I received the following question which is pretty interesting. Check it out:
Rob,
I would like to start with saying thank you for all of your time and commitment to the crossfit community. I am very frustrated with the zone right now. I am 6?2? 230# with about 19-20% BF. I weigh and measure everything and no cheat days. I started with 18 blocks strict for 5 weeks and have now switched to 16 blocks for the last 2 weeks. My body comp has pretty much stayed the same. I hear people say that body comp changes very quickly on the zone. Am I just not being patient enough? I am a crossfitter and an ironman triathlete following main site WODs and 6 crossfit endurance WODs a week. I am happy with my performances, 5 min Fran, 7 min Karen, 4 min Diane and times are dropping. But, I am not happy about the body comp and I am hungry all the fucking time. I guess I am looking for a direction in which to play with this. What will least effect my distance stuff (at least with CFE we dont go long too often). Should I half the carbs and up the fat? Sorry for the rambling, and any direction would be much appreciated. Thanks
Toby Shell
Crossfitfusion.com
My immediate sense on this is TOO MUCH WORK, TOO MUCH INTENSITY, TOO OFTEN. One of our trainers, Angela is an endurance chick…she likes that “running” stuff. She was really lean, had solid performance and was “just” doing the 3-on-1-off WOD, occasionally even a little less than this. Then she added more endurance activity in preparation for a 50K trail run (can you fucking believe that?! 50K!) and with the increased activity….she gained fat around the midsection. Significant amounts. Now she is a solid paleo/zoner, completely gluten free…she has NO holes in her game nutritionally. She is a model athlete in this regard and she was buggared by the fat gain when her training took an up-tick in both volume and intensity.
What the hell gives here?
In an earlier post I looked at how exercise is ineffective for fat loss. I had a follow up to that post over at Art Devany’s site but I can not find it for the life of me…this is the clossest thing I can track down.
So there appears to be a paradox here. In the first posts I mention that exercise will not make you lean, that you need to control insulin via sound nutrition and only then will you get the leanness you want. Now I’m not focused on food but am looking at exercise making people…fat?
Toby, I don’t think ANY amount of food tinkering will bring that bodycomposition down. I think you are getting too much volume and likely too much intensity of exercise. I’m going to take a big leap (not really) and say you are likely under slept (6-7hrs/night max) as well. If we did an ASI test on you (adrenal stress index) I suspect you would have some wickedly elevated cortisol, and as a consequence, poor insulin sensitivity. You have your body in a fight or flight mode and the main causitive factor is too much exercise. I’d be willing to wager inadequate sleep as well. Here is what I’d like you to do:
1-Drop the CF-Endurance work for 1 month.
2-Keep your blocks at 18, put 1/2 of your carbs into the post WO meal. Consider cutting down to ~12-15 blocks TOTAL. Add fat as I’ve described with other folks (3 blocks of fat for every carb blcok deleted).
3-sleep in a COMPLETELY DARK ROOM FOR AT LEAST 9 HRS PER NIGHT. Kill someone to make this happen if you have to.
4-Take a buffered, sugar free vit c before bed like Emergen-C. This should help to drop nightime cortisol levels.
Report back and let me know how things are going…then we can see about how to ratchet up your endurance efforts and still keep you lean.
I no longer take LSD (Long Slow Distance). I found that once I had stopped running, started measuring composition, and started running again that I lost weight but gained 2% BF. I suppose I could have increased my intake to prevent good tissue loss, but I will not do this test again.
Here’s my post on the gaining BF via LSD: http://www.abrahamwilliams.com/2008/09/my-experience-with-lsd-reposted.html
I should say that I’m very low on the BF side and I don’t exercise much…average of 3x a week varying from 12 min (crossfit style) to 40 min (power law weight training). I attribute my leanness to EF style eating.
Hi Robb! I came across your blog while researching intermittent fasting and was happy to see that you’re also a valued Crossfitter – having done it myself I have so much respect for you guys.
Your post is INCREDIBLY interesting to me. I’ve worked out so much in the past few years (at times 6 days a week, sometimes twice a day, with maybe 6 hours of sleep – and I’m 43!!) while counting out every frikkin’ macronutrient and calorie. I got lean-ish – as low as 15% at one point when I was running – but keeping it there’s impossible as soon as I ease up the slightest bit. And now that I’m 21%, losing fat is SUCH a challenge.
