Here is a great question on the compatibility of EF and CF:
SD_Mikey
Hi Robb,
Sorry, I couldn’t find a better place to post these questions. There a bit deep so I’m just hoping for any golden nuggets of wisdom.
Are Devany’s Evolutionary Fitness and Glassman’s CrossFit programming mutually exclusive because of the power law variation? People seem to be having great success doing both EF and CF (I’m a CrossFitter).
Also, do you ever incorporate EF principles into you or your client’s training?
Thanks in advance!
– Mikey
Here are a few interesting similarities between CF and EF:
1-A strong interest in economics and free markets.
2-Empiricism
3-Intensity
4-Functionality (with a few caveats)
Now the question is do I think EF and CF are mutually exclusive? No, not at all. I think they are derivatives of a base theme or perhaps a better way to describe it would be fractal: self similarity at all scales. I like thinking about training and lifestyle in terms of how much emphasis we place on Performance, Health and Longevity. I think CrossFit is focused more on performance but I’m still unclear if that is at the expense of health & longevity as compared to a more Evolutionary Fitness-esque approach. I think dropping into periods of ketosis either with or without some fasting is of benefit to health for reasons ranging from cancer prevention to decreasing the rate of cellular senescence. ketosis however will absolutely crush one’s crossfit performance…so perhaps there is a place for some periodization with more of a strength emphasis at some points of the year and more metabolic conditioning at others. I’ve written about this in the Performance Menu quite a bit and some folks like Scotty Hagnass have tinkered with it to good result so there might be something to it. It’s all pretty speculative but interesting none the less.
Coach Glassman has developed an interesting definition of fitness. At one time this involved looking at three models:
1-The 10 physical adaptations to exercise.
Cardiorespiratory endurance
Stamina
Strength
Flexibility
Speed
Power
Coordination
Accuracy
Agility
Balance
2-A statistical approach to modality competency in which one throws a potentially infinite number of activities into a hopper and draws them out. He or she who does best at this stuff is on average the “fittest”.
3-Another model is the notion that to be fit one should have a good balance in the development of all the engines that drive human activity: the ATP/CP pathway, glycolytic, and aerobic paths. We tend to focus on the use of anaerobic training to develop the aerobic pathway so we do not destroy our power production too much.
What this boils down to is competency or aptitude in various modalities, physical adaptations and metabolic engines. It’s a slick way of looking at things and it mirrors what folks like Devany and Cordain have written with regards to the generalist nature of our hunter gatherer ancestors. Recently however coach Glassman has put forward a more quantifiable method for both assessing and defining fitness. In this scenario Fitness IS work capacity across broad time and modal domains. What the hell does that mean? If we graph the power output we can generate on a huge variety of tasks we will see a power law distribution of our efforts. High power activities like the clean & jerk on the left, relatively lower power activities like 5K runs on the right and a everything under the sun mixed between.
CrossFit’s contention is the smart use of mixed modal strength & conditioning will increase ones capacity across all these domains and modalities. There are obviously limitations to this and we see a point of diminishing returns on the strength side of things. Once we get past a 6XBW on the crossfit total the ability to express high work output on things like 5K runs drops off pretty severely. Interestingly however we are seeing some top end endurance athletes get a fairly impressive strength base and this is increasing their long efforts…it will be interesting to see where that experiment finishes.
So this concept of increasing work capacity across broad time in modal domains offers a quantifiable way of measuring fitness. Perform more work in less time and you are more fit! Another model that can be helpful is the sickness-wellness-fitness continuum. In this model we can order any marker of health we like, blood pressure, bone density, mental state…we can stratify this from sick to well to fit and we can use this as a guide for assessing our efforts. If we want to add 50kg to our OL total but the gallon of ice cream we eat each night drives our triglycerides through the roof this decision is most assuredly counter to fitness and I’d wager health and longevity. Keep in mind this is not a value judgement, if you want to add that 50kg go for it, just know there may be a price to be paid for your efforts.
From both the Evolutionary Fitness and CrossFit perspective we are wired to have a fitness the is “Broad, general and inclusive”. With this in mind we can use the model of increasing work capacity across broad time and modal domains coupled with the sickness-wellness-fitness continuum to quantify fitness and balance our efforts.
