The Paleo Solution – Episode 97

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Performance Menu: Journal of Health & Athletic Excellence

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Features guest Dr. Kurt Harris


Robb Wolf's 30 Day Paleo Transformation
30 Day Guide to the Paleo Diet

Want some extra help? Have you been trying Paleo for a while but have questions or aren’t sure what the right exercise program is for you? Or maybe you just want a 30-day meal plan and shopping list to make things easier? We’ve created a getting started guide to help you through your first 30 days.

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  1. Andrew
    September 13, 2011 at 6:25 am

    What was that article re. Olympic Athletes and Heart issues??

    tks

    Andrew

    • chuck
      September 13, 2011 at 10:38 am

      +1

      • Petros
        September 15, 2011 at 10:48 am

        +2 :D, came to the page specifically for that :)

        • Tori
          October 6, 2011 at 7:34 pm

          +3………I want to send the link to a marathon friend of mine.

  2. Derrick
    September 13, 2011 at 7:32 am

    my good friend, Aravindan Balasubramanian, nicknamed the good doc, the Honey Badger.

    • Aravind
      September 13, 2011 at 8:11 am

      I did not give him the nickname. However once KGH posted it on his blog, I ran with it and referenced it on Paleo Hacks frequently. So thanks for the props, but really can’t own it :-)

      • Derrick
        September 13, 2011 at 3:33 pm

        well, we’ll give u credit for propagating it then. good job.

  3. Colin
    September 13, 2011 at 7:36 am

    Finally!

  4. JJ
    September 13, 2011 at 7:54 am

    Did Robb just undo half the things he preached over the last 95 episodes?

    This Podcast was most confusing…I’m hoping it was too big brained and I interpreted it wrong.

    No fish-oil or too much? Eat rice kripies?? Eat rice and bread….huh?

    robb help!

    • Robb Wolf
      September 13, 2011 at 12:58 pm

      Really? I think we are still pretty clear on this:
      1-A little fish oil, but mainly focus on limiting N-6
      2-Are you fat, sick & overweight? then limit carbs
      3-Dr. Harris does not think wheat is public enemy #1, “just” #3. I’m still fine with #1.

      What’s not clear about that?

      • JJ
        September 13, 2011 at 1:45 pm

        What a relief…

        Your plan has worked brilliantly so far for me…i believe I’ve been in ketosis for at least 10 of the last 13 weeks (Too much?) I couldn’t decipher when the doc thought might be a good time to “Come out” of it.

        I get the whole, recommending fish oil then having people drink a whole can, concept. You are dead right about that.

        I got lost in the science of it all. Definitely not my lane, thats why we need you!

        Thanks for setting me straight.

        JJ

        • Derrick
          September 13, 2011 at 3:35 pm

          put starch in after you start feeling a bit “off”. that happened about 4 months in for me after feeling awesome previously, i started getting the low blood pressure and weirdness that potatoes and rice took care of nicely.

      • Ronin
        September 13, 2011 at 3:54 pm

        Robb,

        I was unable to follow his reasoning regarding deleterious effects, hypothetical or otherwise, in maintaining ketosis over long periods? Clearly if you want to rid yourself of fat, getting into a fat metabolizing state is a must.

        But beyond weight loss, for health and longevity don’t we want to make our selves as insulin sensitive as possible? He mentioned ketosis being hard on the brain due to a shortage on glucose, but my bio/chem book says the liver will make glucose as needed? What hormetic effect of ketosis, it’s not a toxin?

        Super interesting interview, thanks much.

        PS A link to the mentioned Oly/Heart study would be great.

        • Robb Wolf
          September 13, 2011 at 7:09 pm

          Hormesis is a PUNCTUATED event. A large glucose exposure is hormetic (protective) agains subsequent glucose exposures, but not if we are constantly assailed by glucose. then it’s a chronic stressor. Same story with ketosis. this is an absolutely amazing peper on this topic, but the key is to think intermittency, punctuation:
          [PDF] Secrets of the lac Operon
          neuroscience.mssm.edu/NeuroscienceLabs/…/Assets/MobbsLacOperon.pdf

          Cellular agin appears to involve the loss of ability to metabolize fat as a fuel source…one looks more and more like cancer. But this does not mean one must stay forever in ketosis. let me know if this helps.

          • Jared
            September 13, 2011 at 7:35 pm

            Hi Robb,

            Great podcast. I was hoping for the oly/heart study link as well. That sounded incredibly interesting and Google isn’t putting out.

          • Robb Wolf
            September 13, 2011 at 9:36 pm

            I think I put something akin to it up in the comments.

