I received the following email from Xuan Mai who works out at Crossfit NYC. She emailed me a few months ago asking a few questions pertaining to paleo eating and intermittent fasting.
Here is what Xuan Mai had to say:
Hi Robb,
I thought I would give you an update after my first month of Intermittent Fasting especially after the article by you that I read recently on Art Devany’s blog.
The first week of Intermittent Fasting (IF) was difficult but it has gotten better. My fasts are typically between 16-19 hours and I am consuming a predominantly Paleo diet (no grains, no dairy but I do drink caffeinated tea and the once a week espresso). My activity consists of 4 Crossfit workouts per week. I’ve been at the Crossfit here in NYC since the first week of July 2007. When I started Crossfit, I had no push ups and no pull ups. Also, I could barely squat the 45 lb bar. I typically Crossfit at 7:00 am during my fast. I also study martial arts twice a week. Other than that, I work as an IT professional.
On to my results:
Weight is down to 126-128 lbs.
I got my first pull up last week and have since been able to bang out 15 singles over the course of the day. I can now do two in a row as well.
I increased the number of reps of full push ups I can do from 2 in a row to 5 in a row.
My body seems to have shrunk significantly in size even though I only dropped 5 lbs.
I tend to run a bit cold when I am at the end of the fast.
I seem to be more alert during my fast now that I have gotten used to fasting.
A few things that I noticed during all this:
I’m better off breaking my fast with low-glycemic vegetables, protein and fat then with a higher-glycemic fruits, protein and fat. A couple of days, I broke my fast with protein, fat, an apple and dates. This was a recipe for disaster because I ended up feeling very, very sleepy afterwards. Also, breaking the fast with a smaller meal tends to be better than breaking the fast with a larger meal.
I feel great working out in the middle of my fast. I don’t feel great working out after I’ve broken my fast.
I did perform a roughly 9-10 day experiment in the middle of all this. I decided to try to incorporate the Zone blocks in with the IF timing with Paleo foods. I calculated that I need 11 blocks and just broke up the the macro-nutrient ratios accordingly.
This move ended up being a disaster. I did lose additional weight (went down to 123 lbs), however, I was completely miserable measuring food, entering it into an online nutritional calculator, was hungry all the time and had fuzzy and muddled thinking. I also ended up cheating more and fantasizing about food like pizza that on a typical calorically unrestricted Paleo diet, I would have no cravings for. I went back to IF with a calorically unrestricted Paleo diet today and immediately felt better.
I really like IF/Paleo. It feels natural to me now. Actually, I feel very free with food and feel that I have tons of time. I no longer obsess about food all day like I used to (recording food intake really messes with me).
Anyway, thanks for the great information on the PM forums. I’m glued to them!
Regards,
Xuan Mai
One final observation on restricting calories using the 11 Zone blocks:
I am still trying to shake the sense of deprivation that occurred when trying to uber-control macro-nutrients and calories. There really is just something natural and pleasurable about eating in the Paleo fashion.
I really appreciate the reader feedback about tinkering with paleo/lowcarb/intermittent fasting. If folks are willing to give it a shot they usually like the results.
I think it is also worth pointing out that we have seen the food freak-out Xuan Mai described when we push a weighed/measured Zone diet on folks.
A few disciplined and motivated people really like the precision the Zone offers. For other folks it can dredge up or initiate some wacky and compulsive eating. I think for many people the Zone is too many carbs too often. Obviously many top level Crossfiters use the weighed/measured Zone successfully. It’s good to have options and the Zone is not the only kid on the block.
Reading Good Calories, Bad Calories has been a good slap to the noggin for me because we have observed folks changing food composition to paleo, eating to satiety, and experiencing no hunger or neurosis.
Does a calorie restricted paleo/Zone work better than ad-libitum paleo eating for shedding fat?
Yes, if you can keep people on it. If we cut the carbs in half (possibly more, and sub those calories with fat) then folks do not experience the hunger and lightheadedness common with the Zone.
Another interesting piece to the Intermittent Fasting or Time Restricted Feeding stuff is that you need to be sure to be supplementing your electrolytes appropriately. If not, you risk headaches, lethargy, even nausea. And that’s 100% keeping you back from reaching your goals.
Click here if you want some more information on electrolytes and fasting…
Rob;
Great response from Xuan.
Thanks for updating your blog with it.
Jay
Western PA.
PS. Just wish Gary’s book was a little easier read, it’s a WOD in itself just to read 20 pages.
BTW, friend just recommended George Leonard’s “Mastery”, I’m sure you’ve heard of it.
Jay-
GCBC is a bit thick but it is amazingly thorough. It’s illuminating to read the comments over at Amazon and to see the vegetarians taking shots at the book and it’s obvious they have never laid hands on it.