This is a loooong winded way of saying I think CF and EF are quite compatible ideologies and really just show a difference in focus.
Mike also asked if I use EF technologies in my training and I definitely do. The Hierarchical sets are very time efficient and a nice way to introduce some intensity without too much volume. On the CF side of training I end to stick with couplets and triplets with an emphasis on shorter efforts. Most of our folks are lacking in strength and this is a great way to focus on fundamentals and help people get stronger. Many of the newer affiliates get enamored with chippers and hour long WOD’s…they are really missing the point of CF and blunting the potential adaptations.
Thanks for the question Mike!
I saw “modality competency” and stopped reading.
Speak English please.
Oh…ge-whiz! Sorry about that. Let me try again: Phuck obv!
Robb
Robb,
I’ve been a CF’er since December and have been reading your and Art’s posts for a couple of months now. I’ve become a proponent of the Paleo Diet and have devoured everything I can get my hands on by you, Art, Dr. Cordain and Dr. Eades. I’m a 3 year breast cancer survivor whose focus is on wellness. I want to be strong, healthy and fit and have found that those are actually different areas on which to focus. Cancer treatment (specifically chemo) royally screwed with my metabolism, my intuitive eating and sleep patterns, not to mention all of the other toxic and long-term effects. Your insight and advice is a welcome relief to me as conventional nutritional, weight training and workout advice has never really rung true with me since I started researching it many years ago. I didn’t realize it but I was doing my own hybrid version of CF and EF on my own. Everyone but my dog looked me like I was crazy every I did something that wasn’t some form of a curl.
Thanks for taking the time to explain so much in such an articulate way. I would love to pick your brain on cancer, ketosis, insulin, exercise and nutrition sometime. I’ll continue to read your posts so I’ll watch for those topics, along with all the other goodies you spew.
Sarah-
Glad you enjoy the blog. Sounds like YOU have a lot to share with folks on the art of surviving modern cancer treatment. Email me anytime: robb at norcalsc dot com
Good thoughts, Robb. I think that the ‘power’ part of the system is an oportune place to wander away from the ‘path’ and get lost looking at the trees. Remnant of the two hour gym sessions and the hour+ treadmill sessions. I’m very guilty of this!
I’ve been working out with limited gear for two months, and came up with a benchmark workout: wall ball, slam ball, and step ups, 20 reps each, 4 rounds for time. The second time I did this I knocked minutes off my time- learning the ‘game’ as it were. The third I chopped another thirty seconds off. I began losing time after that for a couple of weeks. During those weeks my workouts were long, long sessions. They satisfy something weird in my former endurance runner psyche. The next couple weeks all went to power training- heavier, faster KB/DB snatch/c&p sessions…and I cut another minute plus off of my best time. What was that that CF always says about power??? Oh yeah!
Someone dug up this ancient thread on kipping and Dave Werner nails it (of course- I’ll be back next week, Dave. Promise!)
“As far as Crossfit goes you are missing the point. What we care about above all other things is Power – that is; work divided by time or, equivalently, (Force x distance)/time.
The reason we care about Power more than strength or endurance or even speed, is that power output is what taxes the whole human system – and ellicits a neuroendocrine response.
The whole point of most of our named workouts (and most of the workouts that aren’t named), is to measure/challenge power output.
When we increase an individuals ability to output power we observe a corollary increase in absolute strength, speed, endurance and stamina. If workouts are designed to increase absolute strength, strength is the only area of improvement.
Strength is good, but we are greedy and want impovement in all areas of fitness! So, Kipping is the way to go most of the time. It is not about what feels/works the best to you, it’s about power output.
Regards
Dave Werner
Crossfit North”
Art certainly suggests the same basic premise, though he (having established a very serious base)uses fewer ‘training’ sessions than CF. I think you are correct that it’s an issue of primary focus- Art and CF’s are somewhat different.
Craig
Craig-
Great find from Dave…that is an awesome nugget. It is interesting that erring on the short but heavy/intense side is where some serious progress is made but that is also how this stuff hurts the most!
