Hey folks!!
The interwebz. Source of nearly infinite information and incubator for folks who have difficulty with logic/reason/math and a host of other skills, to exist, sometimes even thrive. Bad information…stuff that lets folks continue to make mistakes which negatively impact not only their lives but the lives of others, unfortunately, flourishes alongside “stuff that works.” What on earth am I talking about?
I posted this picture on instagram:
I know, I know…I should not BE on social media. Unfortunately, even if I escape to that coconut farm someday I will likely need to hawk my goods online. If you follow the link and read my piece you will see that I make the case that chasing ketones can get folks into trouble. We are all different…the 0.6mm reading is from Nicki after eating 75g of carbs (mixed meal, protein and fruit) while my “measly” 0.4mm is after 6 months of strict, Ketogains macros. The point I make is largely the following:
1-I feel good and am happy with my performance and body-composition.
2-If I were to tweak my approach to increase my ketone levels the main options I have include fasting and adding lots more fat to my diet.
Now, I’m fine with a bit of time restricted eating, but given my relative leanness, propensity to be sympathetic dominant (wound tight!) and activity level, I just don’t push that too hard. 14-16 hrs overnight fast here and there is great. I don’t see the upside for ME to do an extended fast. I’d lose training time, muscle and fitness. For someone else, in a different situation, an extended fast might be just the thing. I’m working on a video piece regarding fasting, hoping to get that up next week. Ok, so fasting is not a good option for me, what about adding a lot of fat? Ketosis only works with a lot of fat, right?
NO.
Only the die-hards hold to the Pure Insulin Hypothesis saying you need to eat fat to burn fat and that fat calories don’t matter. No credible researcher makes this claim…not Phinney/Volek, not Dom D’agastino…no one.
Again, read that whole post if you like but this gives you a sense of what case I made. We are all different, chasing ketones has only very limited application, there may be serious downsides to chasing ketones for ketones sake. I had some great comments, some solid back and forth with folks. Then I received this comment from Jason Volstad:
I’m generally pretty cordial with folks, even those with a dissenting view, but Jason jumped in head first. Deleting the comment would be easy, but I actually DO like to engage with folks who have differing opinions. I’m not going to post all of the back and forth, but multiple times I asked Jason a very simple question:
What would you change about what I’m doing to improve my life?
He never answered this, only re-engaged with more insults. I’m not sure if you caught this in the first photo, but Jason is doing something new, but VERY popular to the keto scene: fit-shaming. Disagree with someone? Have lack-luster results? Clearly it’s not YOUR fault…you need to knock someone down who has this stuff dialed in. So, the back and forth progressed to this:
Again, the fit shaming.
But, we will let that slide for now, there are better low-carb fish to fry. Jason backs away trying to make a case that he is going to go hang out with the “real science” of Phinney and Volek. I love those guys, they do great work. In fact, their work is virtually indistinguishable from what the Ketogains recommendations are…and this is really at the crux of the “state of the union of keto.”
A whole host of Keto-zealots are either flat out dumb, or woefully ignorant of the actual science.
Here is a protein recommendation graphic from page 67 of Phinney and Volek’s book The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance:
With me so far? Ok, now lets look at what the Ketogains Macronutrient Calculator recommends for the same 200lb male (top line) who is 15% body fat:
Now, let’s see what the protein recommendations are at the bottom, middle and top end of the KG recommendations:
Lower Protein Recs: 0.8g/Kg LBM
Middle Protein Rec’s 1.0g/kg LBM
Upper Protein Rec’s: 1.2g/Kg LBM
The Phinney/Volek rec’s are between 102-170g for a 200lb male who is 15% body fat.
The ketogains protein rec’s are 136g at the low end, 170g medium, and 200g at the upper suggested range.
Jason Volstad and a whole gaggle of folks like him on the interwebz are pissing and moaning, fit-shaming and suggesting folks mainline butter to maintain “optimal ketone levels” over a difference in 30g of protein at the respective upper and lower bounds.
The difference in a can of sardines eaten over the course of a day is really enough to get panty-twisted and insult people?
No, of course this is not the case, this delta in 30g of protein is not the driver of this behavior. Wanton, painful ignorance of the facts is the driver. If that delta IS the driver, then these people are beyond redemption. These are the same people claiming to have “Healing Crisis” as part of their remarkable weight gain while doing keto.
I thought the only place I’d ever here a dismissal of dietary failure on a “healing crisis” would be veganism. Apparently, I was wrong.
Let’s unpack/head-off-at-the-pass a few things:
1-If you are eating at the lower end of ANY protein recommendations and you are crushing things, awesome, keep it up.
2-If you have tinkered with keto and been afraid of protein because of “gluconeogenesis.” If you have found yourself hungry, over-eating fat and gaining weight, I’m going to make a crazy suggestion: go back to that KetoGains calculator, redo your macros, up your protein, and critically assess your results. Report your results. If things are still not working we can dig in deeper, but for crying out loud, don’t just keep doing what is not working!