      • Janis
        September 15, 2011 at 7:15 am

        Robb, I have to agree with JJ regarding this podcast. I am a huge fan of yours, read your book as well as Loren Cordain’s, listen to the podcasts, watched Art De Vany on You Tube, read your site frequently, I am one of your success stories. It has worked for me after 25 years of being a vegetarian. You name it, I’m doing my best to keep educated about everything Paleo. That is why this podcast confused me as well. Corn? Rice Krispies? These are grains. Neolithic. It is my understanding that eating a Paleolithic Diet/ancestral diet we were meant to eat, excluded grains, legumes and dairy. They were not staple components of preagricultural diets. According to you and Dr. Cordain, cereal grains underlie a host of auto-immune related diseases and increase inflammation. I understand the concept of the 30-day challenge and then reintroduce a food item to see how you feel, but if you continue to eat, say corn or legumes, because they don’t “bother” you, then shouldn’t this be just an elimination diet instead of a true paleolithic diet? I guess that is where my confusion lies. I have tried to get family and friends on board with this way of living, because I see the results with regards to my own health and other testimonials. I enjoyed the podcast with Dr. Davis about his book Wheat Belly. I purchased the book the next day and sent to my parents to read first. I understand and I am certainly open to new information, but with all due respect, this podcast bothered me a bit. I agree with you, wheat is public enemy #1, but wish you could have stuck to the no grains at all, which is what I thought Paleo was about. Like JJ, perhaps I was missing something, or I didn’t understand the geek speak (which I thoroughly enjoy by the way) and I interpreted it wrong. Let me know! Thanks Robb, I appreciate all that you do.

        Janis

        • Petros
          September 15, 2011 at 11:18 am

          I think this comes down to a number of things… the harmfulness of the problematic food, and the harmfulness of being too strict with diet (becoming a kind of food hypochondriac). Not that I’m saying we are being too serious or what have you… I think when “paleo” people adopt their approach and allow such things like “white rice”… its on the basis that white rice is starch and from reviewed positioning we see that starch is not necessarily an issue; especially for those who are not metabolically deranged and/or are active.

          I personally find it really great that people such as Robb Wolf, Mark Sisson, Matt Lelonde etc don’t just stick to “ONE MESSAGE ONLY”, the viewpoint should adapt, evolve if you will with the science and evidence presented. Cordain himself vilified saturated fats/fatty cuts of meat when he first wrote the paleo diet book but since has explained his reasoning/change of heart.

          Its about finding truths and beneficial nutritional advise, not finding something and sticking to it. Glad you have had success (as I have with paleo).

          @robb/kurt,

          cheers for everything u do.. look forward to the podcast each week and the blog posts :)

          • Lance Strish
            September 16, 2011 at 11:36 am

            I worry about processed foods and what happens when you change an original food to mass produce a palatable processed one (may apply to some fruits).

            White rice fortified with Folic acid. I remember hearing about folic acid in the news over the past 2 years http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folic_acid#Cancer (methylation http://is.gd/mlH2I0) and I think Chris Masterjohn may have talked about folate vs folic acid in AHS speech

  5. Ed
    September 13, 2011 at 8:01 am

    WOW!! I thought it was never going to end. =)

    Great podcast as always.

    Thanks guys

  6. Thomas Wywrot
    September 13, 2011 at 9:01 am

    Is it a coincidence that he updated his Archevore framework last night? I think not. Nice.

  7. Kasey
    September 13, 2011 at 9:01 am

    Greg was phenomenal in this episode ; )

  8. Stephanie
    September 13, 2011 at 10:09 am

    An experiment on yourself is great to figure out what works best for you, but not everyone’s body is the same. The only thing you proved by upping your carb intake is that a higher carb, whole foods diet works fine for you. I don’t know if your hypothesis is right or not, but I think we still need more actual science with more than one data point before we can say whether the carbohydrate hypothesis is valid or at least valid for some people. What Gary is saying is not “I am right” what he is begging for is for scientists to actually explore this idea and do experiments that will test the carbohydrate hypothesis. I think with enough data points showing the carb hypothesis is wrong, he would accept it. His point is that it has never really been tested, because low carb diets have not been very scientifically compared to other diets. See his blog for more on the types of experiments he thinks we need to do. But I also think he tends to imply that people who can’t eat much carbs without gaining weight have either genetic factors or they’ve damaged their insulin response by eating too many easily digested carbs in the past. Whether the new type of wheat discussed by the “Wheat belly” guy has caused this problem to increase is of interest as well, at least, to me.

    In any case, I think there are still open questions to explore if we can get the nutritionists/obesity researchers to actually ask the right questions and do experiments that can differentiate between different hypotheses.

    • Robb Wolf
      September 13, 2011 at 12:55 pm

      Right, but what if it’s got NOTHING to do with the carbs, what if it’s largely anti-nutrients? The Evolutionary Discordance theory covers this.

    • Kurt Harris MD
      September 13, 2011 at 1:37 pm

      “What Gary is saying is not “I am right” what he is begging for is for scientists to actually explore this idea and do experiments that will test the carbohydrate hypothesis.”

      There is plenty enough evidence already to reject the CH as stated in GCBC and it has nothing to do with my own mini-experiment. My own experience is simply a good illustration, but I’ve never claimed it to be the only evidence. That would be stupid.

      • Jared
        September 13, 2011 at 7:45 pm

        Hi Kurt,

        I recommend your website to friends the most who ask me about ‘Paleo.’ The way you break down the diet makes the most sense to me.

        One thing that always strikes me in this CH debate is that I never took what Gary said as arguing carbohydrate as a necessary and sufficient condition for obesity, only a necessary one. The initial causes of fat storage disregulation, to me, seemed to be presented as something unique to those who were obese and couldn’t really be pinned down. The necessary part of the condition could be pinned to carbohydrates though, largely because of the incredible success in weight loss to those removing, not just sugar, but carbohydrates.

        Obviously it’s possible that carbohydrates may not be specific enough, as when carbohydrates are removed so are grains and so is fructose, for the most part. Anyway, perhaps you can point me to evidence which would allow me to reject the CH? I find the multitude of low-carb intervention studies showing a greater-weight loss result to be pretty compelling.

