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Kiefer & Carb Backloading – Episode 160

52 Comments

Performance Menu: Journal of Health & Athletic Excellence

Features guest Kiefer of Athlete.io, author of CarbNite and Carb Backloading

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Download a transcript of this episode here

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  1. Martin
    November 27, 2012 at 4:11 am

    It would be truly interested to confront what we learned in this podcast of how important carbs are with what folks like Phinney, Volek and more recently Attia study and write about. :-)

    • Naomi Most
      November 27, 2012 at 3:48 pm

      I agree — Phinney and Volek seem quite keen on seeing athletes stay in ketogenesis nearly all the time, and I think it’s their view that the drop in T3 from ketogenesis can be chalked up to insufficient calories and not lack of carbohydrates.

      I’d love to hear any of those guys on The Paleo Solution.

    • Snowcreature
      December 17, 2012 at 2:37 pm

      I agree that this is a fascinating angle to the Kiefer podcast. (At least to me, but I’m guessing also to a lot of your long-term listeners.)

      An interview with Peter Attia would be a perfect complement to this episode – entirely above and beyond the public policy work around NuSi which could be a great podcast topic in itself.

      Just a few of the things to think about:

      1. Tradeoff between “performance” and “health”. There are very different approaches to this using the same underlying science. What Peter is doing tries to strike a particular balance in order to maximize health without sacrificing endurance performance. How to strike that balance if instead not sacrificing muscular growth, which appears to be the goal in Carb Backloading?

      2. What has Peter learned about being able to dip in and out of ketosis, and does Carb Backloading bring anything new to this issue?

      3. Peter (as well DeVany and others) fall squarely on minimizing insulin and use of glucose. His perspective on the sharp insulin spikes advocated by Kiefer would be fascinating. This goes straight to a question for those of us a few years in, already fat-adapted – from a practical standpoint how the heck to we assess how to perhaps move the balance a bit more toward “performance” from “health”, without disrupting the latter.

      I’m sure there are many more we could think of. But really this is a big, interesting question to people already totally dialed-in paleo-wise and thinking about how to make these compromises between wildly divergent and seemingly incompatible approaches.

      • Robb Wolf
        December 17, 2012 at 2:41 pm

        Great questions, i’ll see what peter’s schedule looks like.

  2. Nick
    November 27, 2012 at 7:57 am

    What about sleep quality? Eating a bunch of carbs this close to bed…hurt or help sleep? And what level of carbs are we talking about here?

    • Naomi Most
      November 27, 2012 at 3:45 pm

      The carbs tend to help with sleep. You know that “food coma” thing people tend to find themselves in after eating a big pile of pizza or a giant hoagie? Yeah, that.

      What “level” of carbs depends on how much muscle you’re carrying. You figure that out based on tables written into the Carb Back-Loading book.

  3. Jason
    November 27, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    Adios breakfast. I’ve been eating a home made nut/dried fruit bar in the morning in an effort to keep my calories up. I think that I’ll move that tasty treat to the evening after my workout.

  4. Tim
    November 27, 2012 at 1:21 pm

    These last two interview podcasts have been fantastic. Nice to hear some validation for my chocolate-coated donut binges (joking, maybe). As a lay-person, it can be overwhelming to find and make sense of all the different dietary nuances, so cheers for presenting information different than your normal recommendations and bringing in people that you obviously respect and learn from. Good Stuff.

  5. Nick
    November 27, 2012 at 1:28 pm

    Absolutely Jacked to see Keifer and Robb collaborating. I found Keifer first and tried his stuff, but was not able to sustain his protocols until I learned the Paleo way from the Wolf lord.

    I think the two philosophies, if you will, go hand in hand, and with simple tweaks according to each individual a program can be developed that encompasses most of the benefit from both systems. If you’re a Wolfling and have not been exposed to Keifer, I highly recommend you check out his books and website. You will not be disappointed, I guarantee it!

    This is great stuff, excited to see what both of these guys are capable of in the future when it comes to health, nutrition, and performance!

    Thanks boys!

  6. Cara
    November 27, 2012 at 5:24 pm

    When will his new book be out to address women? Can this protocol work by eating fat/protein breakfast and then working out? Is counting vegetables like leafy greens, cabbage and Brussels sprouts in his carb count or just starches? Just wondering what to add to my protein/fat/veggie dinners.