I’m thinking of following Martin Berkhan’s program and getting back to whooping some Crossfit ass. I’m debating whether it makes more sense to do that very intense Crossfit combo of lifting and cardio or to just follow a great lifting program like Eric Cressey’s. I want to get leaner, stronger and… for lack of a better word, wiry. I’m prone to looking bulky so I’m hesitant to do pure lifting anymore.
I was Type 2 diabetic a few years ago, before I lost weight and leaned up, and I realise now how crucial insulin management through proper nutrition is for me. And I’m just now starting to get the role of sleep on my cortisol levels, too… More work to be done there! ‘-) Thanks so much for this excellent post, Robb!
Danielle!
I like CrossFit for the variety and athleticism but it sounds like any of the programs listed would be great. Good on ya for reversing the type 2 diabetes. That horrible disease is 100% treatable/preventable but we are being led down the wrong path.
Emergen-C before bed to drop cortisol levels? Very interested to learn the mechanism here.
Forget where I ran across this…a quick google search produced this among others:
http://www.thinkmuscle.com/ARTICLES/jalali/cortisol.htm
Well, the major factor here is probably cortisol. I’d bet $100 on it easy. Just look up Cushing’s syndrome and see what hyper-glucocorticoid production does to a person.
Though I look at the diet and would probably guess that it’s not enough calories to support weight loss anyway (body is going into starvation mode = hungry all the time).. but that can be debatable.
If you guys notice all of Robb’s suggestions do things on multiple levels namely:
1. Drop CFE for a while = blunt sympathetic stress activation including glucocorticoid production (which, by the way does tend to lead to fat accumulation — see Cushing’s — and protein catabolism)
2. Add fat/drop carbs = control insulin better… which most you know helps with weight control.
3. sleep is anabolic.. helped decrease stress response and build the body back up. Grow when ya sleep you know..
4. Vit-c and other antioxidants.. reduce oxidative stress and drop cort.
Anyway, I’m suprised more people don’t burn out on those types of schedules. I still think CFE is pretty foolish but whatever.
Steve-
Our girls Angela DID see her body comp go southward a bit when she adopted the CFE…but I think it is a great program IF one is going to do endurance activity. That said, it’s waaay more activity than I want to tackle. I’d prefer a 2x BW clean and jerk and a few round off-back flips. Some how that seems like more fun.
Robb,
Quick question, just how much exercise is too much? I mean are there any tell tale signs? Im kind of having a similar problem doing crossfit and wushu training 6 days a week. I definitely am guilty of not getting enough sleep as well.
Mario-
General malaise, poor or retrograde performance, fat gain around the abdomen. If you have a tough MA schedule you need to use CF to SUPPLIMENT that training..you can not tackle it as someone who only does CF. You will be a crispy critter in no time.
Hi Rob,
I’m a Ph.D candidate in Immunology and was impressed that you picked up on the immune response/inflammation relation to cancer. Interestingly, low level inflammation has a terrible correlation with cancer prognosis and appears to relate with the recruitment of suppressive macrophage precursor cells. You want to get people really excited? In mice, taking PDE-5 inhibitors (viagra, etc) prevented the suppressive activity and cancer progression was blunted.
Mike-
Interesting stuff. Stem cells appear to play some kind of role here…in a hyperinsulinemic state we atre burning through our stem cells at an accelerated rate, we have inflammation and we appear to be turning off several of the mechanisms for preventing cancer propagation (loss of normal apoptosis, increased angiogenesis…) it all comes out as “this person gets diabetes, this person gets alzheimers, this person gets lupus and this person gets cancer”. Similar etiology, divergent diseases. Tough as hell for researchers to make heads or tails of it and no one talks across disciplines anymore. Bummer.
Personally I didn’t realize how much extra fat I had to loose until I started getting enough sleep. When I left my engineering job to run DCF and teach martial arts, I was able to start getting 8 hours a night. . .
Lo and behold, I dropped 15lbs in about a month! Gained muscle too (so more than 15lbs of fat). I went from 6’4″ 215 to 200.
My diet was pretty dialed in, I was just over training and not sleeping.
I have started using liquid sublingual melatonin when I want to ‘reset’ my clock so that I can go to bed earlier. Much better than pills, and you don’t get a “melatonin hangover”. You can pick up a bottle for $10 at Whole Foods. Supposedly you can build up a tolerance, so I only use it for a week or two (as an aid to adjust my sleep patterns).
Good stuff.
-jj
You likely shed some cortisol/insulin retained water along with the fat. I know I sound like a fucking nut-case to our clients: “Eat fat, sleep, take a day off…” our triathletes are tough to get on-board with this but I guess that’s the good fight? Congrats on ditching the day job!