Robb
Good read Robb. I like your angle of shorter bursts of effort vs the hour long workouts. Do you have a specific optimal work/rest ratio in your “short bursts” such as 3 min of continuous effort (like a circuit of reps 5-10 with more focus on strength) with 1 min rest cycles? Is that what you are talking about? (That’s what I would go with in a group focused program)
MOD-
No faves on pacing but more en eye on increasing loading. Instead of 30 dips I like to put a little weight in there and see 15. Not always but I like that leaning.
Robb
Interesting comments Robb (seems in-line with Gregg’s Performance article this month).
My question is about Ketosis crushing CF performance. Could you explain that a little further (or tell me where to read up on it – you busy little monkey you).
-jj
Jeremy-
It’s just tough to do CF type intensity with little or no glycogen. There may be some ways around this using intermittent fasting and smart meal timing. All of the Pmenu articles covering fasting tough on this stuff.
Robb
Cool stuff!
Can you elaborate on the EF and hierarchical sets? Or where I might find it on Art DeVany?
I think the power bias stuff is pretty cool, and is sort of a push towards health and longeivity, with the lower-carb diet and all…
Ben-
Read Art’s EF essay, that covers all the angles on the hierarchical sets. I tend to agree with you on the health/longevity slant but only time will tell! Or some smart blood work…
Robb
Robb,
Great post. I’ve been a CF’er for about a year now and have followed yours and Art’s blogs for maybe 6 months. I’d always felt that EF and CF were anything but mutually exclusive and this post really said it in ways I cannot.
On IF: I have read and commented in the PMenu boards on IF and experimented on my own but am a bit interested on your take of the eat-stop-eat method, fast-5, and lean gains approach (appears similar to the average implementation of IF over at PMenu).
Derek-
as I see it you can have a compressed feeding window approach OR eat a day skip a day OR some combo of those. I really like the compressed feeding window and I think it’s just a matter of making that approach livable and supportive of ones goals. I think it’s a simple but powerful tool, especially when grafted onto a paleo/zone diet.
Robb
Great post again. I like to re-read this and share with my clients often. Permanent slot on my to do list is get here, learn, learn and learn.
Thanks Robb, always something I can grow with.
Gio
You are too kind sir! Thank you for the kind words.
Robb
Hi Robb,
I’m not sure which I enjoyed more, your reply to the first comment or your answer to my question. Thank you for your excellent answer, it is more than I expected!
As you indicate in your last paragraph, I too think one of the problems I have seen with CrossFit affiliates (and I drink the CF Kool-Aid) is that the intensity for newbies is ratcheted up too quickly when they have yet to prove mastery of basic movements. I hope this can be addressed in the CF certs because I think intensity before mastery does not serve the interest of CrossFit, the affiliate, nor the client.
One other question that was not explicitly addressed in your answer. Do you think the current CrossFit programming has a tendency towards overtraining and not enough rest? Or, is this a product of CF’s goals of increasing work capacity over broad time and modal domains?
Thanks again!
– Mikey
Mikey-
Ha! Thanks! I should just delete some of that crap but I’ve gotta have some fun somehow, might as well be at the trolls expense!
You are right about the introduction to intensity and this is why we do 12 (or more) 1-on-1 training sessions with folks to insure mechanics and slowly ratchet up the intensity. Once people are cooking along pretty well THEN we add them to a group class and let the real fun begin. We stratify things into elements, level 1 and level 2 classes to give folks something to shoot for and to keep things fairly contiguous with regards to programming. It IS possible to put fire breathers next to 70year old grand parents but it’s TOUGH. I’m not sure that this is a popular way to do all this but we like the flow and our clients love the whole program. The certs are VERY good about stressing the need for progression: mechanics, then consistency, then intensity. Coach Glassmsan has a great line something to the effect “There is no formula that trumps common sense…” Some people get the whole progression thing better than others and I think it becomes a bit market driven: If you fuck people up they will not come back and your gym will be empty!
Now as to the CF programming: It is set up such that consistent 100% efforts will absolutely destroy someone…anyone. You must modify things, you must take a half or a quarter dose occasionally or you will just blow up. Some argue that this must be programmed in but it makes more sense to me to make that a decentralized affair and let individuals make those modifications. There were some belly-achers on the message board that were “demanding” modifications for every movement and scaled WODS yet thousands of people manage to figure this out on their own. I think there is a thread of entitlement running through some of the community. They have been given a huge amount yet demand more! Funny stuff. This is just my opinion but I do think running at the top of the CF elite requires a level of training that is pushing the boundaries of human capacity…just like the elite level of all sports. Might that be at odds with health and longevity? Sure, but a milk-toast (damn dirty toast!) existence is sometimes not worth living.
