The Paleo Solution – Episode 69

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Chris Kresser joins us on today’s episode to talk about all things Paleo!!  No list of detailed questions or show notes this week – we just abstracted all the questions he received and consolidated them into key topics to discuss.  Enjoy!!

  1. Chris’ Background
  2. Dairy
  3. Fish Oil
  4. Safe Starches
  5. Intermittent Fasting
  6. Constipation on a Paleo Diet
  7. Leaky Gut

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  1. Lindsay Rodkey
    March 1, 2011 at 6:24 am

    Super excited to hear Andy mention getting good raw milk in Indiana! I’m guessing from The Swiss Connection? Love their butter, and can’t until more is available in April-ish.

    • Mark
      March 7, 2011 at 11:17 am

      Hey Lindsey ~

      Not sure what part of IN you’re from, but there’s a place (Apple Family Farm) located in McCordsville that does a cow-sharing program.

  2. Andy
    March 1, 2011 at 9:26 am

    Chris mentions N-3 intake increases MDA.. What does that acronym stand for?

  3. Daniel
    March 1, 2011 at 1:12 pm

    Dear Dr. Chris,

    What insurance’s do you accept and do you take new patients?

    Thanks,

    Daniel

  4. David Leitner
    March 1, 2011 at 1:43 pm

    Robb, You were just mentioned on my other favorite podcast (Back to Work with Merlin Mann)! Worlds collide!

  5. Greg Iafeliece
    March 1, 2011 at 1:53 pm

    This episode reminded me of a Huffington Post blog touting the Veggie agenda.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathy-freston/we-can-lean-into-a-better_b_827716.html

    How much petrol, chemicals, genetic modification and etc.. goes into vegetables?

  6. Jay
    March 1, 2011 at 2:50 pm

    Hey Robb, recently read the new paleo book on the market called Perfect Health Diet. In it they are pretty adamant one not consume protein beyond 600cals/day. They talk about nitrogen production and how it turns into cyanide and about autophagy and how it doesn’t work if you have too much protein in the diet. The only references they give for this are six rat studies done specifically targeting methionine, in which increasing the methionine content of this rat diet does in fact decrease longevity in the rats, it is however a diet with isolated nutrients and amino acids and not even actually real food or from what I can tell even standard rat chow. That doesn’t mean it’s incorrect, but it makes me wonder if it’s at all applicable to humans. And as far as autophagy, they give two references done in some worm showing increased life span from autophagy via protein restriction. I know Matt recently stated on your podcast that autophagy can be achieved via fasting or even just protein fasting once or twice a week. Given this claim based on what seems to me to be maybe not the best research, does restricting protein to 600cals/day really turn on autophagy and reduce the bad effects of excess methionine consumption? If they may be correct about methionine consumption in excess and decreased longevity and autophagy extending life span, can protein fasting a couple times per week do the same thing as restricting protein to 600cals/day?

  7. Steven
    March 1, 2011 at 2:54 pm

    Guys,

    Great interview and always interested to see when Zen comes into the discussion. I would love to see the discussion expanded on that subject in future episodes. I have been a formal student of Soto Zen for some time now.

    Robb, I was checking out Mr. Kresser’s site and saw his new blog post on A1C as a reliable marker. I know he states using all four to get a comprehensive picture but likes the post meal glucose test as a go to test if he had to choose one as marker for future indicators of heart disease and diabetes (believe I got that right). I was curious of your thoughts? or if it really matters in the long run as you periodically check these markers?

    http://chriskresser.com/blog/why-hemoglobin-a1c-is-not-a-reliable-marker/

    Thanks for everything you guys do.

    Respectfully,
    Steven

  8. Johanna
    March 1, 2011 at 3:05 pm

    Funny story about vegans-
    I love poking fun at vegans and vegetarians, and in the musical world I live in there are a lot of opportunities to do so, but I found one thing we Paleo folks share with vegans:

    Neither of us will eat pizza.

    Great podcast. Btw- raw milk is available in CT. My husband enjoys it occasionally. I have PCOS so no dairy for me.

    • CZ
      March 5, 2011 at 10:45 am

      I thought this comment was pretty funny. I was vegan for MANY years and just recently “fell off the wagon.” It’s funny that even though I now would consume some cheese I still don’t eat pizza. People are always amazed, but it makes me feel terrible. I haven’t completely “gone Paleo” but I am moving into eating more animal products and cutting out bread, pasta and rice completely. Aw, vegans. I love them but hate what their diet did to my body and health.