Hi Robb
Just on the topic of too much exercise id like to contribute my experience. Im a competetive MMA athlete and upped both the duration of my training and intensity at the start of this year. I also started to eat purely Paleo around the same time. My training increased from 7 hours a week to 12 very quickly as I started to see the energy benefits from Paleo. Id get around 3000 calories a day, 50% from fat, 30 from Protein and 20 from Carbs. The intensity of my training also increased rapidly and I started adding in alot of crossfit style workouts during the week. I also never took rest weeks.
In late May i made a very large cut down to 70 kilos for a fight. I won the fight but the cost seemed to be huge. Two weeks later I stopped training due to fatigue and have not returned since. I had full blood tests witch came back perfect and the fatigue was not considered serious enough to be CFS/ME. However getting through the day was a huge challenge and something was very wrong. The recovery has been slow but steady. I can now go on slow 5k runs. I am now on a good recovery programme with a sports medicine fatigue specialist who diagnosed me with “Overtraining Syndrome”.
I dont know if you have ever come across this but it is meant to be a relatively common occurrence amongst endurance athletes.
Kevin
Kevin-
I cooked up a hefty dose of over training/adrenal fatigue earlier in the year…it’s easy to do. I was talking to Josh Everett about this and he had a great piece of wisdom from a middle distance running coach he really respects. The coach observed that his runners had about 12 max efforts in them in any given competitive season. Some of those should happen in training, obviously some should happen in competition. If this is the case we are talking about 1 real burner per month…where you are completely exhausted. With MMA training and CF combined I think the potential to shoot past his is enormous. We need to really discern between 85% 90% and 100% effort days and the relative amount of recovery needed for each. Add to this weight cutting, which is an enormous stressor, and we have a dicey situation to navigate.
Robb,
I looked for a email address to contact you through but could not find one. Therefore I am leaving a comment on this blog as my problem is close to same.
Since starting CF 6 months ago I have dropped 25 pounds and 8% BF. My current stats are: wt 158, BF 19% and LBM 128. I would like to be around 16% BF, which would make my weight approximately 147. I have been struggling with these last 10 pounds for some time now and could really use your advice/help.
I do a 6:00am WOD 6x a week with Sunday as my rest day. For the past 6 weeks I have been doing the Starting Strength program and have increased my weights weekly. To date: I squat 150, deadlift 185, bench 102.5, clean 105 and press 72.5. I have pretty well maxed out on my bench and press and have a little room to increase on the others.
I have a Mon-Fri desk job and a serving job on Friday and Saturday nights. Weekday evenings I try and do a relaxing yoga about 2-3x and a 30 min walk about 2-3x a week.
My nutrition is fairly solid, following strict paleo/zone. If I cheat, it is only with more paleo food. I have been trying IF for the past 2 weeks and am enjoying it. My last meal is at 7:00pm and IF for 14 hours. One concern is not eating right after a WOD to replace glycogen levels.
Otherwise I eat 2 blocks at 9:00, 1 block at 11:00, 2 blocks at 1:00, 1-2 blocks at 3:00 and 2-3 blocks at 6:00. I have a tendency to go over in my fat blocks at around 5:30pm with nuts if I have access to them. Probably about 1/4 to 1/2 cup of deluxe mixed nuts which I know is WAY too much and I need to control that. As well, I may eat 1/2 a zone bar after dinner for that ‘sweet’ fix. Otherwise I do not deviate/cheat from paleo/zoning, sticking to 9-11 blocks daily. I do find myself to be pretty hungry all day, especially after I have that first meal. I am watching the clock until 11:00am for the 2nd meal. I feel full after I eat but hungry again within 1-2 hours. Also, I stay away from fruit due to high carbs.
Another are of concern is digestion. I have a bloated feeling quite often and do not have regular bowel movements. I did some reading on the zone website and it was recommended to increase fish oil by 6g which I have started doing, no change yet.
Sleepwise, I TRY to be in bed by 9:30pm and up by 5:00am. That works out to 7.5 hours per night. Probably not enough but I find it impossible to get to bed before 9:00pm. I sleep quite solid, only waking about once to go to the bathroom and for some reason always at 4:00am.
Any suggestions/recommendations you have would be greatly appreciated!