Robb
Have a great week.
hey robb!
i dont think you follow the CF message board too much, but there was a recent discussion about length of fasts (http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=23590). i went back to PM 16 – im curious on why you have chosen the 15 hour mark? (perhaps i missed a reference or an earlier article?)
also, did im not sure if i understood another point correctly in that same PM article. so one can go into ketosis during a short daily (15-18hrs) fasts despite not having depleted liver glycogen/and eating CHO in the feed window?
great posts lately! like everyone else, im slogging through gcbc, and have been enjoying your comments on it! although, im sort of afraid ill turn into a sloth with this “exercise is ineffective for weight loss” hypothesis….
Hey EC!
There is no magic with the 15-16 hr fast other than it seems doable and folks report positives such as improved leanness and recovery. I think ANY move in the direction of fasting or intermittent caloric restriction appears to offer benefit. How much benefit? No one knows yet but on a daily level it appears to simplify ones eating schedule. Everything else being equal it may be worthwhile for that point alone.
Regarding Ketosis: It looks like a sufficient level of insulin sensitivity may be all that is necessary to enter ketosis however one can hedge things a bit by leaning towards low fructose items like yams and sweet potatoes to preferentially fill muscle glycogen. Scotty Hagnas has reported positive keto-strips while following a protocol like this.
Regarding Exercise:Don’t worry, it’s still important. I’ll post something on that soon.
Robb
How often do you fast?
Dan-
Most days I wait until noon to eat but that has actually gone out the window of late. I have been training BJJ at 11 am and then doing a CF WOD at noon. I need to eat prior to that fracas or I am flat as a fritter. Tues/thurs are currently the only days I get any type if intermittent fasting.
Robb
Robb,
I have issues. I am a small guy.5’8″ 139 lbs.
2 weeks ago, I started the PM mass gain program. I checked my BF at the gym on a tanita and it came out 123lbm. This is down 7 lbs several months ago. I had not checked in a while.
So I start the program with IF. I am on 14 Blocks x 5 fat for maintenance. = 1872.5 calories. – seems low.
+ 2 extra blocks to gain for week 1-2. = 2027.5 calories. I reduced the carbs by half and added the fat. It works out to 16P, 7C and 99F.
Back on the scale today for a progress check and it comes out as 139lbs 121.6lbm and 89lbs water. I am losing muscle. What does the water indicate anyway.
What’s happening. I have significantly increased my calories and I am losing weight. From my own observation, the IF seems to be the culprit. For the longest time when I was trying to lean out, I was at 130lbm and when IF was introduced, this happens. I am on a 19hr fast breaking at 11-12 ending at around 6.
Is it possible that I do not respond to IF and should go back to the regular zone eating times or am I doing something wrong? The last thing I expected was to lose lbm.
I might leaving something out but am a little frustrated as I type right now. I see a lot of people on the boards and on your sight with success with IF and such and its not happening to me.
Thank you for providing this site and all the info on it.
Nick
Nick-
How is your performance ? If that is backsliding then I’d be concerned. If not this may be a case of loosing water due to decreased insulin levels, typically a very good thing. Keep in mind also that the intermittent fasting is recommended AFTER one has dialed in a good paleo/zone program. For the mass gain program one increases the block every 2 weeks so we should see some upwards scale movement soon. Let me know about the performance and we can try to dial things in from there.
Robb
For roughly 4 months I have been following CrossFit and Paleo models of health. I started at 302lbs and I am now 255lbs. I have plenty more to go but you can definitely see the difference. I struggle with what I am going to eat on a meal to meal basis and I tend to “fall off” more frequently or become “bored” with my foods. I NEED TO USE YOUR/ SCOTT’S RECIPES BUT SOMETIMES I AM LAZY. Trying IF might help subside this problem, however I don’t know where to start. I haven’t calculated my lean body mass so I am unaware of the appropriate caloric intake. What is the most accurate method? What are the fastest ways and what are the cheapest ways for calculating BMI? My biggest concern right now isn’t losing weight. My biggest concern now is losing FAT. I am not sure that just working out CF and eating Paleo will accomplish this. What are your thoughts on this?
Excuse my ignorance but just to make sure, in any context, if someone refers to their BMI or lean body mass they are referring to the same calculation, correct?
Thank you in advance and I look forward to your response,
Zach
Zach-
If you just google “BMI calculation” you will find a number of free online resources but I’m not sure that is really necessary or helpful. Standard paleo eating and crossfit is a phenomenal approach to fat loss. Keep a 3-5oz piece of protein at each meal, limit nut intake to perhaps 5oz per day and you will lean out at a stunning rate. The boredom issue is a toughy…just try to keep good option on hand and go OUT to eat for meals that are off the rails. Breaking that food/boredom/entertainment cycle is tough but certainly doable. Keep me updated on yo0ur progress.
