My previous post seems to have stirred some interest and a fair amount of confusion. Should one use carbs post workout or not? If so how much, and when? Like a great number of situations, how we manage our post workout (PWO) nutrition depends on where we are and where we want to go. If you have followed my previous ramblings you might be familiar with the orientation I use for most of my decision making: How does a given decision affect Performance, Health and Longevity. Similarly, how does a given decision affect how one looks, feels and performs? Given all this I’m going to tackle PWO nutrition first from the perspective of shoring up health, then performance, then longevity.
Low Carb PWO-Why
When we talk health and longevity we are talking insulin management and carbohydrate flux. For many people insulin resistance is more important to deal with than performance, at least initially. If one is sick, or just less than optimally well, it’s tough to imagine optimum performance. Also, from a purely aesthetics (gasp!) perspective we might want to lean out for summer and not be a fatty. That was certainly my situation and I feel a good bit better at sub 10% body fat, especially when Chico is a balmy 106*F. I have tinkered with higher carbs PWO for several months and my signs of insulin resistance were simply not budging. I still have some cortisol issues that are likely driving some of this…multi time zone travel really kicks my ass! So I finally wised up and went back to what has worked so well for me in the past.
I re-read the article by Mauro Dipasquale, and thought back a bit to what Poliquin had recommended to me at the Biosignature seminar last year: No carbs PWO, not till one is LEAN. For men that is below 10%, for women below 15% and in both cases, no sign of insulin resistance (high insulin readings at the love handles).
The Purpose of the PWO meal can vary based upon desired effects. Fasting produces a different effect from both low carb and high carb PWO meals. People get pretty spun out about which way is “right” but it’s really just a spectrum of options. In this situation the PWO meal of whey protein + coconut milk is providing quickly digested protein which will reverse catabolic actions of training, with just a bit of fat to suppress the normal glucose release of a large protein meal via glucagon. This would not be the end of the world but part of what we want with this PWO meal is the MAINTENANCE of insulin sensitivity. If we totally top off our glycogen stores PWO we impair insulin sensitivity and make it damn tough to lean out. So, one way to look at this is the a LC-PWO meal is focusing on muscular recovery and growth, while minimizing or limiting the effects of insulin or carbohydrate. This is in stark contrast with what we will see in the case of the high carb PWO meal. From my perspective this is THE PWO meal of choice from a health promotion standpoint. Insulin management, cellular stress mechanisms, hormesis…all the crap I’ll cover in the book are adressed when we choose a LC-PWO meal MOST OF THE TIME.*
Low Carb PWO-How
I used ~ 50g of Whey protein from a brand called Isoflex. It’s a mix of whey protein isolate, hydrosolates, glutamine peptides, some insulin sensitizers and other goodies. I ran with a vanilla flavor that is sweetened with sucralose. To this I added about ¼ can of coconut milk (legit Thai coconut milk…hardly any English on the can, not Whitey watered-down crap!) and 2 heaping tablespoons of coco powder. I shot this concoction down as soon as I wrapped up my CrossFit Football or ME-Black Box session. Recovery was good as in I was not particularly sore and miraculously, I started to lean out again, especially when I upped my fish oil to about 15g/day (Kirkland brand). Overall I was getting in less than 50g of carbs per day and feeling pretty damn good. Strength was solid, short met-cons were “ok” and I started to look like someone who “strength trained”.
Low-CARB Reality Check
If you are a strength oriented athlete you might thrive on this regime. Low carb in general, one or two higher carb meals per week (or maybe not). You will NOT however win the CrossFit Games or optimize performance in longer Met-con oriented activities. Several of the folks in the comments section were a little startled by the protein+fat PWO meal which seems completely at odds with what I talk about in 42 Ways to Skin the Zone. It is simply a different tool for a different situation. If one is overweight or showing signs of insulin resistance, a low carb PWO meal is the way to go. Solid food is just fine and likely even better.
Can’t everything be Fat Fueled?
This is a sub-category of low-carb reality check. In general, I think there are activities/work outputs that just run better with SOME glycogen. I have noticed in myself and in some other people a surprising level of work output while in ketosis…but I still think there is a bit more to be had from a properly glycogen fueled athlete. This article from the Journal of Nutrition and Metabolism sheds some light on the opportunities and possible limits of a fat-fueled existence. Keep in mind, even if you do not EAT carbs, your body makes some. This might be a natural way to structure training…what hepatic (liver) glycogen production can support…but we will look at that in the book!