      • Stephanie
        September 14, 2011 at 9:24 am

        I guess i can’t say whether it is removing carbs or anti-nutrients, but since becoming paleo I only eat 3 meals a day and don’t really get hungry between my meals. You can ask my hubby, I used to be a total B@#$* when I got too hungry and food wasn’t available. I also used to eat a snack between breakfast and lunch and between lunch and dinner, and even then I was STARVING by dinner. I haven’t really been overweight since I lost weight using the standard calorie counting stuff, but I had to work to maintain my weight before. On paleo, I don’t have to limit my food intake, only limit what types of food I eat. But now that I can eat fat without any guilt I am SO HAPPY! Thanks Robb!!!!

        I agree with Jared, can you (Kurt or Robb or a smart podcast listener) post some more explanation for why you think the CH is hooey? Personally, I think that the CH probably explains much obesity (like poor obese women with their malnourished, skinny kids, for example, that he discussed in his book), but maybe not all. People who have been sexually abused tend towards obesity, so there is definitely something psychological going on. Maybe they become addicted to sugar more easily and then the carbs still really cause their obesity in the end? I guess Gary is just going completely against CW, whereas, I think psychology and calories probably factor in but are not the whole picture. But maybe we need someone like him so that we can end up having the CW come out somewhere in the middle? So, Kurt, do you think that the obesity epidemic is all due to calories in/out and lack of activity or are you somewhere in the middle? I’m seriously considering making some of my family members read “why we get fat”, but if there is “plenty enough evidence already to reject the CH as stated in GCBC” then I need to see this. I don’t want to be like the US and tell everyone to stop eating so many carbs when the science just isn’t there.

        Nutrition is much more confusing than physics :(

        • Robb Wolf
          September 14, 2011 at 9:58 am

          OH! Nutrition is MUCH more confusing than physics…biological systems contain ALL the complexity of the sub-atomic world, then we add these remarkably dynamic systems. I have a BIG blog post brewing on this, but we need to keep with the Evolutionary Discordance Theory. Sleep, light, plant toxins, vit-d, stress, inactivity…it ALL provides vectors into this current situation. I love Stephan’s palatability work but it’s well accounted for within the EDT, especially when we consider the potential of certain plant constituents having opiate/dopaminanergic properties. Something almost all these folks are missing is that sepsis/endotoxemia can induce insulin/leptin resistance INSTANTLY. Folks need to back up and take a much larger view of all this, all the while keeping all the details in place. It’s a monumental task and easy to lose some of the pieces.

        • Kurt Harris MD
          September 14, 2011 at 12:58 pm

          Read Stephan Guyenet’s posts on the CH – about 3 or four of his most recent. If that can’t convince you, you probably don’t want to be convinced.

          It is important to be clear that we are speaking about HOW we get fat, not whether LC diets or LF diets or low FR diets or anything else works for fat loss. I’ve had great success in using first, LC whole foods, and now macronutrient agnostic whole foods diets to both lose fat and keep it off over years, in myself and in patients and readers.

          When I say the CH is not true, I mean the specific idea that total carbohydrate consumption is the main driver of obesity via the postprandial rise in insulin from the carbohydrate consumption. That model is not supported by either the totality of laboratory evidence or anthropological and ethnological evidence to date.

          This is an important argument because although I stipulate, as most people do, that LC diets can be highly efficacious, if the CH is true, then it implies that one cannot hope to lose fat or be healthy without low carbohydrate consumption, and that ONLY low carb diets can be healthy. I think this is just not true.

          It changes the model from “I am not fat on high carb because I am resistant or adapted to a poison” to ” I am not fat on high carb because it is perfectly natural and healthy to eat them”.

          I believe eating LC when starting from the SAD changes a whole lot more than just the ratio of carbohydrates in the diet.

          This may sound like a subtle difference, but it is not. If we really care about what causes nutritional transitions in populations from health to DOCs, and how to eat healthy in the here and now, we have to be accurate about what factors are really involved, and not just promote a theory that rolls of the tongue but is actually wrong.

          • Stephanie
            September 14, 2011 at 4:46 pm

            Thanks for the info; that was definitely good evidence against the insulin hypothesis. Could it be that carbs could still be a significant factor towards the fattening of us all, even if the exact hypothesis of carbs->insulin->fat cells accumulate fat isn’t true? I guess Gary could be right about it being the easily digested carbs (sugar and flour) that primarily cause obesity (ie. “carbs are uniquely fattening”), but wrong about it being due to insulin’s effect on fat cells, so that would make him half right :) It could be that the sugar/flour-based carbs are addicting, especially for some people (ME!) and lead to overeating which, combined with marketing/brainwashing, makes it hard to not overeat them. Maybe low carb %-age allows you to limit your total food intake easier because we don’t get as hungry when we eat low carb? Maybe it is something other than these factors that tracks with intake of carbs or bad carbs? Maybe Robb and the wheat belly guy are right and wheat is a major factor, or anti-nutrients? Could it be we are evolutionarily designed to overeat when lots of carbs (veggies and fruit) are easily available (summertime) to allow us to store more fat to survive winter? Maybe we are designed to only eat lots of carbs occasionally and not year round? Is it true that people don’t gain weight on very low carb even if they overeat calories? I can’t remember where I saw that. Sigh. So many questions.