3-Ketone levels are a highly individual thing and chasing them can set one up for problems. The folks doing good work in this area have noted that people TEND to see a downward trend in ketone levels with time. Even the recent Virta research showed this. If you are going to cite Phinney and Volek as the source for your “keto truth” at least know what the hell that material is and what it says.
There is not a one-size-fits-all way to do this stuff. There are great beginning guidelines but then a lot of nuance and detail from there. Before I close this I’ll share an example of this need for customization:
One of the commenters in this instagram post related that she had reached goal weight but when she was running ketone levels over 1.0mm she felt really good. She now hovers in the 0.5 range and although she feels pretty good, she does NOT have that same cognitive snap as when she ran higher. Jason and his ilk would tell this woman to reduce protein, up fat and run from there. What I see time and again on this scenario is folks lose muscle mass, see reduced performance and often begin gaining weight due to excessive fat intake.
Here is what I recommended:
Delete about 20g of fat from each of her standard meals (3 per day) and add in 20g of C-8 enriched MCT oil. She has not reported back yet, but I’ve used this approach with a number of folks and it has worked well. We keep protein at levels that promote satiety and body composition, while stacking the deck in our favor with regards to ketone production. Even in a mixed, low-glycemic diet for epileptics, the addition of MCT can produce therapeutic ketone levels! With this approach we maintain everything we want, while goosing the ketones that are necessary for THIS situation.
So, although I recommend against generally “chasing ketones” I know enough about this topic to not just tell this woman to keep failing, I gave her an actionable recommendation we can immediately assess for efficacy. I did not need to invoke mystical healing crisis, nor did I need to shame her for needing help. Perhaps most importantly, I will hold myself accountable to making sure this woman finds a solution.
I’m not sure of an elegant way to wrap this up, but I will say the following: If you seek out a plumber to fix a leaky faucet, it’s on you if you call the person back 4 times to fix the same issue and it is never addressed. If, upon inspection, the plumber says “we’ve got more than a leaky pipe here” he/she should be able to tell you what is going to happen, what timeline, cost etc, and if they have ethics, they will hold THEMSELVES accountable for delivering the goods.
Low-carb noodle on that.
Oh! One more thing. I asked Jason to provide an analysis of the difference between KetoGains and the Phinney/Volek recommendations. As of this writing, no response.
UPDATE!
Jason did pop back up! I’ll give him this credit, he is consistent. I asked him for the following:
1-What recommendations would he make to my approach to improve my life?
2-What exactly are his perceived differences between the Ketogains Phinney/Volek approaches. This was his response:
I don’t know why, but this reminds me of the joke called “The Bear Hunter.”
Like any diet or fitness plan that gains mainstream popularity, there are those who jump on the hype train and become such obnoxious proponents that they end up promoting an approach that is A) so ridiculously strict to the point of being unsustainable, and B) take it as gospel, trying to follow the founding rules so strictly without accounting for individual metabolic variance that the purported benefits end up being lost in the madness.
Unfortunately such wackjobs exist in most dietary camps, including paleo. I just hope you don’t let the vocal minority paint a bad picture of the rest of us keto proponents! Most of us (myself included) would agree with what you’ve proposed in these past few posts.
Well, this is part of why I’m doing these things…the folks like Jason are making it a shit-show for everyone else.
Robb, I did read this and it made my day. You are rather amazing human being. Take on internet!!!!!
Outside internet rant, this article has so much valuable information.
Thank you!
THANKS!
Loved your response to the fit shaming
We all need to focus on finding the objective truth – hence the scientific method
Bias seems to be a part of human nature
Note the recent bias in the heated conflict
between Phinney and Fung over the pros
and cons of extended fasting
Love your work Rainer from Down Under
Well done. I like your informed debate, people seem to get religious over the chosen dietary path. This world is not always black&white, there is a lot of grey about.
Always like your articles.
Chris.
Hey the keto gains calculator is great. But questuon, at the top there is a recommendation for how much u can lose safely without losing muscle according to BF%. But it only goes up to 24-25% BF. I am about 42% BF, i train (strength mainly) and want to lose weight without losing muscle. So what would be the safe zone for someone like me???
Connie! Those are just rough guidelines, set up your macros and jump in!
Hello, I stumbled across your blog and agree with what you have to say. I have a piece of constructive criticism that I honestly would have preferred to just email you but there’s no way to do so, so here goes in the comments.
Generally, if one is to begin an article with a discussion about how people on the internet can be ignorant and stupid, the argument is made more credible by utilizing correct grammar.
You have a pretty blatant grammatical error in sentence number 3 which is a distraction from your intended message right from the get-go.
“Let’s” with an apostrophe is an abbreviated form of “let us”. It appears you’re intending to use “let’s” as an alternative to the word “allow”, in which case it should be written as “lets”.
I won’t be offended if you delete or do not post this comment as it does not contain any thing relevant to the content of your post in a public space. It was intended to be helpful and really just for you personally in case you decide to correct.