    • julianne
      March 7, 2011 at 4:12 pm

      What I find interesting is the raw vegan diet. Many people report great results when they start it, like remission of auto-immune disease, gut issues and skin clearing up.
      What does it have in common with a paleo diet?
      The exclusion of dairy, legumes and grains, refined vegetable oils and sugar.

      Many people end up with health issues long term and end up adding animal products back into their diets though.

      • Robb Wolf
        March 7, 2011 at 8:55 pm

        We talk about raw vegan a bit tomorrow in podcast, I think you are spot on with this.

  9. Marty
    March 1, 2011 at 4:18 pm

    Hi Guys,

    Thanks for the discussion regarding, ah.. slow transit. Very helpful information to take on board. Here in Brisbane raw milk goes by ‘bath milk’ sold as a ‘cosmetic product’. Chris: awesome to hear you’re a surfer, do you get out much?

  10. Michael Asgian
    March 1, 2011 at 4:26 pm

    Chris was mentioning the presence of lactase in raw milk. I’m puzzled…

  11. Jeff
    March 1, 2011 at 4:36 pm

    Alrighty, so that podcast opened up a whole box of worms with me. I use seed oils a lot when cooking because I like the taste and supposedly the oils don’t get destroyed as much when cooked as olive oil. Chris’ comments today about simply lowering Omega 6 intake and eating plenty of fish to get adequate Omega 3 intake resonated with me, however I am at a loss as to what oils I should use when cooking now. I don’t have raw butter available to me at the moment and I don’t like the flavor of coconut oil to use with cooking everything. So if I want to continue using oils in my cooking like I love to do, what ones are the best to limit omega 6 intake???

    • Derrick
      March 2, 2011 at 5:22 am

      it’s pretty slim if coconut oil and butter out out of the equation. beef tallow is an option- from a grassfed source of course. and though higher in o6, i find myself cooking alot of stuff in bacon fat… soooo good.

      • Jeff
        March 2, 2011 at 11:58 am

        Thanks for the input Derrick, I actually did some research yesterday ofcourse as well after getting my boat rocked :P. And I overturned a couple great other options as well, in Avocado and Palm oil. Avocado oil is very similar to Olive oil (mostly Monounsaturated fat those nasty omega 6s), but it has a much higher smoke point, the highest of any oil in fact. And apparently palm oil (with a composition in between that of olive and coconut oil) is the most commonly used oil in the world, despite not being common in the US. It is supposed to be especially good for frying and oriental dishes. Combine this with Olive oil for low temp cooking, coconut oil and bacon fat (as you suggested) and I have a ton of options to use depending on what dish I’m using! I’m very glad I decided to watch yesterdays podcast now, I’ve been making the seed oil mistake for a couple months now, whew…

        • Ron
          March 3, 2011 at 6:05 am

          Jeff: If your goal is to lower your O6 intake, why even consider using palm oil, which is about 9.3% PUFA by weight? Palm kernel oil is only 1.6% PUFA (coconut oil as a comparison is 1.8%). I made the mistake of buying palm oil which I thought was really high in saaturated fat, but it turned out it was palm kernel oil that was high in saturated fat. In case you’re not aware, you can go to the USDA link below to search food composition of your favorite eats:
          http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

          Regards Ron

          • Jeff
            March 7, 2011 at 10:37 am

            Ron: Thanks for the input, coincidentally I stumbled upon the same unfortunate info (I’m starting to accumulate a lot of useless oil…haha) last night. It’s ratio doesn’t seem as bad as most oils and even better that anything fowl (I’m talking about birds…), however definitely inferior to coconut oil, beef tallow (like derrick suggested), butter and macadamia oil. If my research was correct even olive oil and avocado oil contain some level of undesirable Pufas similar to Palm oil. Also, grass fed butter provides some of those much need Mk-4 K2’s and has the appropriate 1:1 6/3 ratio, I guess it is time to shift more in that direction when cooking. I’ve always been a Paleo eater nervous about dairy (as I started eating Paleo because it made sense to me evolutionary wise, and eating dairy as an adult doesn’t seem to be in line with the logic), even butter, but it seems it is my best option until I start getting a hold of some organ meats to eat on a consistent basis. Geez, this cooking oil topic sure is more complex than I realized, probably makes sense though as it is one thing even us Paleo dieters are manipulating. I don’t think true cave men cooked with oils!

        • Nate
          March 4, 2011 at 12:44 am

          you can try virgin coconut oil instead of extra virgin… here in oz it has quite a bit less of the fragrance so it doesn’t get in the way!