    • ReneeAnn
      November 28, 2012 at 8:23 am

      Yes, I’d love to know when that book comes out and how I can get a notification of it’s release.

      Also, to someone asking about carbs and sleep. This really works for me: save my carbs for dinner, then just before bed I take one L-tryptophan, 1.5 mg of melatonin (if I take 3 mg it makes me alert!), and 50 mg of B6 which works with the tryptophan. Also, if I take vitamin D, I take it first thing in the morning and vitamin A in the evening. And, I take about 10 mg of DHEA in the am. This protocol works wonders for my sleep. I am a 51 year old post-menopausal woman, so younger people probably don’t need the DHEA. I also have to limit all caffeine to first thing in the morning and make it a small amount. But, I sleep like a baby now! :)

      Great episode! I really enjoy the podcast!

  7. Mike
    November 28, 2012 at 2:55 am

    Would this be advisable if insulin resistant?

    • SpiltBong
      November 28, 2012 at 6:14 pm

      I would also like to know how both CarbNite and CBL work for Type2’s
      I asked Kiefer about that a couple of times on FB when he has requested questions, with no answer.

      • Mike
        November 30, 2012 at 1:35 am

        Yeah disappointing

    • Rakesh Patel MD
      December 1, 2012 at 7:44 am

      If insulin resistant or DM II, definitely look at CarbNite. I have had very good success running my patients who are IR or DM on it. Make sure your medical provider is monitoring you.

      http://dangerouslyhardcore.com/forum/index.php?topic=1944.msg22263#msg22263

      • Martin
        December 2, 2012 at 12:34 pm

        Well, it’s definitely much lower carb than SAD, but we are at the Paleo site and so the bar is raised quite high :-)

        As I mentioned a couple of times before, anyone proposing a diet, esp. one a where carbs are an important part and claiming health and/or performance benefits thereof, please discuss how it relates to the numerous studies done by e.g. Phinney, Volek, Westman, et al and explain what the benefits are.

  8. adam
    November 28, 2012 at 7:48 am

    After doing some research and listening to the podcast, it seems like this would be a bit less optimal for BJJ/MMA/Conditioning work in general, as its more geared to lifting. Where I train bjj it wouldnt really be possible to be slurping down protein while training, nor would I really want to feel anything heavy in my stomach. If you have him on again, it would be great to talk more about it for athletes doing more conditioning and less heavy lifting.

    • Ricky
      December 7, 2012 at 11:14 am

      From what was said on the podcast Kiefer said in terms of pre and intra workout nutrition he was having athletes use hydrolyzed protein and maybe even a carbohydrate drink. Both of those usually aren’t thick or heavy drinks at all so it would be like drinking Gatorade during BJJ or MMA. that really isn’t any different than what you should already be doing between techniques or rolls when you drink water or Gatorade type drinks.

  9. Eric D
    November 28, 2012 at 4:58 pm

    I was just going to comment on the BJJ/Metabolic work aspect of this thing. I was unclear (just listened twice) to what the goals are while doing this…is it trying to lose weight, performance, or longevity?

    If I am to understand correctly I would pick my two hardest days, around 3 days apart, (I would say when I lift for an hour then do Jits for 2 hours) and do a “refeed” of like 300 grams of carbs and then the rest of my bjj workouts are simply drinking coconut water during the rolling section of the workout to help with recovery?

    I do bjj at least 6 days a week (often 2- 3 hours), lift twice a week, and some short sprint work once a week. I am 6 foot, 190 pounds lean and muscular, 28yo male.

    Sound right? Right now I just eat some sweet potato after a hard roll or lift, and maybe drink some coconut water during. I hate to make life anymore difficult but may be worth a try….

  10. Ian F
    November 29, 2012 at 10:54 am

    Rob, great episode #160. Kiefer seems to advocate that when you carb load you can eat donuts, this seems to contradict what we hear in the paleo blog sphere. I know you have strongly suggested that folks avoid gluten so how would you suggest implementing Kiefer’s program while adhering to a paleo diet?

    • Christopher
      December 1, 2012 at 4:27 pm

      He does list some paleo friendly sources in the book too. Yams, sweet potatoes, white potatoes, white rice, ripe bananas, cooked plantain, cassava, yucca, etc. can all be good starch/carb sources.

