7) Ehayes was also with me on this.
    9) Again that’s where there was some confusion. I feel better performance, feel and look on fasted hard long wods. But he was saying how it caught up to him (I’m in week 3) so this peaked my interest. Harder and smarter are two different things and I’m sure if he compared Wod Logs we would have some good trade off’s but still “mine is bigger than his” has always been a special kind of game. I’m working out sometimes 2x a day and even longer than 1hr on certain days doing certain wods with no spike in cortisol (that I can notice), no drop in test (actually feels like it’s headed the other direction) etc. I’ve been going fasted and hitting wods harder from better overall conditioning and a lot of other peeps have jumped on a LG approach and are doing similar things in my gym. So I wasn’t sure if he knew something I didn’t and just didn’t say it.
    10) F88K fructose….got it.
    Thanks for the response and suggestion again. I just was searching for a little confirmation on such topics because my little paleo bubble got spun around. It seems like everyone from Harvard is just trying to change the world….usually not for the better. I love Mat’s approaches and advice on things and the fact he human Guiney pigs the funk out of himself is awesome just wasn’t sure where the slamming of new knowledge was fitting in all of a sudden.
    Also thank god that myth got busted! I didnt like that bastard anyway, it sounded vegan.

    • says

      I’m hammered busy, but here is the deal with the genetics piece: Just because something is new (evolutionarily novel) does not GUARANTEE that it is a problem, but when simply shuffling macronutrients seems to fail addressing many problems. Food quality DOES address these problems. See the Kitavan’s for ideas on this.

      Did not notice any snarky/sarcastic stuff.

      • Chris says

        Robb…..Busy?? Since when?! You dont make it on the best sellers list by hanging around all day with a cat….or do you?

        Thanks for the response. I was unaware that our arguments were starting to change/we were revamping them. It all makes complete sense and I agree with Mat’s retorts I had just thought that the foundation for our ideology had been laid out. But like everything in life; change is the only consistant thing.

        Thank goodness….or maybe I should try harder??

  39. Julie says

    I am not clear regarding the recommendations for those suffering with Hashimoto’s — if the dietary recommendations are followed to a T, are they meant to cure/reverse the disease? Or are they meant to just make the disease more manageable in the way that taking medication makes it manageable?

    If the dietary recommendations are not followed, would that mean that the disease is likely to grow worse over time? I am trying to understand LaLonde’s recommendations in the context that many people successfully manage the disease with medication (Or so I am told). I am newly diagnosed and trying to understand where diet fits in.

      • cindy says

        What is one had Hashimoto’s and Thyroid Cancer,but the organ has been removed? Do they still need to follow Matt’s guidlines or is eating strict Paleo enough? I had my thyroid removed 7 years ago and am cancer free.

        Thanks for all the great information!

  40. Bob Kaplan says

    Great podcast.

    Interesting note by Lalonde on autophagy and PWO low-protein intake, which purportedly is turned off by the consumption of BCAAs.

    Was trying to reconcile this with the Berkhan/Leangains protocol.

    Martin Berkham tries to eat his cake, and have it, too, (literally: where he recommends consuming BCAAs during a fast and before a workout to get the benefits both from fasting and protein consumption, helping to combine the stimulatory effects of protein synthesis of fasted training ( with a pre-workout protein-induced metabolism boost (

    It seems that in this triad of (1) Autophagy, (2) Peri-workout BCAA, and (3) Fasted Training, there is a compromise between performance and longevity.

    Maybe Jaminet has the best compromise (

    “It’s possible that protein cycling – say, a week of protein restriction followed by a week of high-protein intake – might help resolve the dilemma, providing 80% of the longevity and health benefits of protein restriction and 80% of the muscle synthesis benefits of high-protein diets.”

    Even when we’re getting into the minutiae of mechanisms, it still seemingly suggests, at least to me, that we should be eating real food that allows us to get out of our own way (interior milieu) to live the least deleterious life in terms of health, longevity, and performance.

  41. 5 FRIES says

    Just got a chance to listen…fuck me runnin…I thought Robb was a brainiac…Great stuff!!!!!!!!!

    Robb, thanks for your answer to my question on the other podcast.

  42. Marie R says

    After listening to Mat Lalonde’s story about his low carb diet and OPT WOD mishap I come home to find this posted on the CF Games site:,1064. Ironic. It will be interesting to see how many CrossFitters decide blindly that this “Leo-no-carb” thing will be an awesome thing to try while prepping for Open Sectionals and and doing multiple metcons a day.