Melissa-
I promise you, if you sleep more you will lean out…immediately. Really commit to do it for a month, get more sleep, make your room pitch dark and you will notice a significant difference. On the food side you might reduce your carbs a bit (1 block for mnost meals) and sub in 3 more blocks of fat…this will keep the cals the same but allow for better glycemic control. The lack fo PWO meal is a little concerning…how has recovery been? Also, if the sleep is skinny (it is) you might consider the more regular feeding schedule and apost WO meal so you avoid cortisol spill-over. Intermittent fasting can be too much of a stress if other factors such as sleep are out of whack.
Keep me posted!
Hey Robb,
What are “crossfit endurance WODs” that the main question concerned?
Nathan-
You’re killing me brother! Use google!
http://www.crossfitendurance.com/
Sorry Robb.
I should have asked, when where theses endurance WODs introduced (I’ve never heard of them, especially since I’ve been told anything on top of XF WODs is “too much”)? And is it too much to do the CFE WODs on top XF WODs? The site says “our top athletes have seen the best results from following it and this program.” I dont believe I am anywhere near a top XF athlete but I’m no slouch either.
Nathan-
You’ll just have to give it a shot…I think any distance over 100m is too damn far to run but I’m just a sprinter at heart.
Thanks for the speedy reply! I will force myself to be in bed by 9, I promise!
I am also thinking of reducing my exercise as CF + Starting Strength is taking it’s toll on me emotionally, I am pretty cranky all the time. But then again, could be the lack of sleep!
Will do on the carb blocks, I had started doing that for one meal a day but will do so for all 5 now.
Recovery seems to be fine, but I think I am going to either reduce my IF’ing window or stop eating earlier at night.
Will experiement with your expertise and I will let you know!
Hey Robb,
I can’t thank you enough for all of the nutrition and training knowledge that your blog has provided me with.
I have been lucky enough to get sweet potatoes at my college dining hall for my post workout meal, but they haven’t had them for the past few days and I was wondering what the best alternative was. Should I go with fruit? Are bananas ok?
Also I was wondering whether or not taking emergen-C before bed might make it hard to get to sleep because it is supposed to boost energy. Thanks again.
Ben-
Fruit for PWO meal is fine, no worries there. I’ve nto foudn the emergen-c to be stimulating despite the vit-b 6. If this is an issue, just find a mixed mineral ascorbate, ideally with more magnesium than calcium like emergen-c…tough to find.
Hey Robb,
Yet another question. I am in rowing season and we get a day off every Sunday. I usually go to the gym and do some oly lifting and maybe a short WOD on my day off. I have felt pretty good physically on this routine.
This last Sunday I decided that I would take a real day off on Sunday and my body felt like absolute shit on Monday. I felt really tight and weak. I felt like my muscles had no spring, no bounce.
I know that you recommend the 3 on 1 off schedule as it allows for proper recovery, but I just didn’t feel like I recovered well after a day completely off. What can I attribute this to? Does my oly day count as a day off? Should I just attribute it to a slight slip up in diet or not enough sleep?
Thanks,
Ben
Ben-
Sound like you do well with some active recovery! Experience ALWAYS trumps theory…if you run better on that schedule, run with that!
Rob,
This is a very interesting issue. Quick version of my experience: I’m a second year triathlete having done Sprints and 1 Olympic (under 2.5 hours for the entire race) last year.
I worked out fewer than 10 hours/wk usually combining: swim, bike, run and weights. BF was 7-8% and very vascular at 40-41 yrs old after formerly being 270 lbs & 31%. That said, I would do 4-5 hour bike rides 1x/wk with a HR monitor and not allow my HR to go above 85% really at anytime. I did eat clean with regards to low carb but most of my calories were Dannon Lite and Fit Yogurt, whey protein and FiberOne bran cerel, Black beans and chicken. Not exactly paleo but low in carbs (although dairy is a tricky animal).
This year I ramped up and did 2 Half Ironmans and just finished my first Ironman on Sept. 7th 2008. My bodyfat is 12%!!!! I was sooo carb hungry all the time or I’d have a lousy workout. I dropped weights as it would inhibit my swimming form. While I did “OK” in the IM race I am now in my 3rd week out and getting fatter even though I am trying my best to just do a low carb diet (not quite paleo) except around my workouts.
My workouts were longer and higher intensity often holding my HR at 85%+ for 20-40 mins at a time for a couple intervals then continue to ride the bike for another 2+ hours. Runs would be similar but shorter timeframes.
I had a salivary ASI and testosterone test done in June 2008.
cortisol was less than 1/2 daily normals, which is an indicator that my body just was exhausted from trying to produce cortisol from the chronic stressors of life/exercise.