  11. sonny
    November 29, 2012 at 11:21 am

    Ive been doing 2 heavy carb binges a week since Robb first mentioned Kiefer in August?(ep 143?) No noticeable changes in wt/bf.

  12. Mike
    November 30, 2012 at 1:34 am

    It’s a bit disappointing when trying to down load or buy his stuff when links don’t work or you get no reply from his site or FB. Doesn’t instill a lot of confidence

    • Melanie
      December 2, 2012 at 9:19 am

      Yes, I had the same experience-I tried to order the book and spent the next couple days trying to download it with the link provided. I even asked for the link to be sent again. No luck. I finally just cancelled my order.

  13. Amy B.
    November 30, 2012 at 4:02 pm

    Finally had a chance to listen to the podcast today. Great episode, guys. I didn’t know what to expect, since I’d never heard of Kiefer before. (Sorry…must be living under a rock, I guess.)

    Anyway, I really appreciate the discussion about glycemic index and glycemic load. Many low-carbers — myself included until I learned better — are scared to eat perfectly benign things like carrots and fresh beets because of “all the sugar.” Oy. Maybe they’re not benign for *everyone,* but you know what I mean — people with mostly intact glucose handling can tolerate a pretty big quantity of those things before their blood glucose/insulin get too far out of whack. It’s only the most dire cases of metabolic derangement where foods like that need to be restricted, and then, often only until better insulin signaling is restored.

    And then there’s the flipside of that — that “low glycemic” carbs are the answer to diabetes, hypoglycemia, and other glucose handling issues. What you guys said sounds spot-on — that you’re actually better getting an occasional (in this case once a week) “big hit” of carbs into the system rather than little pulses throughout the day. It makes good sense — spike the glucose high and fast, let insulin respond, and let it be over. Quick up and (hopefully) quick back down. The low GI foods would do exactly what you said they would — keep those little blood glucose & insulin blips going all day. Maybe they don’t go as *high* as with a carb-nite kind of refeed, but they do get elevated above baseline and then *stay* mildly elevated all day long. Area under the curve…yes! Glycation is a factor of both glucose concentration *and time,* right? So it stands to reason that people doing a low GI diet (of things like beans and whole grains, rather than green leafy veg, etc) would end up with much greater damage over time, because their bodies almost never *get back to baseline.*

    Funny how no one ever seems to think of ditching grains altogether when they talk about low GI foods. (No one outside the Paleo/LC communities, anyway.) It’s always whole wheat instead of white flour, brown rice instead of white. How about kale? How about chicken? How about things with practically ZERO GI/GL. It’s insanity. My heart breaks for all the diabetics out there who are getting information from their ADA/AND “certified educators” that is only making things worse.

    You guys make me proud to be a biochem dork. :)

  14. Devon
    November 30, 2012 at 4:44 pm

    I would really like to hear more about potential concerns with insulin-sensitization. As a woman once diagnosed with PCOS, I’ve had the importance of insulin-sensitivity beaten into my head. The thought that metformin or other insulin sensitization agents might do harm is novel to me. This is particularly interesting given that Robb has previously discussed metformin VERY favorably. While I much appreciate Robb’s willingness to change his view in light of new information, I would like to know if the information on the podcast supplants or supplements previous discussion on metformin (or insulin-sensitization generally).

  15. Henry Duran
    December 2, 2012 at 8:27 am

    I would also like to know when the new edition will be released.

    Also, would we be able to emulate the cortisol shot in the morning and follow that up with half the dose at noon (with exercise and carb refeeds) for the dietary-induced adrenal-fatigued/low-testerone/hypothyroid/”hyperglycemic scenario” folks with COFFEE INSTEAD OF THE CORTISOL SHOTS? (talked about at 59 min…)

  16. Henry Duran
    December 2, 2012 at 8:33 am

    Should we avoid high fructose fruits when using High Glycemic carb back loading foods? If so, we’re looking at, in Paleo-land, it looks to be only white rice and white potatoes…

    Also, would anyone be able to share any studies on decreased glucose tolerance in formerly obese or diabetic (now lean/non-diabetic)? Robb mentioned Tara Dall at the 53 min mark that 50% decreased beta cell production is gone.