          • Jeff
            March 6, 2011 at 7:33 pm

            Thanks for the suggestion Nate, that is actually a great idea and has made me come to a realization. I’ve talked with my parents a few times about how coconut oil makes food to sweet for me to cook everything with it, where as they do cook everything with it. But now that you mention I do use extra virgin where as they just use virgin and maybe that is why it doesn’t seem to impart the flavor on their foods. I think it is time to downgrade :P, and I really appreciate you taking the time to read my post and make the suggestion, you’ve made a difference in my life :D.

    • Scott L.
      March 3, 2011 at 9:02 am

      You could also use an expeller type coconut oil as they don’t have the strong floavor and odor of coconut. A good neutral flovored cooking oil.

      http://www.tropicaltraditions.com/expeller-pressed_coconut_oil.htm

      • Jeff
        March 7, 2011 at 10:41 am

        Thanks Scott, more great info, just as I said to Nate, a tasteless coconut oil would be perfect as the link you gave me states.

  12. Josh
    March 1, 2011 at 4:57 pm

    Another great podcast. Thanks for clarifying which are the best starches to eat, I always have a little trouble deciding where to get my carbs from.

  13. Tim
    March 1, 2011 at 6:48 pm

    I have to disagree with the concerns over fish oil. conclusions from research have shown the following…

    Indirectly/directly it may:

    -improves fatty acid metabolism and energetics in muscle
    -reverses many of the metabolic issues of insulin resistance and type II diabetes
    -slows down ubinquination of cells and impedes less lysis (hypertrophic growth is more cells added over those broken down).
    -causes neuronal repair
    -it can be tranported and can even cross the blood brain barrier, also acts protectively on long axon neurons in the spinal column.
    -shown to be effective in liver lipid control
    -control myoblast (early myocyte) differentiation
    -upregulate cell production and slow down cell turnover
    -proteasome activity (IkB-α protein expression, and NFkB DNA-binding activity) in serum.
    -effects (change) on IL-6 and its role in mytostatin controls.
    *****The process of IL-6 control seems to be tied to control of ROS/Oxidative damage in the cells resulting from improved fatty acid metabolism and the oxygen free radicals that result. it may also be influenced by the fact that omega-3 is a mild uncouplier of oxidative phosphorylation*******

    • Tom
      March 2, 2011 at 12:16 pm

      I am a bit dismayed to hear Chris’ comments regarding fish oil. It is the 3rd time I have heard this now. The first being from a Dr. Peskin who was interviewed by Jimmy Moore, the second was Chris Masterjohn, and now Chris Kresser.

      Chris Kresser and Chris Masterjohn share many of the same views on nutrition.

  14. CanadianArcticPaleo
    March 1, 2011 at 8:13 pm

    Hey,

    Chris Kesser says “Dark meat poultry with skin on it has about 16 to 18 times more n-6 than even grain fed beef”.

    Kurt Harris’ blog says “Buy whole chickens and grill them – be sure to eat the skin, that’s the best part. Or go to Sam’s club for the 3 lb already roasted chicken – feeds a family of four for $5.”

    Of course there is going to be information in disagreement of each other when one digs deep BUT I did find Chris Kesser’s explanation on skin and dark meat of poultry to be interesting…shocking actually – something I never knew.

    Regards,

    CAP

    • Beth@WeightMaven
      March 10, 2011 at 5:19 pm

      You picked a post from Kurt Harris on how to do paleo “on the cheap.” Harris recommends eating ruminants for the same reason Chris does … to minimize omega 6s. It’s one of his neolithic agents to avoid.

  15. Dean
    March 2, 2011 at 7:25 am

    Didn’t know where else to post this, so here goes…..

    Big fan of the podcast and frequently re-listen and take notes. I have one complaint and it’s been building for while, it seems petty but it’s increasingly becoming irritating…. and that is the audio quality of the podcast.
    I know you guys do it on skype and it is limited by that, but can anything be done to improve it?
    Sometimes Andy’s portion becomes garbled, there is background noise and then there are general spikes on sound levels which when listening via earbuds can really blast your ear drums.
    Do you guys use headsets or table mics?
    Would a small fundraising drive on the forum to get you guys some top quality headsets make any difference? We the listeners have the most to gain from better audio, so I for one would be more than happy to chip in.
    Any improvement by whatever means would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks, and keep up the good work.

    • Tara
      March 2, 2011 at 3:26 pm

      So I’m not the only one! I was wondering if my iTunes was betraying me. Something weird seems to happen about halfway through each podcast where Andy’s voice is impossible to decipher. I suffer through the electronic squealches to hear Rob’s (clear) response.