Andro: very, very high but 70 y/o levels of testosterone. I’m guessing (as I didn’t order the estrodiol test) the andro is being converted to estrodiol, thus the increased torso fat but still lean extremities. I did take Test shots under an MD’s supervision and my energy, libido mental clarity, ability or desire to work, etc improved.
I did not want to stay on Test shots as even at 50mg/wk being a very low does, it doesn’t FIX what is wrong with my endocrine system.
I am redoing the ASI, test and estrodiol testing next week.
Currently I am getting back into resistance training to see what changes and doing shorter, low intensity bike and runs (70-80% HR) as I enjoy these activities.
Any other advice you can offer?
BTW: I use whole food supplements and do not take any cortisol inhibiting supplements for my condition as it would be counter productive for my particular fat issue.
Hey Vince-
Man…I’d stick with sprint tri’s and really cut your losses on this. When I look at what that volume of endurance activity does to us it’s tough to get me excited about it. Just my bias…I know people love it that stuff but everyone seems to end up broken. You might consider phoshaptidyl serine in the evening forking your way up to 200-400mg/day. If you are an odd duck like me it will be a stimulant instead of a suppressant and you will need to take it in the AM. Keep me posted…
Hey Robb,
I am performing awesome right now on a paleo/ zone regimen and I your website has entirely eliminated my previous need to read tons of articles about how to get “fit” and how to improve performance.
I just have one question that isn’t really related to me at. Why are most endurance runners so skinny? Shouldn’t their daily overtraining be producing excess cortisal? Again, this is not applicable to me, but I was just wondering.
Thanks,
Ben
Ben-
They frequently carry the fat right at the umbilicus…sure sign of cortisol.
Hey Rob
Im having a little problem reducing bf, im a bit of a freak or so ive been told im 28 yrs old 5’11 242 bf 17%. Now proformance im great fran sub 3 cf total 1200+ 2k row 7:05 max chin 42. I can smoke most guy with half the bf and weight i have. But i cant reduce bf very well.
I have always been heavy and able to proform well i used to weight 297 then i got into bodybuilding fitness modeling after college football but lost weight very unhealthy.
Ive been doing 16 to 17 block a day try to do 2 or 3 blocks per meal every 2 to 3 hrs and have drop down maybe 10 to 15lbs. Only having slip ups once a week.
Now comes the tricky part i am the owner of a cf affilate and work crazy hrs and I have a newborn baby so sleep is a little hard to come by maybe 5 to 6hrs a night.
Any suggestions for me
thanks
Sleep! Do the best you can…think about adding 200-400mg of phosphatidyl serine in the evening, 1 week on, one off to reduce cortisol.
Rob,
WOW! am I screwed up! I just read the sleep for at least 9 hours a night…kill somebody to make it happen and thought to myself…”that’s my problem!: I am LUCKY if my schedule allows me to hit the sack by 11pm and I am up at 4am every day M-F for 5am clients. And so my day goes…back and forth busy busy busy until I finally get to sit down around 10pm and fall asleep on the couch…just to peel myself off and stagger to bed for a few more hours. Rinse and repeat. You know who I am so you know I am small framed…about 106 pounds. My strength has gotten WAAAY better..175# back squat, 110#OH squat, 190 dead for 3 reps…my performance is good, could be better. I am an endurance chick as well and follow the main WOD mixed with CFE because I LOVE it. And I have competitions coming up. I follow the Zone diet and feel I’m pretty lean….BUT, here’s my question…when I increase fat blocks I feel, well…FAT! My body changes and I can’t see those spider web veins anymore and my running seems slowed down. How should I tweek my diet, sleep, whatever to become a better athlete?? HELP Rob….BTW see you at the weightlifting delio on the 19th. Better believe I’ll pick your brain. : ) thanks..
Hey Girlie!!
We will get you dialed at the Catalyst Weightlifting gig, guaranteed!
Firstly, thank you and many props for all the wonderful information and clarity you provide. Secondly, thanks for this article in particular. I have been confounded by the fact that I have been Crossfitting like an animal for 18 months, made great perfomance gains (Fran went from 20 min. to 5 min.) but still have a huge gut! Of course, you already knew this can happen – I have been shocked and irritated.
In an effort to combat this situation I have stopped eating bad carbs and adopted “zone-like behaviors” but it has made little difference in my body comp so far (working at this diet crap off and on for 3 months). I’m getting more disciplined about paleo but it is challenging to find good food sources because I travel every week.