            What about what Gary says about carb consumption and your lipid profiles, i.e., that HDL goes up and triglycerides down, and LDL become large and fluffy when you eat less carbs? If true, isn’t that good evidence that LC is at least heart healthy?

          • Jared
            September 14, 2011 at 6:07 pm

            I have read Stephen Guyenet’s posts, and I am utterly convinced that eating a lot of carbohydrates does not lead to obesity or diabetes, something Taubes would have agreed a few years ago now, perhaps?

            Again, though, I think that’s an easy point to prove. The thing that is completely glossed over is low-carbohydrate diets. For me, this is the main crux of the CH: losing weight without hunger, and without calorie-restriction, and losing more weight than diets with hunger and calorie restriction, all simply by controlling the number of carbohydrates. This is not a trivial result.

            I mean, what about completely metabolically deranged people? These are the people I thought low-carb was targeted at, and maybe it is the ONLY way to be healthy for them?

            If not, if someone severely overweight asks me how to lose weight, do I tell them to go on the paleo diet? Can they eat all the potatoes they want but stay away from the grains and sugar? Will that be as effective as cutting out starches for them?

            This is why I’m annoyed by this recent ‘attack’ on the carbohydrate hypothesis. It seems to be attacking the notion that eating too many carbohydrates is a sufficient condition for getting fat. At this point, that seems to be a giant strawman to me. No one is telling healthy, skinny people, to go on a low-carb diet (not even Taubes).

            Low-carbohydrate diets work, and they work better than low-fat/low-calorie diets. Are they the best diets? I don’t know, but it seems like the best advice I can give to others right now as far as the clinical evidence goes.

            I would love to see more science on all of this, especially with the Paleo diet involved.

            Thanks for your response.

  9. craig almaguer
    September 13, 2011 at 11:12 am

    Grass Feed and FINISHED (key question to always ask the farmer), always remember that question when sourcing your meats.

    • Kurt Harris MD
      September 13, 2011 at 1:33 pm

      Correct

      ALL beef is grass fed at some point. There is really not much beef that eats nothing but grains from birth, AFAIK.

      The only logical meaning to “grass fed” IS grass finished, so that is the plain english term that I insist on using, notwithstanding those who lie about their beef by calling it “grass fed but grain finished” or whatever..

      • Daniel F.
        September 13, 2011 at 2:53 pm

        I could be wrong, but doesn’t the exclusively grassfed beef have on the label “100% Grassfed” when it’s sold in stores like Whole Foods, Trader Joe’s and other supermarkets? I usually assume that if it doesn’t have the “100%” on the label the animals were feed grains at some point.

  10. rg
    September 13, 2011 at 1:06 pm

    Stellar episode! Been waiting for this one.

    I don’t eat as much fish as I should. Which means, I rarely eat fish. Main reason is that I always seem to get burpy from it. My wife gets the same.

    So, while it sounds like a daily intake of fish oil may no longer be a reco, I am wonder, what about using supplements 3x a week, instead of eating fish? What would be the downside?

    Thanks for everything, gents.

  11. Renae
    September 13, 2011 at 1:30 pm

    Long episode, but well worth it. I love that Dr. Kurt Harris has been called the honey badger of evolutionary medicine. Absolutely brilliant. And Robb, seriously, you need to watch that video. It’s hilarious, especially after a couple of margs.

    I just want to say that I am so glad [the majority] of the paleo community continues working to find the answers, and when you and others find that you were wrong about something, you admit it. It’s refreshing given that this is not the case with organizations like the USDA (hearthealthywholegrains and arterycloggingsaturatedfat).

    So thanks guys!

  12. Mary
    September 13, 2011 at 6:57 pm

    Dr. Harris mentions that his only fat source is animal fat, which he has recently reduced in favor of starch. He goes on to say that on an evolutionary basis we are designed to eat either starch or animal fat, mirroring how our cells can switch between fatty acids and glucose for fuel. I’d be interested in hearing other thoughts on this, especially with regards to coconut fat, which is highly recommended in the paleo world. Is eating the ‘healthy’ n-6 fats, olives, avocados, even on a limited basis, a problem? Shall I only cook with tallow? Am I over-thinking?

    P.S. Robb, I so relate to being annoyed with meals that involve lots of vegetable preparation. My boyfriend keeps bringing bags and bags full of veg from the farmer’s market and I only want a sweet potato and a slab o’ meat.

    • Robb Wolf
      September 13, 2011 at 7:03 pm

      I love coconut and use it frequently. I think using olives & avocados as condiments & not primary fat sources is fine, especially when overlaid upon grassfed/pastured animal products.

  13. J
    September 13, 2011 at 6:59 pm

    The honey badger cracked me up. Thanks for this.

  14. Robb Wolf
    September 13, 2011 at 7:32 pm

    This is not the paper I was looking for on endurance athletes & atrial fibrillation, but the information is referenced:
    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090621143221.htm

    • chuck
      September 14, 2011 at 7:03 am

      let us know when you do dig up that olympic athlete/heart health article you referenced. i believe you said it came out very recently. it sounds very interesting.

  15. Rob Is
    September 13, 2011 at 8:57 pm

    I’m very happy to have to listen to this over THREE subways rides— It’s like a double album- glorious.

    Thanks for putting my questions in there and for your answers. I guess i need to Kressler’s podcast with Masterjohn next!