      • jackie
        March 2, 2011 at 11:07 pm

        That happens to me sometimes too. but I realised that if I rewind the squeaky portion and play it again, the portion comes out perfectly fine. totally weird, try it!

    • Ron
      March 3, 2011 at 6:08 am

      My only complaint is the sound volume. I have to sit in front of my computer to hear it.

    • Anthony DiSante
      March 4, 2011 at 8:14 pm

      The audio issues drive me crazy too. I listen to a lot of podcasts and unfortunately it’s pretty common. On “Planet Money” for example, they love to blast your eardrums with the intro/outro music and then make the actual content nearly inaudible.

      My guess is that people who make podcasts don’t spend much time listening to their own podcasts, so they may not really notice this stuff; or even if they do notice, they don’t listen to every single episode all the way through as we faithful listeners do, so it doesn’t bother them as much.

      The sad thing is, this is super-easy to fix: after recording, just run the output audio file through a compressor/normalizer effect (present in pretty much every audio processing app, like Audacity for example) and it evens everything out nicely.

      • Robb Wolf
        March 6, 2011 at 7:23 pm

        Anthony-
        I do this to “help people” but I’m at a level of busy that everyone’s “easy fixes” would make me just stop doing the podcast. So, at this point it’s podcast + shitty audio, or no podcast.

        I really appreciate the support, we will tinker with what we can to improve things…but unless I’m going to start charging for the podcast and pay someone to process this stuff…what we have is what we have.

      • Adam K
        March 7, 2011 at 7:44 am

        Yeah, I’m with you on this one, Robb – screw “after-processing” – you guys are busy enough. (Sorry, Anthony – good idea, but I’m just being realistic)

        A Snowball mic, though, would work wonders, and they’re ~$65 from Amazon. http://is.gd/QGqm6F Just plug it in, and booya.

        • Robb Wolf
          March 7, 2011 at 9:25 am

          We are going to do everything we can on the front end to improve quality…it’s just got to be time efficient or I’ll go fetal on this.

          • Matt F
            March 8, 2011 at 2:20 pm

            What is the difference beween what you are doing and what they are doing with the Everyday Paleo podcast (other than they are in the same room)? They have pretty good sound quality (probably becaus they are in the same room).

          • Robb Wolf
            March 8, 2011 at 2:29 pm

            LOL! Mat, Yes, it’s a plus being in the same room. Lends itself to sound quality, sharing a meal or having sex. Proximity maters.

          • Matt F
            March 9, 2011 at 3:29 pm

            Dude! Robb, I think they are trying to keep it PG-13 over there on the Everyday Paleo podcast!
            Just thought they might have some super awesome mics you could steal from them.

          • Robb Wolf
            March 9, 2011 at 4:26 pm

            Ha! Considering how many kids they make I think it’s at least NC17!!

            The problem remains, I’m on the road, they are not. Dain (their dj) is also an experienced radio guy doing the show from a studio. Would be great, but impossible for me.

  16. gary martins
    March 2, 2011 at 7:41 am

    you guys should sell paleobrands jerky in larger increments, 16oz etc

  17. John Calhoun
    March 2, 2011 at 11:47 am

    Saw the Nightline paleo segment last night (Tuesday). That was pretty cool. What an honor following yet another Charlie Sheen trainwreck story! At least lots of people probably saw it. If you missed it, it is online at http://abcnews.go.com/nightline.

  18. Brandon
    March 2, 2011 at 1:55 pm

    How much butter/ fclo blend should you use in a day ? And what’s matt lalondes stance on fish oil ? I remember the mention of a dha product . And how much do you use in a day ? I’ve been a die hard paleoer for three years and have been using O3 fish oil for about that amount of time . Am I at risk of mda ? I’m a lean 153# at 5’5 and perform great too at 38yo. I’m a box owner/ operator as well and lecture everyone with the paleo solution to get them started on paleo nutrtion . Im a Lil confused as to where to advise my clients . To fish oil or fclo . I’m good with keeping the O6 fat low low. And quick guide to follow would help

  19. Tara
    March 2, 2011 at 1:58 pm

    Loved this podcast, thanks guys!

    Can you comment on Chris’ stance on the A1C being a useless test? We just had all of ours done (paleo family for a few years) and we all look like we’re on the brink of diabetes! According to Chris’ article, maybe not after all. http://chriskresser.com/blog/why-hemoglobin-a1c-is-not-a-reliable-marker/

    I respect your opinion, and would love to hear what you have to say about this as I know you recommend this test.

    • CanadianArcticPaleo
      March 3, 2011 at 8:49 am

      I’d like to hear more on this as well.