Anyway, I have 3 questions:
1. How many blocks of P/F/C should I be eating given that I want aggressive fat loss? (I am 6’0″, 200 pounds, about 20-25% bodyfat, Crossfit 5 days/week, sit at a computer the rest of the time).
2. I workout from 7-8 pm, after which it is hard to find a decent meal (no kitchen in my hotel, no grocery within walking distance). Would it be disastrous to start my IF after lunch at 3pm and skip the post WO meal? If I must do the post WO meal, could I just drink a muscle milk (for convenience) instead of a meal? I’m never hungry anyway and go to sleep at 10pm.
3. Does it matter how many meals you have each day (IF or non-IF)? I always thought 5-6 was best but now, with what I’ve read about IF, looks like you only need to eat a couple times per day. (1-3?)
Hey Aaron-
1-run with 18 blocks.
2-eat real food unless it’s a complete cluster-fuck to get real grub. Rotisserie chicken, two avacados…done. It works better, I wish it was not the case, then I could sell some kind of supp!
3-sounds lke you are under stress with the work environment. Eat consistently, stick to low carb…use IF when life calms down…you do not need to ADD to the problems.
Robb,
I’m curious about this fellow that weighs 230# and is not losing body fat. Am I correct in assuming that 1 block = approximately 92 calories? If so, then this guy is eating only 1,656 calories. Even if he doubles his fat, it is still only 2,124 calories. For fat loss, a caloric deficit need to be established. If that calorie deficit gets too large (i.e., over 500 calorie deficit), rmr will slow down and the body will not lose fat or weight. My guess would be that this guys bmr is probably more than his caloric intake, which would explain why he is unable to decrease his body fat %. My question: is the zone/block prescription meant for active people? It seems to me like the calorie prescription is way too low, not even close. Thanks!
Tom-
The Zone is assumed to be a calorie restricted diet, that ramps up the fat (and cals) once a person has reached a desired body fat level. BMR does not sut down as badly if carbs are kept relatively low…the Zone may or may not be low enough, depends on the person. You may however bed right that this guy is running “too skinny”.
Hey Robb
Thanks for the advice on the phosphatidyl serine. Its funny or annoying ive been really working hard at staying clean weight and measuring almost pure paleo and i havent slipped up much at all from it.
But still i havent noticed any changes at all to my weight i almost feeling like im regressing. So this is what im doing and if you could shed a little light on this that would be amazing,
h 5’11
wt 240
bf 17-19%
wake 6:20
6:50-
3 oz of deli turkey breast
1 apple
9 almonds
10-
3 oz of deli turkey breast
1 apple
9 almonds
12-
3 eggs
1 orange
4 mac nuts
2-
3 oz deli turkey breast
1 cup straw berries
train 3 cf wod plus some sprints 5 to 6 200m
5-
3oz roast beef
1 apple
9 almonds
8-
4 oz ground turkey
2 cup broc
12 almonds
10-
1 oz deli turkey
1 block 70% chocolate
1 tsp natural peanut butter
Am i cutting it to short is my sodium to high and insight would be very helpful
Jeff-
It looks a littel skinny. You really need to go by how you feel…should be strong, but week by week you should see significant improvement sin body comp.
Robb – thanks so much for the advice. I am upping my food intake to 18 blocks, was getting 14 – 16 before, and I’ve stopped IFing through the week when schedule is so hectic. Read Lights Out and am getting more sleep now.
Having trouble with making it through the longer workouts. I’m at CrossfitHEL where many are police or fire and the workouts are like Crossfit on steroids. Last night was:
12 rounds of:
12 DL (#BW)
12 pullups (Chest to Bar)
12 pushups
12 slamballs
I ran out of steam about 30 minutes in and called it quits. Also, several workouts have been cut short by intense cramps in my calves.
My questions are these:
1. Are cramping calves a sign of too little carbs and just another version of “bonking”? (I hydrate and stretch).
2. To make it through these workouts do I need more food the night before, during the day, right before I workout?
Here is a sample day:
10:00 3 eggs, nuts, apple
2:00 4 oz chicken, 6 tbs rice, nuts
5:00 1 egg, 1 oz ham, nuts, orange
6:00 Workout
7:30 3 pieces of chicken, banana, pear
Thanks so much for your help and advice – it seems like the information you provide can’t be found anywhere else!