Robb
Great Site, love the blog
I am grateful for all of the information regarding IF and Paleo. It is fascinating! I do have a couple of questions for those of you who are CrossFitters having success with the IF/Paleo combination. On days when performing a CF workout (which is almost always intense), do you have anything post-workout or do you fast the entire day? If you do fast the entire day, do you have anything besides water during the fasting period?
Thank you!
~Suzi~
Hey Suzi!
Folks range on this topic but if you want to optimize recovery that PWO meal is critical. I think too much IF combined with CF could be a disaster for cortisol levels and recovery. Always do what pushes performance to higher levels.
I have been doing ketogenic/LC version of IF. I have done this for 2 1/2 years…soon to be 3 years in April. I am not a fan of exercise but i do try to walk regularly and I notice hoe much better my body responds to exercise now. Over a period of 2 1/2 years I’ve lost about 33 lbs.My migraines vanished with low carbing although the auras hung around. But, once I began IF my auras also vanished. Joint pain also became greatly reduced on low carb but residual joint pain vanished with IF. I am sure the ketones did a lot to help my body to heal. I also began taking vitamin D several months ago. I fast for 20 hours then eat within a 4 hour window. Usually my biggest meal is the one that I have to break my fast. I am not really hungry for the remainder of the day but I eat in the evening because that is family time.
One theory that I hang on to with IF is that it gives the body the opportunity to complete the digestion process. Hunger is basically a sign of the process is nearing the end, not a sign to eat. The tummy growls because of peristalsis not so much because it is empty but because it is in the process of digesting food.I truly think that feeding my body everytime I felt hungry or to stop my tummy from growling has damaged my body. I also feel that it will take several more years to achieve the optimal healing to eleviate the attack of diabetes and complications that my family faces.
I am a sincere believer in the health benefits of IF. I plan on sticking with it as a regular part of my dietary lifestyle.
Mary
Mary-
I like it…keep me updated and if you ever want to write up your experiences I think it would be valuable.
Robb, I will keep you updated and I would like to do a write up of my experiences. Right now I am working on lowering my glucose levels and I want to add that portion to my story as I lose the last 10 lbs. Then I will write up a more detailed version of what I initially posted…Thank-you
Mary
I would like to discuss my IF journey. Up until 2 1/2 years ago, I believed strongly, that fasting was a very dangerous practice. After acquiring all the weight that I lost plus an extra 2 lbs, I was looking for something that would allow me to continue eating low carb with the ability to re-lose the weight. I love this dietary lifestyle and it has been a very healthy way of life for me. So it was hard for me to believe that my diet was causing me to gain, especially since I was so successful with losing it. I had not changed my diet in any way. Then I stumbled upon intermittent fasting and other methods of fasting. It was then that my idea of the importance of eating 3 meals a day with in-between snacks became…well, silly. I got a great deal of information from Dr. Mike Eades blog. I appreciated the fact that he experimented with it first on himself. So I speculated that if he was willing to do it, so was I.
I began when I had a week or so off from work so that I woould not need to worry about any energy issues. I ate breakfast progressively late with the goal of reaching 3:00 PM before breaking my fast.Eventually I was able to say that this is easy, not scary and yes, healthy. I am now 8 lbs from my goal and I am constantly called skinny ;-). I won’t tell them that I weigh 143 lbs if you don’t.
As I said in my earlier post, I believe that it takes a long time for our sytem to complete digestion. This is especially notable when you consider the duration it takes to digest various foods such as steak. I read where it can take up to 3 days to completely digest various amounts of meat, I began to realize that it can’t be important to eat over and over again. So I began to view fasting as a way to allow the system to complete its job and rest. I think that is why I have a cleansing BM following my fast-breaking meal. I may seem like TMI but I think that it is important to share this with the masses.
Also, I must note that I am 52 years old so peri-menopause was no doubt invading my space and could take partial blame for my gain. But that also dictated that I had to change my eating scheduling.I increased my fat-intake. I began adding coconut oil or MCT oil to my morning coffee even though I am fasting. I also began eating more butter. I increased my fats because I discovered that fasting is ketogenic so in my mind, fasting and fats support each other.
One more thing, a month ago I was diagnosed with pre-diabetes. I requested a glucose monitor so that I can monitor my glucose over the next 3 months. For 3 weeks my glucose was above 100. Then I decided to increase my vitamin D3 supplement from 10,000IUs to 15,000 IUs. My glucose levels then fell below 100. Today I checked my glucose levels and they were down to 89. Plus, my weight was down from 148 lbs. to 143 lbs.