  43. says

    Very good interview/lecture :). I have one question for Matt. Matt says on a certain moment that he is very sensitive for fructose. I think for me goes the same. I get a sort of nasty feeling in my back around my kidneys. What are Matt’s symptoms? Thnx guys.

  44. WPF says

    I was more than a little surprised to hear Mat suggest Cassava/Yuca/Manihot esculenta as a starch source considering the detoxification procedures typically practiced by folks who use it as a staple food. (see:,, though I guess this kind of explains why it might be useful for traditional cultures:

  45. WPF (Bill) says

    I understand that processing methods ameliorate the toxins, but isn’t the better path to avoid that food completely for a safer alternative a la optimal foraging theory?

  46. Jan says

    Hey – what an amazing podcast. Wowzers! Thank you Rob, Greg and Matt. Hello from another fellow Canadian Matt.

    But…i wondered about the NO fasting workouts thing for women, and, if’n you guys could look at some of the differences between the sexes for autophagy etc.

    I say this because my sweetheart is a crossfiter endurance dude, and way fitter than me, but I’ve noticed that when we’ve trained long together (we’ve done several ultras and regular marathons etc) I get all happy on those long slow workouts (typically losing a cup size after all’s said and done, which doesn’t make him any happier ;)) but he gets right miserable after about 4 hours. On our ultras, I take it easier, but I recover quick and can literally go for hours without food. (one diez vista i did in 7 1/2, then we walked for 4 hours to get home from the mountain – i was cool with drinking recovery drinks & miso, but he ate large pizza while we walked. At the last Kneeknacker, he fell asleep after finishing at 6 1/2 hours, whereas I felt like going dancing after 8 1/2 hours. Race directors have been known to boot him awake while he’s waiting for me to finish.)

    When we do a long workout, he MUST eat and it MUST have carbs or he sort of deflates. Then, he does what Mr Lalonde was talking about with the ben&jerry’s episode and he’ll facial push me out of the way to get to some sort of sugar.

    Given, my workouts typically aren’t as tough as his, but, even when I do metcon and follow up with aerobics, i can pull a lot longer and I don’t lose my mind. He gets mad, sad and bad.

    Is there a difference between how the sexes metabolize fuels over long hauls? (I’m thinking maybe women can go without food and still pull off a decently long aerobic effort to get us through birth. I had two kids, born at home and it was sorta like an ironman. I didn’t want to eat from early labor to finito – about 24 hours. I seemed to need to empty out the gi tract and stay that way until my puppy was popped.)

    Also thinking a bit about Pam Reed, Kami Semick, Monica Sholtz types – longer the haul, the better the ladies seem to do.

    I find that I can do intermittent fasting + workouts with no problem UNLESS, i try to do that too many days in a row. Once or twice a week _NOT on successive days, seems perfect for me. I’m like Rob – i’ll blow chunks if I go into a tough workout with anything in my gut. IF seems to help with my short hard efforts, and I can handle the calorie depletion of a long effort better. (maybe i’m just fat. I always tell my guy he wouldn’t be so GU dependant if he had some fun bags to feed on!) :)

    Anyhow – like to hear about any differences in ladies vs men for fuel usage over long distances AND during short hard efforts. Are there significant differences?

    thanks for the amazing pod casts!

  47. Jaska says

    Awesome info in the podcast and in the comments. Big thanks to Robb and Mat for taking the time to educate the internet peoples!

  48. Cavecop says

    Great show as always, but the transcript file appears to be corrupt and wont download/open.

    Thanks to you guys for the podcast and info!

    • Ray says

      Having corruption problems here as well. With such dense subject matter, this was one of the more important transcripts to look over.

  49. Kul Beens says

    Meat and eggs also measure low on glycemic index but high on insulin index according to quick google and Sisson…Is it anywhere close to milk which according to Lalonde is 140+, and is there a number on insulin index for meat and eggs? So we can have a comparison idea…Thank you.

  50. henry says

    A few questions:

    1) Where does coffee and balsamic vinegar fit into Hashimotos and other autoimmune protocols?

    2) Does excluding nightshades mean spices such as curry?

    3) Dr. K has said the “goitrogen model” is outdated. Chris Masterjohn says that is not the case.
    Any thoughts?

    4) What should those with enlarged thyroids and their endocrinologists recommending a removal of their thyroids take into consideration?



  51. henry says

    What would be the easiest and most affordable method or test to determine if one is Hashimotos?
    Low Thyroid? Autoimmune?

    Other than going by how one “feels”?


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