  20. Geoff
    March 2, 2011 at 5:05 pm

    Yeah, the overall audio quality seems much better than earlier episodes, but there seems to be often 1-2 minute isolated segments with awful patches of loud screeches and crackly parts.

  21. Tim
    March 3, 2011 at 4:17 am

    The podcasts with Lalonde and Kesser have been awesome. They seem to be knowledgable enough to talk for hours. I think you need to bring them on again. Sweet!

  22. Jake
    March 3, 2011 at 11:03 am

    Chris:

    Have you ever read the detail behind the Dart 2 trial?. They used crap fish oil as all of these studies do as they are all short of money. The reason that more people died using their fish oil is that they were enduring a shortage of omega 3s.

    What ratio of omega6 to omega 3 do you think we should shoot for. Or do you think the ratio concept is B.S. too

    You should study Dr. William Davis’s work with advanced heart diseased patients. He has achieved plaque reversal in thousands of patients by limited wheat consumption and large doses of fish oil. He recently had a patient achieve a 75% reversal of plaque. That does not sound like fish oil causing oxLDL to me.

  23. Jordano
    March 3, 2011 at 2:24 pm

    Are there show notes for section 6) Constipation. I would love to have this for reference.

  24. Josh
    March 3, 2011 at 6:17 pm

    Hi Robb,

    Since I’ve been a teenager I’ve suffered from what a massage therapist would refer to as “trigger points” – dense knots of muscle tissue through out my body, causing localized and refereed pain as well as limited range of motion. At any given time I am full of them, regardless of physical load or stretching.

    I’ve tried everything from massage to acupuncture, to physio, yoga and so on. Asides from weekly massages I can’t find anything that offers any relief. Could I be lacking something in my diet? I’ve been paleo for about year and although I’ve seen other benefits in my body it has had no effect on these trigger points. Any advice on how to help reduce these would be welcome. I’m desperate.

  25. Matt
    March 4, 2011 at 6:09 pm

    Just wondering if you guys know anything about Tamoxifen that you could point me towards. My wife, 33, is supposed to be taking, but feels unsure about the real benefits versus possible problems from the drug. She’s in great shape, following a paleo diet and and lifting, and would like to keep on that paht and concerned about the hormonal damage that Tamoxifen may cause. Anything you’ve heard would be helpful.

  26. Matt
    March 4, 2011 at 6:10 pm

    Forgot to include that my wife had breast cancer, a double mastectomy and they didn’t recommend chemo for her. Any other cancer preventative info would be great as well.

  27. JL
    March 4, 2011 at 11:07 pm

    Yes, VERY hard to listen to with headphones.

  28. Lauren
    March 4, 2011 at 11:14 pm

    I learned so much in that podcast!! Have Chris on again please!

  29. Fred Hahn
    March 9, 2011 at 10:58 am

    Hey Robb, Chris, Andy –

    Chris a question – you said that you found that unless you had safe starches in your diet to the tune of 100gms or so no matter how much fat and protein you eat you found you lost weight. But a sentence or two later you said that patients you treat who are on very low carb diets can’t seem to lose any weight on these diets and when you add safe starches into their diets they begin to lose weight. This is confusing. Why would you lose weight without eating safe starches and your patients the opposite?

    Good podcast. I’d love to hear one on how to treat osteoarthritis with diet.

    Cheers,
    Fred

  30. Erin
    March 9, 2011 at 7:30 pm

    I just wanted to mention that Premier Research Labs makes a really great cod liver oil that’s unrefined and cold-pressed rather than distilled. It tastes like clean fish (any CLO that has no fish taste has been very refined!)
    It’s also less expensive than Carlson’s!

    http://www.iherb.com/Premier-Research-Labs-Quantum-Rx-Cod-Liver-Oil-Liquid-8-fl-oz-237-ml/23333?utm_source=gb&utm_medium=f2

  31. Steph
    March 30, 2011 at 2:28 pm

    Hi Robb,

    I wonder if a lack of iodine can play a role in constipation as lot of paleo dieters tend to don’t eat enough sea vegetables?

    • Robb Wolf
      March 30, 2011 at 7:32 pm

      Not familiar with the iodine/constipation connection but it makes sense in part. I’ve talked about other variables in other podcasts.

  32. Eileen
    June 26, 2011 at 5:00 pm

    Wondering about Lyme Disease and Raw Milk. I know raw milk is better for you than pasteurized & homogenized milk, but I worry about the possible contamination of the Lyme germ.
    Does anyone know if keifering or making raw milk into yogurt can kill the Lyme germ?

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