    “Yeah. We’veseen Tara Dall from the National Lipid Association. She
    threw out this kinda no recovery point. Triglycerides above 200, A1C
    above 6.5. If we see an individual with that, then she said that you can
    take it to the bank that 50% of their beta cells are done. They’ve
    succumbed to oxidative stress and they’re done which then, I mean, you
    are then fightingthis battleof keeping whateverinsulin productionthat
    this individual hasand maintaining thator eventually- I think they call it
    type 3 diabetes now where the pancreas is just gonebut it’s not the
    autoimmune reaction, it’s from oxidative stress.”

  17. Sydney Moncayo Santa Rosa NM high school
    December 3, 2012 at 11:50 am

    my name is Sydney i live in Santa Rosa NM im over weight and i feel awful about my self the is only one gym in Santa Rosa two with the High schools weight

  18. linda
    December 10, 2012 at 10:25 pm

    Heya Sidney,
    Please come back and finish your comment. Robb’s advice has done wonders for me. I have lost 22lbs. though I’ve got a ways to go still, I feel like I am under control again. It’s done wonders for my self esteem and confidence. I don’t have the craving and binging on carbs. I wish I had this info when I was in high school, but I’m grateful that I’ve got it now. Work on paleo. It pays off. Just start and screw up and start over. Thats how it works

  19. Josh
    December 11, 2012 at 11:35 am

    I am interested in the long term effects of strong insulin responses (backloading). Even though these responses occur infrequently, are short lived, and are during times that the body is most insulin insensitive, is this still a risk factor for IR?

  20. Philippe-A
    December 13, 2012 at 9:26 am

    Hello,

    I have purchased the Kiefer’s new Carb-Backloading 1.0 e-book and had trouble with the download. Sadly I have been emailing the the dangerouslyhardcore website and have gotten zero support. Not even an asnwer to my help request. Does anyone know if Kiefer or his team checks the website or their emails?

    For some unknown reason they seem to ignore customers.

    Thanks for your help.

    • Elaine
      December 17, 2012 at 2:58 am

      I’ve had the EXACT same problem…incredibly frustrating…and of curse I’ve been charged twice. Crappy customer service

    • Jessica
      December 24, 2012 at 10:54 am

      I can’t help but wonder the same, as I’ve tried to contact them several times via several routes with no response…

  21. Dr. Julia
    December 13, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    Phillipe-A

    I bought it a few weeks ago and had no problem downloading it. It does say you only get one download. Did you download it on an iPhone? It states that you cannot do that and the download will be lost.

    If this helps, I have calibre e-reader downloaded on my laptop and I opened it up in calibre too, even though it’s a PDF.

    I just checked the PDF for contact information, but there are no emails or phone numbers on it.

  22. august
    December 14, 2012 at 7:07 pm

    I would like to know how well people who are already doing a lower carb version of Paleo have done with transitioning to Carb Nites . It looks like “people” featured on the http://www.dangerouslyhardcore.com/ website have had very good results with doing Carb Nites, but I wonder what they had been eating before. Good result for people going from the Standard American Diet to Carb Nites might would not seem as impressive to me as good result for someone who was already doing paleo or otherwise modifying carbohydrate consumption and eating relatively well.

    I would also like to know what the results have been like people who are “metabolically broken” who have doing Carb Nites and what possible modification might need to be made to the Carb Nites plan for that situation. I found the idea of actually doing Carb Nights rather daunting since it seems like my weight it so precarious just eating a low-ish carb version of Paleo; it is counterintuitive to think that a carb bender once a week is going help the situation, although I can report that I have done two Carb Nights and nothing really untoward has happened with my weight.

    Also, although I have been on a low-ish carb version of the Paleo diet, I find that aiming for < 30 of usable carbohydrates for several days in a row leaves me feeling depleted of energy. I feel likely maybe I need to be eating slighter more carbs during the non- carb night times or perhaps have carb nights more like every 3 or 4 days (or perhaps both) and to compensate, I might should be having less hedonistic carb feasts on Carb Nights. The book seems to say to kind of go for it on Carb Nights, I wonder if there are exceptions to that rule like for women, people who are smaller or have less muscle mass, the metabolically challenged or perhaps for people who might need or want to modify the non-carb night portion of the plan (if that is even possible to do and still have success).