High Carb PWO-Why
In the LCPWO scenario we are concerned just with the anabolic/muscle growth aspects of recovery. This MAY play towards performance if our game is strength oriented but it will likely NOT do us many favors if we desire to be the CrossFit Kid or some other glycogen dependant athlete. The HC-PWO meal becomes appealing when we need to replenish not only damaged muscle tissue but also the glycogen stores that fire intense activity. We can do this a dumb way (perfectly balanced protein/carb/fat meals the same proportion, every day, all the time) or we can be smart and take advantage of heightened insulin sensitivity PWO to fly protein and carbs into our muscles with less of a hit from insulin. In this scenario we should see not only solid muscular recovery due to our protein intake, but also rapid glycogen repletion due to the smart carbs we throw into the PWO meal. How much carb/protein is a great question and I honestly do not have a perfect answer. If you have followed OPT’s Blog you will have noticed that he scales the amount of carbs and protein based on volume/intensity of an effort and percent body fat. That friends, is damn smart. I know of some fairly technical formulas that involve weight, duration of activity and some other factors, but it all relates to fairly static state endurance activities. I find it tough to extrapolate much to the CrossFit world from this information. A nice rule of thumb I have found effective is find your Zone block allotment. From this use about ¼ of your daily protein for PWO meals, and ½ your days carbs PWO for “big” WOD’s, ¼ of your day’s carbs for “small” WOD’s. This does not mean you need to weigh and measure every meal, just use this as a tool to find a nice PWO carb/protein level. By the numbers this would look like: My block allotment would be 17 blocks. PWO protein would be 4-5 blocks, PWO carbs would be 4-8 blocks. Huge variability? You bet, you need to pay attention to how much carbs you need to recover from a given beating. This IS where writing down what you eat pays big returns.
What about Multi-event days?
Glad you asked, I hear there is this thing, the CrossFit Games looming in the near future. How should one fuel/refuel for events? You should have figured a bunch of this out already…now is NOT the time to alter your game plan dramatically but the formula above is a good place to start. I’d say most WOD’s would necessitate 50% of the days carbs PWO. If you have three WOD’s you are obviously not following Zone parameters today! You should have easy to digest foods (yams+ applesauce is a goody) as is a shake you know you tolerate well. A little protein is good for balancing things out, nuts are good for between event snacks. Whey protein in the yam+applesauce=damn yummy and very useful. Nothing new on game-day…gas while running “The Hill” seems like a horrid day.
High Carb Reality Check
I hope you see that a spectrum exists here…if I throw 10g of carbs into a PWO meal, it’s still pretty “low”. This is where people need to understand a little of the theory and then just get in and tinker.
I also had an asterisk* up above. It denotes the fact that although a low carb PWO meal is preferable for health, for longevity I think an OCCASIONAL HC-PWO meal is of benefit for a variety of reasons. Some of what I will cover in the book relates to two facts which seem at odds:
What is the metabolic profile most associated with EFFECTIVE aging? Answer: the ability to metabolize fat for energy.
What Helps to ensure this profile? OCCASIONAL bouts of glycolysis (large amounts of carbs).
To this end, once one is healthy, but following a low-carb approach drop in one HC-PWO meal every 5-7 days. Post burner is a perfect time.








145 Comments
rem-
Should not be a problem.
Robb,
I was curious as to the fat content of your coconut milk you use. The reason I ask is because I was wondering what the optimal ratio is (fat/protein) in order to prevent glucose response from the liver. Currently I take EAS Premium Protein (or whatever is available at Costco) that contains 54g Protein and 5g Fat. In addition to that I take 5 caps fish oil bringing the total up to 54g Pro/10g Fat/6g Carb (I mix it in water). Am I taking enough fat PWO to prevent the glucose response. Should I up the Fish oil caps or eat some almonds?
Thanks in advance.
BTW, are you planing on doing a cert in the Mid Atlantic region (DC, Maryland, Virginia area, or PA) anytime soon?