    Thanks again!

  16. Marshall
    September 13, 2011 at 8:59 pm

    I was in France to celebrate my birthday for 10 days eating a non-paleo diet and drinking lots and lots of wine and I never got a hangover. Contrary to popular belief, the French eat a lot at lunch and dinner. All the food has a lot of good butter and cream, the salad greens are dressed with non-industrial vinaigrette, and the food comes out slow. Then you eat dessert and drink an espresso. Leisure is the name of the game over there. And my pants fit just the same the day I came back to the states, a tribute to the low stress lifestyle. But what’s with the lack of hangovers? I used to work with a Russian guy who claimed if you ate a hunk of butter before drinking vodka, you could avoid a hangover. Is it something about the way the liver metabolizes certain fats along with the alcohol?

  17. Chad lemus
    September 13, 2011 at 9:06 pm

    Has anyone else seen this? Hopefully more will be interested in speaking up on the subject.
    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/09/13/fda-to-ban-new-supplements-and-classify-them-like-food-preservatives.aspx

  18. Josh Frey
    September 13, 2011 at 10:00 pm

    Kurt Harris is amazing. I just wish he’d update his website more!

    Listening to the podcast, it’s kind of interesting how interconnected everyone in this sort of “counter conventional wisdom” movement is. I was kind of surprised to hear him mention Chris Masterjohn, but yeah, that guy is great.

  19. Lance Strish
    September 13, 2011 at 10:00 pm

    At 51min30s re: dairy and cancer “haven’t seen the evidence”

    What about 5alpha-pregnanedione?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVit5K3hgsM&feature=BFa&list=PL53AA35449C7DD652&lf=PlayList#t=30m10s
    ‘acne and cancer.pdf’ – http://is.gd/T7y3lt

    PDF also says ‘all one needs to do is take a history to learn that extensive back acne is almost exclusively due to excess dairy intake, but not always milk’ I think Robb spoke about this once (?)

    • Kurt Harris MD
      September 14, 2011 at 10:07 am

      I’m open to reading any actual peer reviewed references you might have that show dairy causes cancer in humans. I’ve not seen any convincing evidence yet, only inferences drawn from basic science or weak epidemiology, or fraudulent work by colin campbell, etc. You can prove anything causes cancer with armchair reasoning.

      Do you have any real references?

      • Robb Wolf
        September 14, 2011 at 12:03 pm

        Pedro Bastos’ work/presentation at the AHS painted the cancer/dairy connection in a very dubious light. it sitll makes me nervous to some degree, dairy def gives me acne (other than butter/cream) but where once I felt strong in this stance, I can’t in good conscience push this like I once did.
        http://vimeo.com/27671369

        • Kurt Harris MD
          September 14, 2011 at 1:02 pm

          It’s been over year since I did much digging on dairy, so I’ll have to listen to that talk by Pedro.

  20. Martin
    September 14, 2011 at 6:28 am

    Some of the controversy that might arise after this podcast is probably due to a misunderstanding who Dr. Harris directs his dietary advise at. I won’t be people suffering from problems like the metabolic syndrome, insulin resistance, diabetes, obesity, autoimmune issues, etc. Instead Dr. Harris advise is aimed at healthy people, with none if the above mentioned problems, who simple want some tuning of the diet with respect to sugar and gluten. Makes sense to me.

    • Kurt Harris MD
      September 14, 2011 at 10:14 am

      Why would a diet that spontaneously reduces calories, eliminates gluten grains and excess fructose and excess linoleic acid not be appropriate for people with metabolic syndrome, Type II diabetes, or autoimmune diseases?

      It has worked well for all these things in many of my patients, as well as for me personally for substantial fat maintained fat loss.

      It just happens to also be a diet that one can tolerate and maintain your health on even if you start it while feeling fine.

  21. Dan
    September 14, 2011 at 7:04 am

    Good pod cast thanks.

    I know this is completely off topic, I seem to remember a throw away comment about a philosophy paper on not being able to convince someone of something. I don’t suppose there is a reference handy to this?

    Cheers,
    Dan.

  22. Michael in OK
    September 14, 2011 at 11:21 am

    In all of this discussion about starch perhaps not being so bad, is anyone looking at the longevity implications, in terms of AGE production, glycosylation, and protein cross-linking?

    I seem to remember reading from Nora Gedgaudas’ book that fat was a cleaner burning fuel than carbohydrates, and was therefore much better from a longevity perspective.

    Also, another thing I would like to see more attention to is the theory of intermittent or restricted protein intake as another possible emerging longevity enhancer.

  23. Maryann
    September 14, 2011 at 12:59 pm

    holy crap… my grandkids showed me the honey badger on YouTube this weekend. Hilarious!

  24. Dean
    September 15, 2011 at 5:25 am

    Interesting podcast, though I after listening I think Kurt is not the ‘honey badger’, rather he is Oscar the Grouch! (he must live in ‘tin can’ to get such a bad echo on his skype ;-)
    One thing Kurt said that I thoroughly agree with – Chris Masterjohn is the man when it comes to lipids, which brings me to ask if you have any plans to get him on your show at all? I have listened multiple times to his Duology of excellent interviews with Chris Kresser multiple times (already) and still want more. I am sure you can squeeze some more juice out of Masterjohn.
    Cheers!