  23. Philippe-A
    January 15, 2013 at 12:18 pm

    Hello,

    I have purchased Kiefer’s new Carb-Backloading 1.0 e-book and had trouble with the download. Sadly I have been emailing the the dangerouslyhardcore website and have gotten zero support. Not even an asnwer to my help request. Does anyone know if Kiefer or his team checks the website or their emails? Do they have Customer Service??

    For some unknown reason they seem to ignore customers.

    Thanks for your help.

    • Robb Wolf
      January 15, 2013 at 2:33 pm

      Not sure on this, I’ve generally heard great stuff about hte customer service.

  24. JT
    January 20, 2013 at 11:36 pm

    I would like to know how well people who are already doing a lower carb version of Paleo have done with transitioning to Carb Nites . It looks like “people” featured on the http://www.dangerouslyhardcore.com/ website have had very good results with doing Carb Nites, but I wonder what they had been eating before. Good result for people going from the Standard American Diet to Carb Nites might would not seem as impressive to me as good result for someone who was already doing paleo or otherwise modifying carbohydrate consumption and eating relatively well.

    I would also like to know what the results have been like people who are “metabolically broken” who have doing Carb Nites and what possible modification might need to be made to the Carb Nites plan for that situation. I found the idea of actually doing Carb Nights rather daunting since it seems like my weight it so precarious just eating a low-ish carb version of Paleo; it is counterintuitive to think that a carb bender once a week is going help the situation, although I can report that I have done two Carb Nights and nothing really untoward has happened with my weight.
    Would Love to know Robb’s thoughts on this pot from “august”

    Also, although I have been on a low-ish carb version of the Paleo diet, I find that aiming for < 30 of usable carbohydrates for several days in a row leaves me feeling depleted of energy. I feel likely maybe I need to be eating slighter more carbs during the non- carb night times or perhaps have carb nights more like every 3 or 4 days (or perhaps both) and to compensate, I might should be having less hedonistic carb feasts on Carb Nights. The book seems to say to kind of go for it on Carb Nights, I wonder if there are exceptions to that rule like for women, people who are smaller or have less muscle mass, the metabolically challenged or perhaps for people who might need or want to modify the non-carb night portion of the plan (if that is even possible to do and still have success).

  25. Alon
    January 28, 2013 at 3:09 pm

    Hi,

    Can CBL cause a temporary rise in the triglycerides level, maybe due to release of fatty acid to the blood?
    In no time, my triglycerides level went from 60-70 to 130…

    Thanks for your help.

  26. Brad
    February 12, 2013 at 12:11 am

    Hi Robb , I had followed very low carb for a couple of years until it not only affected my weight training and sprinting ( competitive touch football sprinting ) , my thyroid was lowered as well ( through blood testing ). I now wake up stiff and achy both thru my muscles and joints , after extensive research I suspect that low carb should only be used in desperate health situations and only for short periods.
    I have now instilled carbs back into my diet , consuming close to 50% worth, and things are slowly getting better.
    My question to you is how long will it take before the morning stiffness and achiness subside? As I believe that my hormone levels were lowered due to ketosis.

  27. Scott
    February 19, 2013 at 12:46 pm

    Type 1 diabetic, been on CLC for a while. On carb nights (Saturdays) my blood sugar doesn’t spike until 4 hours or so after I eat. Before when I was on SAD, typical crabs spike blood sugar after about 1 hour of eating. I found the section where you guys were discussing type 1 diabetics not needing insulin to be interesting…I have noticed that CLC does change when I take insulin when consuming carbs.

    Also with regards to post workout sugar spikes, on average my blood sugars will rise from 80-100 to 170-190. Taking insulin in the beginning of the workout stops the rise from happening.

    Good show, I really like this episode.

  28. Peter B
    August 29, 2013 at 12:14 pm

    Hello All,
    I’m full on Paleo and I’ve been doing carb nite for awhile now. When I wasn’t full paleo and I was doing the diet I was eating the really trashy carbs, my results weren’t too good. Switched to white potatoes (I do 4 huge ones baked) and my fat loss really kicked into gear. I know selling that you can eat junk sells books, but lets be serious here. You’re going to get better results with cleaner carbs. I do make my own ice cream or desserts every now and then but I know what’s in them and they’re not some 40 ingredient chemistry experiment desert like most processed foods are.

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