Nathan-
The stuff we use is about 80g fat per can. I’m not really sure what level that needs to be to suppress glucose release…I’ll try to track down some numbers but I’m just guessing at about 20-30g. That may be way too high, just not sure.
We will be in Cape Fear pretty soon. Then you will mainly se Matt and Bobbi on the east coast gigs.
robb,
you`re talking about the fishoils. 15g/day…thats a lot. how does fish oil affect a decrease of body fat?
I am 2m tall and about 106kg..18%bf…would love to drop the bf under 10%. I played waterpolo and ran with 19 blocks…but I was never sure about the blocks… we finished the championship now…so there is only CF and cardio in the morning for me. My metabolism isn`t really a big calorie burner…so I`m really fightin`to loose some bf. I try to lower my carb intake to only a salad for lunch and only protein and fat the rest of the day…! Sometimes I was a little depressed, because waterpolo training is extremly exhausting, but I wasn`t really loosin`a lot of bf..on 19 blocks ( weight and measured )…so I try to do my cardio in the morning now, hope to keep enough energy for the cool WOD`s in the evening.
Robb, thanks for your answer…and thanks for this great webpage. I live in Switzerland…the Zone and Paleo community isn`t really big ( not yet )…but I`m so thankful for your work….I`m looking forward to your book….let me know..if you think about translating it to german
cheers
Tibor
Hey Robb,
Great stuff. When doing a high carb PW meal and eating paleo, do you just use fruit as your carb source, and if so what kinds do you recommend?
thanks in advance,
Ian
Ian-
Nope, I tend towards yams and sweet potatoes. From there I’ll run with berries or mellons. last on the list are apples, oranges etc.
cool, thanks. How come apples and oranges are last? Do you tend to stay away from them at other meals as well?
Also was wondering how come the coconut milk for low carb PW, any particular reason? I tried it the last few days. It is delicious, but was just wondering…..
Ian-
Apples are higher fructose than other fruits and tend to refil liver glycogen. Read my articles on intermittent fasting to get the goods on that. Coconut milk just blends well. Olive oil…not so much.
Robb,
Is the low carb PWO meal (coconut milk, coco powder, whey protein) also recommended for those trying gain mass?
Joe-
totally. 50g of protein and 1/2-3/4 can of coconut milk PWO is great for a low carb mass gain.
Robb,
If you were in need of a quick high carb/low fat PW meal (shake) what would you suggest? When I switch back to high carb, I am gonna go with sweet potoatoes for the most part, but am wondering what to roll with in those times where I can’t make something right away…..
thanks,
Ian
OPT has a really good PWO recovery sale for sale. It is about 30g protein per 80g carbs. i think. Coconut water plus whey protein is a good one in a pinch as well.
cool thanks, what is opt though? also where does one purchase coconut water: a health food store?
IAN-
OPT is a force of nature:
http://optimumperformancetraining.blogspot.com/
Egg protein powder a decent alternative to whey if you don’t do well with whey but want a quick digesting protein source post workout?
Sage-
Egg protein ins fine…not as tasty as whey,but fine otherwise.
Hey Robb,
What’s your take on something like rice pasta (to keep things gluten free) post workout? Would it be better in your opinion than something like blueberries or strawberries? I’ve been doing sweet potatoes, but man I get tired of them. I almost enjoy the low carb coconut milk and whey more!
Ian-
I think that is fine (the rice pasta) but if you are like me you will get a little heartburn from eating it consistently. I NEVER get tired of swet potatoes! However…I do just prefer to eat low carb. I feel great and no fuss. Not so great for met-cons though!
Hi Robb,
Is it essential to have the PWO meal/shake within half an hour of the workout or is an hour later ok? Also, what is a good paleo low carb PWO option?
Sami-
it’s all dependent on goals. the more recovery focussed one is, eat as soon as possible, the more fat loss oriented…it is not as critical with regards to timing, low carb is of benefit. I frequently use a can of salmon from trader joes. Use your imagination!
as far as paleo post workout goes, are berries a good option or is that too much fructose (I’m talking half a days blocks which in my case would be
post workout? Goal is to maintain bf and increase performance.
Hey Robb,
What’s your take on liquid carbs for post workout? The last thing I want is any fat gain, so they kinda scare me…
Ian-
I went over that pretty detailed in the post brother.
Ian- Berries are fine, but i prefer yams/Sweet potatoes.