  25. Joni Moore
    September 15, 2011 at 12:27 pm

    What Causes Heart Attacks?
    Part of the answer (maybe a big part!) to “what causes heart attacks” might come from a surprising place. See this recent journal article about tight muscles related to cardiovascular disease.
    http://ajpheart.physiology.org/content/297/4/H1314.full

    Then check out Katy Bowman at Restorative Exercise in Ventura, CA (her blog is Katysays.com). She’s a biomechanist who puts the laws of physics together with anatomy. She teaches that tight muscles are NOT just about joints, it is an indication of a much bigger problem. Tight muscles have arterioles that never get to relax. Blood pressure stays high, plaque accumulates.
    People, even well respected scientists, always want to go for the “genetics” component. But genetics is like a big black void. When you don’t know the answer you can’t just blame it on ‘genetics.’ Cardiovascular disease runs in families…but the link could be postural habits that are learned as well as tendencies that are inherited. Nerves and blood vessels control/effect organ function and that in turn is effected by skeletal alignment. Also, blood is circulated throughout the body by the heart and BY THE MOVEMENT OF MUSCLES. If your joints are misaligned, muscles are tight or loose and do not function optimally, blood does not flow optimally, blood pressure in the thoracic cavity goes up. It’s all basic physics!!
    Love these podcasts, guys! Thanks!

  26. Lance Strish
    September 15, 2011 at 7:33 pm

    Marathons, overtraining… checkout EdNorton (of FightClub etc) talk about running with the Masai and gaining weight in certain places (cortisol?):
    http://www.youtube.com/user/LatestinHealthNews#p/u/0/F1p8Ttb3q4U

  27. Janis
    September 16, 2011 at 11:00 am

    Petros,

    Thanks for your insight, but yes, after being a veg for so long, I was strict and true to my beliefs as was Robb (well, in order to get the hippie chicks) anyway, it was no chicken or fish as some “vegetarians” added to their diet. Pretty black and white, hardly any gray for me. So, with me being only 8 months into the Paleo, and yes, I too have occasionally had a few nachos here and there, I was just a little bewildered at some of the discussion on the podcast. I have to admit I wasn’t familiar with Dr. Harris. The books I’ve read about the Paleo diet all convey the message that it is to simply eat meats, poultry, fish, veggies, fruit and nuts, like the caveman, then I questioned well, when does the corn tortilla fit in? I guess that’s what confused me a bit. I’m all for adapting and evolving with the science and evidence, that’s what drew me into this. It made sense. I am definitely not a food hypochondriac that’s for sure. I don’t do it for weight loss, even though that was a plus, but for other health/autoimmune reasons. So, thank you for your comment and I do appreciate everything that Robb and the rest of the Paleo community does.

  28. Charlie
    September 16, 2011 at 12:52 pm

    I have to admit that the sudden downplaying of the carbohydrate hypothesis confused me too. Especially after losing 40 lb since Jan by reducing carbs. (Not quite in ketosis though.) Really gave me a “WTF Robb?!” moment.

    Maybe the carb/insulin thing is biochemically wrong, but it sure seems to match practical reality. Any alternative hypothesis would have to re-explain an awful lot. Looks lIke I have some reading to catch up on.

    Suggestion for an alternative hypothesis: Fat intake triggers satiety and sugar promotes appetite, so the easiest way to cut calories is to ditch the carbs and keep the fat. 7 months of food logs with weekly cheat days suggest this. The magic number for me seems to be about 2 oz of fat per meal.

    Glad to see you guys are lightening up on the evils of beans though. Cheap and tasty!

    • Robb Wolf
      September 16, 2011 at 1:55 pm

      Charlie-
      This is part of why it’s EASY to get dogmatic about the low-carb deal. We were CLEAR in the discussion that if one is metabolically broken carbs should absolutely be limited. We said this multiple timess. Yet, somehow, many, many people have become “confused”. When you are trying to get the masses moving forward, I’m discovering nuance is a problematic feature.

      Mat is a dear friend but this is one of my frustrations with him. He wants to articulate a level of scientific rigor, that largely confuses the masses who do not have the background to read through the details. The question of what DOES cause obesity/insulin resistance is almost meaningless in my mind given the fact we only have one way to really FIX the problem, and that is limit carbohydrate. And exercise, and get vit-d etc. It is again part of this evolutionary discordance theory…but it;s hard as hell to talk evolution too! I guess it just takes time.

      I’ll not be eating many beans.

      • Charlie
        September 16, 2011 at 3:18 pm

        Yep, the general public as a whole doesn’t quite understand science as a way of thinking. Those of us who do understand it often don’t have time or patience to dig through all the latest studies. Good thing we have people like you to filter and translate.

        I might have to listen to this episode again. This time without the usual distractions.

        • Charlie
          September 19, 2011 at 8:32 am

          Okay I went back and listened to the whole thing again. Let’s see if I got it this time: The carbohydrate hypothesis, that carbs *cause* insulin resistance and the diseases of civilization, might be wrong. That’s why it’s called a hypothesis and not a theory. But low-carb as a *treatment* for insulin resistance (and excess body fat) still works. So it’s almost two different subjects.

          This could explain why people from rice-eating cultures typically stay skinny on their traditional diet, but quickly plump up and go diabetic when McD’s and Coca-Cola are introduced. And how it’s even possible to “stall” on LC. But the LC-as-treatment angle explains how sick insulin resistant people often cure themselves through diet.