Thank you again for the great questions!
Robb
Kind of funny that humans are the only animals that can run upright for long distances but evolutionary fitness discourages running long distances.
“Champ”-
Humans are also the only organism that can drive a finger so far up our nose that we can scratch our brain…oddly Evolutionary fitness is mute on this topic.
In simple terms training in an interval fashion allows one to have both crushing levels of brief maximal power production but we can also run the long runs when we need to. The inverse is not the case and that is the point that is central to CrossFit and Evolutionary Fitness. Brian Mackenzie of CrossFit Newport Beach who runs 100 mile races shows that the interval method to training provides huge benefit both to the long efforts and to max strength & power. Brian has a 4.9x BW CrossFit total. At 180lbs he could rip the arms off most endurance athletes and beat them to death with their own appendages!
Bad Champ, no cookie.
Robb
Great post!
A few areas that I think are left to be explored. Art does NOT seem to advocate the level of intensity most CF’rs strive for. Where is the balance between getting the benefits of intensity without the cortisol release?
You gave one example of your emphasis on power (15 weighted versus 30 unwaited dips). Do you have any other good examples? I am always torn on whether to do a nice slow heavy 5×5 set of squats and shoulder press or whether to do a 21-15-9 of 225lb squats and push-press or weighted dips or clapping push-ups for that matter. I worry that I will never push up my CFT without the 5×5, 7×3, 10×1 style training.
Your insights are always appreciated.
Aaron
PS-We were having a discussion on the CF board about whether 3-1 was too much exercise. The consensus seemed to be it was good for performance and less than ideal for health/longevity. Glad to see out conclusions were is good company.
Aaron-
I think that sickness-wellness-fitness spectrum is a perfect place to look for insight to guide our training. If you are training at a level that cortisol is increasing, your sleep is disturbed and you want to die you are doing too damn much! Now I MIGHT bump an athlete into this land of over reaching with the intent of dialing back intensity and volume to peak for an event. This is used in every sport I can think of so no reason this should not apply to crossfit. Now as to the 3-1 discussion the same rules apply: are you moving forward or backward?If you are going backwards you might be doing too much, your diet might be bad or your sleep might be inadequate…or some terrible combo of all those. BUT! This is not the fault of the 3-1 programming. Larry Lindeman cuts every 3rd day in half, every 3rd WEEK in half and I think takes every 9th week OFF. That is brilliant and hard as hell for all of us to do. I find myself in this conundrum ALL the time. I want to be as tough as OPT, I want to lift weights like Josh Everett…and I want a training schedule that does not lay me out flat! Those guys train fucking HARD, are disciplined and are willing to sacrifice. I think folks want a way to “do 3-1”, look good doing it (post good times) but without the work and sacrifice. It just doesn’t work that way. This is just my feeling on this but i think it’s pretty accurate. Some of this sniffs like the difference between boxing, wrestling and jits and fantasy martial arts. it’s great to look good hitting focus mitts and doing kata but can you actually FIGHT. I might be getting off topic so I’ll close thing down there!
Robb,
You say, “I think dropping into periods of ketosis either with or without some fasting is of benefit to health for reasons ranging from cancer prevention to decreasing the rate of cellular senescence. ketosis however will absolutely crush one’s crossfit performance…so perhaps there is a place for some periodization with more of a strength emphasis at some points of the year and more metabolic conditioning at others.”
If you are looking at the issue from the point of view of health/longevity rather than xfit performance, it isn’t clear to me why a drop off in xfit performance (e.g., Fran times) implies that one ought not to perform metcon during ketosis. Is there some reason for thinking that performing metcon workouts during periods of ketosis have negative health impacts? From an evolutionary perspective (a *real* evolutionary perspective, not Devaney’s Kiplingesque evolutionary perspective) that seems unlikely. After all, it seems unlikely the periods of fasting/ketosis in HG cultures would track periods of diminished metcon demands. Actually, the opposite seems likely.