Spot on Lisa, thanks!
Rob, you shredded keto-cunt!
Doing what I can!!
I’m not a keto expert. As a matter of fact, mere days before I had to start eating in “keto fashion”… I tried to convince my sister to stop feeding her entire family by keto guidelines. I believe these types of extreme diets are for people who need dietary intervention for a medical issue. I proceeded to explain to her why this would be more beneficial to a person with diabetes than a perfectly healthy 28yo woman. Then, my doctor informed me that my triglycerides were at 977 … That’s 900 more than my fast food munching husband’s triglycerides (proving that different people have barely different dietary reactions). I have always eaten healthy and teach martial arts in my spare time, so I get enough exercise… However, my doctor was shocked that I did not yet have pancreatitis and said I needed to get my numbers down quickly (before my body realized). Low to no carbs is how she suggested I do so. Keto recipes have come in handy for be and in just 2 weeks my triglycerides shrunk to 402. This may sound like an endorsement, but it’s not. I still had to filter out keto recipes that didn’t make sense. I’ve read countless “the diet that allows you to eat bacon” like articles. Just because something for in the parameters of your diet doesn’t mean you should bacon and cheese it up. You could end up with high cholesterol or even clogged arteries. Each body is a complex mechanism made of multiple systems which react differently from individual to individual. Truly knowing your body (physically and medically) is the only way to monitor dietary health with checks and balances… Not a diet Bible that tells you exactly what to do.
Hello im a diabetic in desperate search to get kower glucose readings and loose weight. Im hearing that keto diet is the way to go. Would this plan be right for me
I think it could be incredibly helpful, you might look into Virta Health: https://www.virtahealth.com/research
started keto 2 weeks ago. shed 6% body fat. loving results, but one problem: red eyes…RED!!! i look like a junkie.
ok…i’ve been hangry, too…moody…but the red eye is my real concern. i can’t find too much online about it, but figure you know a thing or two about this symptom and how long i might expect to see it…or maybe i’m doing something completely wrong here. any answer or reference to some source would be appreciated.
thank you,
gabe
That’s…odd. Are you following these recs on electrolytes?
https://ketogains.com/2017/06/keto-flu-electrolyte-imbalances/
I’ve read about keto and it says it won’t work if you’re stressed out. I work night shift in a hospital and have a handicap boyfriend. It’s all stress. Will keto work or not?
HMMm…that’s tough. Night shift work tends to make folks insulin resistant, so low carb is a good idea…but you do not need to go to keto levels to get benefit. So, I’d focus on shifting to kinda “paleo” carbs, make sure you get good protein with each meal and make things as easy as possible. Make sense?
“…there are better low-carb fish to fry” hahaha…dropped a Keto Masterclass on him … thanks a bunch for all that you do in educating us newbies, including “him” the expert.👊🤙🏻
Hey Robb, Another quick data point here to back you up. At the moment I’m ~185 lbs and ~17%BF and train Muay Thai/BJJ a few days a weeks. Did strict keto for ~4 months. Lost some body fat (trying to get down to the low teens) but not as much as one would think given the caloric deficit I was running. To be clear I was losing weight, but not fat. To add insult to injury I was hungry more often than not – despite others experiences to the contrary. I jacked up the protein intake about two months ago (targeting 185 grams – which is surprisingly hard to do) after hearing a recommendation on one of the podcasts. Not only did I feel more satiated but the fat started dropping off at a much more reasonable rate.
NICE!!!
Great response! Being a female in my mid-sixties with a body looking and performing half that age (thank you paleo keto) I get fit shamed often by same-aged obese women! No joke. I’m in retail, and one day an older obese female, out of the blue, said to me, “I don’t like your attitude. Why don’t you just go eat a cookie.” Lol! My colleagues were just baffled. Not me. Fit shamed!
Not to mention when I’m eating (or not) at social events. My plate looks too healthy (usually just veggies and meat) and there’s always some “helpful” IR, obese pre or full blown diabetic giving me nutritional advice: “You really should be eating more food (i.e.. the pasta, potato, sugar laden coleslaw salads or the desserts) You need to eat carbohydrates for energy, don’t you know? Too much meat isn’t good for you, don’t you know?”
I’m maintaining a 160 lb weight loss – going on 8 years. These people have watched this. They know me yet never cease to make their comments. I don’t preach but when someone inquires I definitely make the case for lower carb as clearly and as quickly as I can! Lol!
I recently read a statement: “You need to want and love the TRUTH more than yourself (agendas/theories/preferences/“wish it were true”, etc.) .” Reality doesn’t shift for us,. Dang! But I guess it could also be said that if you truly loved yourself you’d want the truth!
Made my day! this is awesome!
Robb, obviously do you put much stock in monitoring your ketone levels. I’m curious, what is your opinion on tracking your blood glucose? What parameters do you shoot for?
https://robbwolf.com/wiredtoeat/7daycarbtest/