          I like what both of you had to say about not wasting energy trying to help those who don’t want it. Wish more people in the wider culture would adopt that view. Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion still. Flies and honey.

          The anti-eveything reputation reminds me of how the media used to crap bricks about Atkins. So much meat! No fruit! You’re gonna die!!! Never mind that this was only for the first few weeks. Sometimes people can’t be bothered to read the rest of the plan.

          Suggestion for a podcast topic: Any ideas for the best way to lose those last stubborn 5-10 pounds of fat around the middle?

          • Robb Wolf
            September 19, 2011 at 9:31 am

            THAT’S IT! it’s an easy mistake to make…the cure (low carb diet) MUST relate in some way to the cause. And in ways it does, but when we are trying to paint a comprehensive picture, if we put forward that carbs unequivocally CAUSE insulin resistance, we need only one example of this to prove it wrong. Kitavans? This si similar to the “meat causes cancer” notion. Anser: Inuit.

            that is all completely observational, not a stitch of mechanism or proposed or discussed, but if we have the EXCEPTION that hypothesis is false, we need to do more digging.

            We can certainly do a podcast on stubborn fat loss, but I’ve also put together a guide that will be available soon on just this topic.

      • Charlie
        September 16, 2011 at 3:53 pm

        By the way: Thanks for interviewing awesome people once in a while! Always good to hear new info from slightly different points of view.

      • Janis
        September 17, 2011 at 6:32 am

        Thank you for clarifying this Robb. I’m glad that we are able to discuss this and I apologize for my “confusion!” My mind must have wondered off a bit! Ditto about the beans!

        • Robb Wolf
          September 17, 2011 at 7:43 am

          No worries, We will end up talking a lot about special circumstances, but that does nto change the basics!

  29. Ollie
    September 17, 2011 at 4:46 am

    Great Podcast Rob, Dr.Kurt Harris really does throw some truth bombs out, but I’d say I can’t agree more, after reading through the book – omega 6 the devils fat, I’ve been limiting omega 6 for ages, it makes so much more sense to limit omega 6 content from refined oils, grain fed meat, poultry and loads of nuts. When you think about it, prescribing fish oil while someone is eating excess omega 6 is like a doctor prescribing statins for heart disease, they are both just addressing the symptoms of inflammation, instead of removing the cause of the inflammation, excess n6, shit if you sell fish oil though.

    Love the rice crispy’s for breakfast, thats certainly a curve ball, gluten free though and I agree low carb is all relative, if you are a screwed up sugar craving type 2 diabetic or have yeast over growth, low carb, but if not, I really don’t think the root cause of illness is unprocessed carbs like sweet potato’s, banana’s and rice.

    Sorry about rambling on, but I can’t exactly talk to normal people about this, they have lives unlike me!

    • Robb Wolf
      September 17, 2011 at 7:45 am

      Ha! And you will find NO normal people around here!

      • Paleo Pupil
        September 20, 2011 at 8:20 am

        Robb, were you called “special” a lot as a kid? I was too :P

        • Robb Wolf
          September 20, 2011 at 11:29 am

          No, more annoying due to my non-stop questions. Not well tolerated in sunday school. the folks teeaaching it asked my parents to not bring me back after 2 visits…

    • Peter
      September 17, 2011 at 8:44 am

      Rice Krispies are not gluten-free! They contain malt flavoring which is made from barley, a gluten-containing grain. This small gluten exposure may not be enough to bother most people, but it is for those of us who are autoimmune or are super reactive to gluten.

  30. Sue
    September 17, 2011 at 11:59 am

    Enjoyed this podcast very much. I have done a total 180, from former vegetarian to the PHD-version of Paleo after reading the Jaminets’ book. Very impressed with how easy it was to lose the muffin-top despite cutting back on the daily 4:30 am workouts. Am currently experimenting with limiting eating to an 8-hour window a couple of times a week, and love the total lack of hunger pangs.
    Am also in total agreement about not banging one’s head against the wall trying to get others to see the value of this. I don’t talk about it with coworkers, and only shared some links with family members, answering any questions they have without getting preachy. The only exception to this is my son, who was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis at 17 (that sad day is when I began the search that lead me from low-fat vegetarian to Paleo). Despite pharmaceutical intervention he has yet to attain any remission and his UC is seriously impacting his life as he begins college. It breaks my heart to see my once-healthy son become so physically fragile. So I ignore the eye-rolling and negative comments and continue to share information as much as I can, in the hopes he will abandon his pizza and pasta-laden diet (not easy on the dorm’s meal plan).
    Love your blog Robb, and will be visiting Dr. Harris’ now too. Thanks so much.

  31. Scott
    September 17, 2011 at 8:07 pm

    Question for Dr. Harris – you mention on your fat post that you add the deer fat into the ground meat. I have always avoided it, not because I don’t want the fat but because the deer fat can have a waxy feel to the palate if the meat is not pretty warm. How is the taste? Have you rendered any of the fat for tallow/lard? If so how does it work in the kitchen?

    I have always left the heart and liver, but decieded after eating beef liver for the first time in the summer this years deer liver was going home. I’ve acquired a taste for liver, onions and pastured eggs for breakfast.

    Scott

  32. Lori Calhoun
    September 17, 2011 at 10:25 pm

    You seemed taken aback at the “anti-milk guy” reputation. Wasn’t it on your podcast that you referred to milk as “filtered cows blood” (which is awesome..by the way).