Marc-
What I’m saying is one’s top-end CF performance will suffer while in ketosis. Fran, one might pull off “ok” given hepatic glycogen repletion but something like the filthy 50, is going to be damn tough to do. Doable but really, really hard. My thought is during these lower carb periods simply to make really high intensity WOD’s quite short, do ample strength work and then perhaps long walks, sled work or rucking for some rounding out in the met-con. We can do a limited amount of very high intensity work while in ketosis ( cleans, DL’s etc. ) and pretty much limitless aerobic work but glycolytic intensity requires…glycogen! If we have none or little of that fuel things will be REALLY tough.
Robb
Good post Robb – I’ve been thinking about this a bit myself recently. i think I am ketogenic most of the time by preference and I am happy with my performance most of the time.
Chris-
What does a typical day look like with regards to food and what have you been doing for training?
Robb
Hi Robb,
First off, thanks for this blog. I came across it a few weeks ago and I enjoy it very much.
I would like to comment on the 3/1 work/rest specification and some reflections on my experience. I have been doing CF since May 07, following the 3/1 schedule with the exception of a 3 day rest in early September and a 2 day rest in mid February. Those periods were due to travel/circumstance, not feeling trashed. The other exception is for 9 weeks starting in late November I supplemented 5X5 program on the first of each 3 day triplet.
I have been seeing improvements nearly every WOD. Sure, there are some days that aren’t, but really most are either a PB or very nearly so. That said, I do have to modify at times. I try to do pretty much as Rx’d, but for instance today I will do 5X towel pu per prescribed rope climb (CF Main WOD). I have defaulted to thinking, if I feel run down and performance suffers, then I will do a 50% week or off week. Is this approach the best?
I know much of the consistent improvement may be due to my CF infancy. So, I guess the point I was trying to get at is whether the “wait and see” approach is right for possible rest periods with regard to long term improvement and/or health. It certainly fits my personal mindset, but I am curious if you have thoughts you are willing to share. Sorry for the long comment!
Thanks again for the information you provide.
Joel B.
Joel-
Thank you for the kind words! Your experience validates what I’ve seen over the past 6 years. Folks have a 3-5 year period of nearly continuous improvement (particularly if food is dialed in) where results come fast & easy. It sounds like you have a good intuitive sense of how to dial things back and are not neurotic about your training (unfortunately I’m in the neurotic camp). I think what you are doing is perfect and is evidenced by the fact you are moving forward AND you are not beat to death all the time. I’ve noticed that if I’m rested, recovered…I can really tear it up. if I’m dragging ass it’s tough to do much of anything. That planned time off/decreased training (unloading) is brilliant and is also tough to do for most people. Keep it up, you are more dialed in than you might think.
Robb
Great post, really interesting and informative. I’m very intrigued by the periodization/ketosis idea as I was thinking about doing an Olympic lifting phase after the Games in July. Perhaps I could play with IF or other beneficial eating patterns for the sake of longevity!
Geoff-
I think it’s an interesting way to shift emphasis and constantly work on weaknesses. The possibility that we may have a health/longevity up-tick is a nice bonus as well.
Robb
Hi Robb,
Thanks for the reply. I just want to be clear about the upshot of my post since I used a poor example (Fran) that might have caused some confusion.
The upshot was this. I agree that glycolytic intensive workout will be hampered during periods of ketosis; performance will drop. But I wasn’t clear about the inference from this observation to the conclusion that one should therefore reduce such work outs during periods of ketosis. What I was hoping to tease out was, more generally, a question about the presumed correlation between performance and health/longetivity benefits. Your reasoning seems to require the implicit premise that drops in performance track health/longevity benefits. But it seems possible to me that in many cases drops in performance will be inversely correlated w/health benefits (i.e., even though performance is dropping off the health benefits are going up). This, in effect, is just the converse of a principle you suggest might be correct above, namely, that increased performance might be negatively correlated w/ health benefits.
Sorry if this is a boneheaded question and there is something obvious I am missing. But it goes to the heart of the issue of exercising for perfomance vs. exercising for health.
Marc-
I think it’s a fascinating topic and it possibly offers some predictive framework for managing our training. This line is interesting to me: Increased work capacity across broad time & modal domains. In some ways this sounds almost like an operational definition of life. When work capacity reaches zero…we’re dead! this model can guide our training in that anything that decreases our work capacity across broad time & modal domains MIGHT be at odds with health & longevity. Too many 30 min long all out Crossfit WOD’s might not be the best thing for a person…but that’s part of why the variability is built into the programming.