Aaron-
That is still not looking like 18 blocks! Looks to be barely 12…
Regarding the WO…with all due respect to other affiliates, but this is the trend we see with many affiliates, longer and longer WOD’s, no skill sessions, little to no progression. The need for a 30min+ WOD is soo rare and it is almost exclusively reserved for mental toughness. Programming like this is just fucking retarded IF it is the mainstay. People completely forget the power of working basic Olifting and gymnastics skills session in the beginning of a class, followed by the classic Fran, Helen, Diane etc. Brief and intense, with a focus on improving movement quality, skill set and STRENGTH. I’m going to do a front page post on this to expand.
Hey Robb I’ve been zoning for a little over a month now, body comp has never been better, I have no problems with energy throughout the day and I continue to PR on most things but performance has not taken off like you say it should. I feel like I’m losing strength, as weird as it sounds, even though I continue to PR a little I can feel strength decreasing (i.e. some exercise just aren’t as smooth and I’m hitting muscle failure quicker than I was a few months ago). I’ve read 42 Ways and most of your diet stuff on here. I know about moving most of your carbs to the PWO meal and moving the fat from the PWO and spread it out the rest the day (I’m sure you’re tired of explaining that alot). But I’m not sure what exactly in detail I should include in my PWO meal (other than yams and apples that you mentioned in 42 Ways). I feel that the PWO meal is very important bc I think recovery is the most important aspect of training. If it’s not too much trouble could you go into a little detail about exactly what foods are good to put into PWO and why? I greatly apprectiate it.
Jason
Jason-
I’ll tackle this in a front page post.
Robb – why didn’t you tell me to just read every back issue of the Performance Menu before I even dared to waste your time with my already answered, in depth, a hundred times over, questions? Below are several questions I have wanted to ask you. After reading PM, I believe I can answer them myself!
Q: How do you feel about Zone bars for a quick snack?
A: Aaron, check out PM Issue #5. Zone Bars are soy nuggets wrapped in sugar, not a good paleo choice. Try jerky instead.
Q: Can you recommend a variation on Zone that accomodates a lifestyle of strict eating through the week and wreckless eating on the weekends?
A: Sure, check out Mario Di Pasquale’s “Metabolic diet” as introduced in PM Issue #3.
Q: I know Olympic Lifts are important, how do I integrate more Oli training and getting stronger with Crossfit?
A: Check out Coach Rut’s template for a great, easy to follow, hybrid Oli/Crossfit program in PM Issue #3.
Q: How do you deal with injuries?
A: Great article in PM Issue #6 on icing: When, Where, Why and How.
How’d I do at being you?
You are a far more effective me than, well, me! You are hired.
Rob,
Now 5 months post Ironman my testosterone levels have returned to normal. I do only 5-8 hours/week of swim, bike running now. Mostly weight training.
Taking DIM to reduce estadiol issues.
Finally feel like I have control of my eating behavior again (uncontrollable carb cravings early on for months) and no longer am sensitive to sodium and carbohydrates in regards to retaining water. When Estradiol was higher I could retain 7lbs of water in 24-48 hours after eating a few slices of pizza (ie: not enough calories to gain 7 lbs of lard). Now my weight is consistent every morning at 194.
Just this week my motivation to return to more rigorous workouts sparked. 5 months to return to normal! Ouch.
Keep up the good work Rob.
Vince
Wow! I’ve been over trained before but this sounds like a whole other leauge. Keep me posted on your progress Vince!
Why is it that most Crossfit sites don’t think eating a Zone diet that is vegetarian is effective? Yet Dr. Sears says that incorporating more soy protein into your diet as part of a Zone diet can actually be more effective than meat sources of protein?
Christy-
I’ll tackle this in the front page.
Rob,
Thanks for all of the great information!
I am 6’1″, 175 lbs, 7 hours sleep/night, and I do 5 crossfit WODs from the main site each week. I just started paleo/zone diet, 18 blocks, and I started getting light headed a lot. I didn’t feel hungry but I was also getting food cravings.
From your previous posts, I think I need to get more sleep and increase my fat blocks. By how much should I increase the fat blocks? Should I cut out any carbs?
Thanks.
-Tim
Tim-
check out the FAQ! I don;t really address block questions. Most of the how-to’s are in the FAQ.