  33. Scott C
    September 19, 2011 at 9:19 pm

    Robb, Great podcast episode. I was thankful to hear you and Dr. Harris discuss Huntington’s disease a little bit more than you have in previous podcasts. A friend of mine has HD; he is not yet showing symptoms, but his dad’s symptoms didn’t begin until his early thirties (my friend is 30 y/o now). My desire is to help my friend as much as I can, so I told him that a ketogenic diet could potentially curb some of the symptoms of HD. I have read through some pub med articles describing tests on mice with similar brain issues as HD; one said there was positive change in the mice another said ketosis did not benefit the mice. Here are my questions to you, Do you know of people with HD who have had success with a ketogenic diet? It doesn’t seem like there is very much good information about ketosis benefiting HD sufferers. Will you please point me to some helpful resources? If all you can say is, “Keep looking,” then that’s what I will do.
    Thanks for all your efforts to get to the root of much disease. Your work is not in vain.
    Scott

    • Robb Wolf
      September 20, 2011 at 12:43 pm

      Scott-
      We had 2 examples of folks with early on-set, aggressive HD see remission with a standard gluten free paleo diet. I do not think ketosis is necessary, we suspect gluten cross reactivity/transglutaminase issues are at play here. We have a clear direction to go with clinical trials…and no way to fund it. Yet. the autoimmune protocol in the book or downloads section is all these folks need to get going. 30 days will determine if it works or not.

      • Scott C
        September 27, 2011 at 9:35 pm

        Robb,
        Thank you. I wish I had bags of cash to put toward your trials.

        • Robb Wolf
          September 28, 2011 at 6:52 am

          Thanks Scott. When we get more people doing this stuff, say like a million or 10 million, an we go to pass the hat around to fund research, it’ll come down to all of us pitching in a dollar or two. or five…but it’ll be EASY to get done what needs to be done. That day is fast approaching.

  34. Hannah
    September 20, 2011 at 4:26 am

    So what kind of diet is advisable for someone who weighs over 500 pounds and is an isulin dependent type 2 diabetic on blood pressure medicine etc.

    • Amy Kubal
      September 20, 2011 at 5:12 am

      Get them started on a Paleo style of eating – the weight will start coming off for sure. My guess is there are quite a few diet and lifestyle changes that are going to have some major health promoting effects for this person! Depending on the individual’s willingness to change you may have more luck starting small – even one meal at a time. Although, if you can convince them to go ‘all-in’ that would be ideal and really help get them healthy faster.

  35. gg
    September 20, 2011 at 7:56 am

    I found the embracing of ambiguity and nuance presented in this podcast refreshing and encouraging. To bring on a person that has a slightly different take on things, and discuss it in the spirit of collaboration on trying to figure things out, highlights the best part of the scientific method.

    To go from facts and ideas and then re-evaluate their position (e.g., Fish Oil recommendation vis-a-vis uptake rates and bottle necking) is something we don’t see enough of in society.

    Understanding the mechanics of Paleo should never be based on dogma. I think this podcast/interview did a wonderful job representing critical thinking and reflection.

    • Robb Wolf
      September 20, 2011 at 12:38 pm

      Thanks for the kind words. We definitely need to be willing to burn the house down if we see better data come through.

  36. kevin
    September 20, 2011 at 2:32 pm

    So, just to be clear, I’m still doing ok avoiding grains, legumes, most dairy, eating meat, fish, eggs, & veggies from a good source? Little coconut oil and a few avocados here and there? Lifting heavy things, running through the woods with the dog, playing with the kids and sleeping 8-9 hours?

  37. CK
    September 20, 2011 at 5:59 pm

    Is it really true that regular potatoes have less anti-nutrients than sweet potatoes/yams?

    GREAT podcast…..really excellent stuff!

    Thanks!

  38. Alexandra
    September 26, 2011 at 3:19 pm

    Excellent interview! I hope you have Dr. Harris back — he’s informative and entertaining — great combo. I found the part about his self-experimentation so interesting but wonder if there were change in his A1C or post-prandial glucose or lipids despite no weight regain.

  39. Igal
    September 30, 2011 at 8:38 am

    Thanks for the broadcast – good stuff.

    Just one thing that bothered me – Greg used the word “auschwitz” at least twice, or I would say misused the word.
    I find it somewhat disturbing, using the concentration camp’s name as an adjective.

    Thanks,
    Igal

    • Igal
      September 30, 2011 at 8:59 am

      Sorry for accusing the wrong guy – it was not Greg, misusing the word, but Dr. Harris.

  40. Nick
    January 22, 2013 at 2:14 pm

    It sounded like Kurt Harris was saying:
    - Ketosis = starvation.
    - You only create ketone bodies during periods of no food.
    - You need to eat some carbs to get glucose for your brain.

    The first 2 sound off to me because we know you can eat to satiety every day and still be in ketosis. Ketosis does not mean no food, it means no/very low carbs. You can fill yourself up with proteins and fats and still be in ketosis. And while eating all those fats and *proteins* your body can create the glucose that your brain needs through gluconeogenesis.

    Kurt Harris is obviously much smarter than I am especially on this topic so I think I must be just missing his point.

    • Robb Wolf
      January 22, 2013 at 4:00 pm

      Nick-
      Not sur eon that…obviously cna be in ketosis and isocaloric.

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