I had to share my vitamin D experience as well as my fasting experience.
I lost a total of 35 lbs by making these two tweaks in my diet
Hello, Mary!
Thank you for sharing your experience. I’m pretty new to the Paleo topic and have changed my diet only about 3 weeks ago. (Therefore But I can already feel positive effects and I’m constantly losing weight while feeling good at the same time.) I also started taking vitamin D supplements, but I couldn’t find anything higher than 5.000 IE per dose over here in Germany. Based on what I read I thought this might be a value I shouldn’t exceed without having made some tests – but considering that I live in dark and cold Germany I might be quite safe to assume that my body can’t produce any significant amount of vitamin D at all during this time of the year. (I’ve read an article that stated that in Germany the sun is only strong enough to trigger good vitamin D production in July to September during midday hours between 10 am and 4 pm.)
Now you thrill me with your link between a higher vitamin D dose and glucose levels, so I’m tempted to try that…
Could anybody point me to some more insight about the vitamin D topic? Do I take a risk if I increase my daily supplement dose from 5.000 IE to 10.000 or 15.000?
Thanks again,
Axel
My IF is entering the 5th year. I don’t see a need for restricting calories. My IF window is usually 24 hours and I have been doing my daily workout. Everything seems going fine.
Cool.
I think intermittent fasting is a great idea for losing weight. It may be the answer for people who have tried every little diet plan and still are unable to lose weight.
I continue to do IF…as a matter of fact I don’t eat until after 3:00 P.M. and I usually end up eating two meals on those days. But some days I eat 1x. On the ” one meal” days I do not eat until after 6:00 P.M. I have also included ionic magnesium to my diet.Peri-menopause has lifted her desparate head and has made weightloss difficult. As a matter of fact, I’ve gained weight but I am confident that things will change once perimenopause becomes menopause. I believe that IF is in fact the healthy way to eat and the way we were meant to eat.If I decide to exercise, i never exercise after a meal, it is always during my fasting period. I feel , why fast if you can’t engage in physical activity during the fast. I keep my glucose at normal levels now, I don’t remember the last time I used meds to treat any illness…that is if I am ill. If I get a headache I take extra magnesium. If I feel my allergies are about to attack, I take a little extra vitamin D3. A little bit of knowledge will go a very long way.
I have lost about 8 lbs. doing intermittent fasting. I started at 116, so I’m not a big person. I followed more of the Warrior Diet and would undereat during the day till about 6pm and then have the big meal, finishing by 8pm. I have noticed that some IFrs will eat from 10am to 6pm which seems pretty convenient. Does it matter when you do your 8 hr. feeding period?
My undereating consists of protein whey concentrate with water, wait a couple of hours and have a poached egg with veggie juice, or sometimes more protein powder. Then I wait a few hours more and have a salad. I start cooking dinner about 5:30ish and finish with the big meal.
Any thoughts on the Warrior Diet, Rob?
Lovely article. Thank you. Started IFing about a month ago, took a break, and now I am 3 days in back on track…. I think I finally have it figured out. 🙂 After losing over 100 lbs I started gaining back during marathon training, and now I’m using IF to hopefully lose again… crossfitting three days per week and running two or three days 3-5 miles each. Hopefully not too much stress inducing workouts??? I feel like my marathon training plus high carb intake worked against me…. hoping to regulate. Thanks again!
Hey Rob
I have been IFing for 9 months and I have noticed myself get stronger with my work outs. I have only now (within the last 3 weeks) been eating paleo as I was just trying to eat “clean” previous to that. My diet is similar to what i ate before, except no more brown rice.
Prior to paleo, i had already cut out most gluten but I was still having dairy.
I am now changing up my diet and I hope i can continue along my paleo / IF lifestyle and keep gaining strength and eating well.
Cheers
Angeli Yuson
I NEVER felt hungry in the morning but was told to “eat breakfast, most important meal of the day, blah blah blah”. Now that I’m back to eating at 10 then again at 4 and 7, my cravings and fogginess are GONE. When I eat breakfast not hungry, my body is ravenous all day long. The first few days going back to not eating till 10 was not even as rough as I thought it would be. And my nighttime hunger has completely disapated. Basically my entire life used to revolve around my next meal. Now I hardly think about it. And when I do eat I eat till I’m full and that’s it! So glad to be listening to my body again.
Started the Zone diet at 17 blocks a day after being a low carb strict calorie counter for a long time recently cycling of a year long keto diet following a 16:8 IF protocol.
So I thought i would experiment around with the zone diet to give myself a break for a while and go on my bodies response, after any advice in regards to attempting to incorporate intermittent fasting with it
Normal Training period is 2 – 4pm
What you laid out here looks good!