This is a super old post but really interesting. Forgive me, but this is long 🙂
i was recently diagnosed with hashi’s and gluten intolerance. Before being diagnosed, I noticed i was gaining weight. Having had thyroid issues in college i noticed similar symptons. Bc of google – and NOT my misguided docs I should note – I figured out what my problems could be and asked for specific tests in order to confirm (my doc was only measuring TSH – i had to beg for her to run the thyroid antibody test as well as the Free t3 and Free t4 …sure enough, I had hashis and my thryoid wasn’t running properly). Found an adult celiac center had a biopsy etc and he confirmed the gluten prob (an elimination diet is/would be most effective in my humble opinion…skip the expense of a biopsy). Since then i have found an MD who is somewhat tuned in – he immediately asked me to stop consuming gluten even before i did the biopsy and put me on thryoid meds to treat. However, he isnt necessarily onboard with the whole adrenal thing.
Prior to all this, i was getting super sick, I was also planning a wedding and exercising like hell to drop the unexplained weight. Despite 23 mile almost daily bike rides on top of 5-10 mile runs several times a week, i was losing weight BUT barely. I was also prob only eating 800 calories a day. Calories in /calories out definitely wasnt working. I understand that this was too low, but in my mind adding more calories would just make me gain – i was terrified.
Since dropping weight had never before really been a prob I was so frustrated and confused. After the wedding – which thankfully turned out great and miracuously that entire week i was pain free – I got super sick and finally had everything diagnosed (the hashi’s and gluten prob). This was after 1.5 years of feeling like crap.
Now i’m paleo and my GI issues are so much better. It had taken me a while to get dialed in with my thyroid meds but I’m making a lot progress. I drastically reduced my running/biking but it wasnt until the last few weeks when I almost stopped exercising due to work demands when i’ve finally noticed my belly flattening. I hope it lasts and can only think it has to do with what you mentioned here. Basically relaxing about everything, making sleep a priorty etc. Its very soon but i’m going to stick with the protocol . Overall my body inflammation is drastically reduced. I no longer feel as swollen in the arms legs chests etc.
back to the story – After feeling more in control with my thyroid meds, I joined a cross fit affiliate and was thrilled at first bc i threw myself 110% into it -I was ready to get back into control, lose the weight from my thyroid probs etc – I was better than many guys in there which i loved! 4 weeks into it and i crashed – big time. I was unable to get out of bed for 3 days due to exhaustion and missed a lot of work. At the time I attributed it to my thryoid meds being off but my doc said my #s looked good. I suspect however now, it was adrenal probs alone or even adrenal/cortisol interferring with my thyroid med absorption (cant find a lot of data to confirm this however).
However, it’s really hard – when wanting to shred weight – to take it easy. i stopped cross-fit but continued running and biking almost every day. Then I stumbled unto a podcast from your friend Sarah Feraguso in which she discussed her adrenal probs and how she scaled back the cross-fit. Basically everything she said reminded me of me. I contacted her about how I might get back into crossfit (cant help it, i really love the stuff!) and she told me that cross-fit is just not a good option right now. I had loved it before so it is hard to tell myself not to do it, but i see the wisdom in this.
I then signed up for yoga/bar method stuff and only ride to work maybe once a week . I figured i would gain weight, but incredibly all this “Taking it easy” stuff is allowing my body to calm down or so it seems. like i mentioned, my body swelling is drastically reduced. I’m getting more into listening to my body: not a great night sleep? prob not a good time to ride to work. etc . As someone who has been athletic and type-A in terms of pushing it, this is foreign to me. i see my friends training for marathons and wish i train with them, but i’m working on this mindset.
Is there anything else i can do to get my cortisol back into check address potential adrenal probs etc? I will continue the light exercise and make sleep a priority but if there is anything else i can do to treat this, I’d love to know more about it. Any tests i should ask for? Meds/supplements to look into?
Also – I posted this in a forum but didnt get a lot of responses – how often should i bike ride? Is 3 times a week over-doing it? Its not a hilly path and i prob go about 10 miles an hour. How do I tell when Its ok for me to run once a week or what not? Should i go by heart rate? Just really want to avoid overdoing it, but as an ex soccer player etc, i’m unsure how much I can truely take it easy. Any advice is appreciated!!!
#X per week is likely fine, we are talking about folks trying to kill themselves here.
Yeah, I used to be one of those – little did i know it was likely the reason my thyroid meds weren’t working and i’d end up in bed for days…
If adrenals are the problem – besides sleep, light exercise – do you still recommend supplements?
How long does it usually take to right yourself? How to know when you are ready to drop in on a cross fit once in a while? For now i’ll stick to yoga/bar method/walking and eating paleo (no dairy, beans, lots of fat protein)
Adaptogens can be helpful, time to fix it? Very tough to tell. Weeks, months or years. The buggar is as youo feel better you TEND to do the stuff that got you there to begin with. Keep me posted!