Robb-
Do sweet potatoes deliver a big enough insulin spike?
Buck-
totally. they are GREAT for PWO carbs.
Robb, what do you think for Post Workout or meal replacement?
Muscle Milk (two scoops)
8oz almond milk
2oz coconut milk
6oz water….. Ive done it for 4 weeks for my Paleo lean out challenge since I took dairy out, but love my protein shakes because is the only type of dessert I get.
Diego-
Seems fine, just keep an eye on the waistline! Shakes can make folks chubby if used too frequently or if they are the wrong composition.
thank you!
Hey Robb
How would whey mixed with uncooked oats work as a post workout meal – probably in a zone ratios minus the fat, is to too slow-digesting? The goal would be to recover fast. I still have a few pounds that I could do without so anything high carb might be too much. I have also found that I don’t do well without carbs – zone has worked very well for me.
I’d rather see yam/sweet potato but you know me! If you are not lean, keep the carbs low. YOu will suffer for a time, then thing will get better. Look at OPT’s site for how he manages this.
Thanks for the quick reply, I’ll try the sweet potato
Robb –
I’ve read Sears’ Omega RX Zone so I’m all over the idea of high-dose fish oil. He pushes his brand of fish oil as being better because it is more purified. I like convenience and price of buying the Costco Kirkland brand. Do you have any concerns or thoughts on the Kirkland brand’s levels of Mercury, PCBs, and dioxins?
Thanks for all the great info! I find myself re-reading your posts and comments periodically as I make changes to my goals.
Will-
the contaminant issue is a bunch of hype. Folks who have a intolerance to a certian fat in lower quality fish oil will have GI issues and need to use an ultra purified form.
Hey Robb,
What is your recommendation for pre-workout and during workout intake?
Whatever gives one the best WO. A little protein is good for me if Im just doing strength work. Empty stomach is better for met-con.
Hey Robb,
When you mention dropping in a high carb PW meal once every 5-7 days for those of us on a low carb gig, how many blocks (or grams) do you think would be sufficient or optimal? I am starting to play around with this myself and did one with 300 g last week, which the idea of repeating again is just daunting, not to mention nauseating…..
Ian-
I think 75-100g is plenty. I do NOT see a need to force feed yourself to get the best results.
Robb,
Great article. I was just curious as to the brand of the coconut milk you used. I can’t seem to find one that had 80 grams of fat.
Ian-
The whole can is written in Thai. Find an asian market and you will find something like this.
I have an incredibly busy schedule and I’m usually forced to do my workouts at night after I get out of work (approximately 8:00 or 9:00). This was a problem because by that time I’m usually already tired from being at work all day. I tried those 5 hour energy drinks which would help for about 15 minutes before I collapsed from exhaustion.
However, this problem plagues me no more. After 2 weeks of taking the Dr Max Anabolic Stack , I feel like I could go on for days. Now I’m able to finish all my sets in good form, and I’m finally making the goals I set for myself despite my busy schedule.
Hi Robb, i’m on my otal paleo diet day 52 so far so AWESOME, great performance, stronger than ever the question is TO WHEY OR NOT TO WHEY???? (iso whey)
David-
Play with it for a month and see if you like it. I never feel good on whey.
Great post Robb,
My training for the most part is strength, heavy weight training about 3 times a week, im 16 been following low carb paleo (occasional dairy from whey but mostly sheeps milk yoghurt). I’m also a rugby player and chuck in the occasional metcon. or sprint day…
Should i plan it like this if my intention is to gain good healthy, lean muscle mass at the same time as staying lean and optimising performance in season….
After my strength training follow it up with a low carb/moderate protein/high fat aproach similar to your coconut milk/ whey combo (sounds delicious by the way) every time?
But then after metcon./sprint days or a rugby game (which total playing time is about 60-80 minutes) follow that up with a high carb/moderate protein/low fat meal such as yams or mabey even some kind of fruit?
would fruit rather than yams mean faster recovery in terms of glycogen repleneshment and so be used on a day when im exercising twice?
All the best
Sam
sorry i forgot to add, im trying to gain a good amount of lean muscle, ever since going paleo i seem to have lost an AWFUL lot of weight, i think im around 54 kg now which is really pretty dam light :/ quite scared….
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