The ketosis scenario might facilitate health & longevity by changing gene expression, decreased glycolytic damage and the removal of lipofuscion and other cellular debris. it also allows us to hammer the strength/power element of our work capacity while maintaining our aerobic base. Glycolysis takes a bit of a holiday but not to worry, we will ramp that back up soon enough. this may just be a bunch of theoretical BS but I think there might be something to it.
Robb
Robb,
Meant to ask this yesterday also: For all of us Robb Wolf wannabes out there, what would be your take on ascending the ladder? I am considering going back to college (I already have a degree, but it’s not of much use to a Nutrition/S&C geek), but am not sure whether or not pursuing some sort of exercise science or nutrition degree is necessary/worth it.
Derek-
I can not think of any program better than getting in and coaching. Hit a Burgner/Everett Olifting cert, go hang with Rip for a weekend. Get some gymnastics basics and how to progress folks through them. If you want to improve your anatomy & physiology (a great idea) get a computer based study guide or maybe hit a community college class. Formal education has a heavy opportunity cost with virtually no benefit from interning with successful coaches and self study. Since you have a degree you can study up and get a CSCS for your liability insurance and have all the certified-dick-swagger you will ever need!
Robb
Robb,
Excellent write up and possibly new version of “what is crossfit”. Great comparisons to DeVany’s EF. I did feel “safe” though about the gallon of ice cream reference, as Ben&Jerry’s comes in pints!
thanks steve!
Robb
Diet – IF once or twice a week for 24 hours 1pm to 1pm or so. Breakfast e.g eggs, scrambled in butter with spinach, lunch salad with tuna/salmon, olives olive oil, dinner: grilled lamb steak plus sauteed asparagus. Junk food: double cream and berries.
training – about 2 or 3 times a week depending on work and the rest of my life. Lots of walking. interval session – e.g. sprints or kettlebell snatches for tabata intervals or C2 rowing sprints; met con type session e.g. 3 min run, 20 air squats x 5; power / strength session – hierarchical set type workout with squats, pushups/med ball throws, db rowing etc
fairly random stuff, trying to stay healthy and above all enjoy what I am doing.
I’ve done all those type of sessions even while fasted for 24 hours and felt OK. I don’t know, maybe there would be some performance benefit from more carbs some days, but healthy wise I don’t know if it is worth it.
Chris-
GREAT stuff, thanks for sharing that. I’ve found that I can pull off some fasted training or lower carb training more successfully if I’ve had adequate rest. Does not happen often but the difference is very noticeable. Training based on the FUN! That is a damn novel idea!
Robb
Theoretical BS gets me a paycheck. 🙂
Brad-
I should have never left biotech!
Robb
Robb,
Any suggestions on additional reading I can find on the topic of performance output when comparing low carb v. moderate carb? I’m running fairly lean and curious if I may be leaving something on the table during workouts without enough fuel.
Typical day…Pre-workout TBsp natural pnut butter and 1/2 apple. Bfst: low carb protien shake and 3 egg scramble with left over meat and veggies Lunch: Salmon Salad Dinner: Steak and veggies Snacks: nuts, apples, yogurt.
I’m fairly new to this so I may be way off course but I want to fuel and produce in the most effective ways. I’m signing up for the PMenu today as well. Thanks, RP
RP-
I think this is the most thorough analysis of ketosis and performance I’ve seen:http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2
My take away from that piece is during ketosis you can have good strength, you can have good aerobic output but that intermediate power stuff which typifies crossfit is severely hampered. One just needs to play with the macros and see how it affects things!
Robb
I thought this post from Lyle McDonald was interesting regarding carb intake:
http://tinyurl.com/3y27fr
he has some good relevant points
Great stuff. I’d love to see that fleshed out some more.
Robb
Just wanted to say that I find it refreshing that you would admit to the possibility that all out, hard core crossfit stuff _might_ have a negative affect on longevity. I came upon Crossfit after making life style changes based on the philosophies of Devany and Mark Sisson, which conditioned me to believe that six days of hard training was unneccesary, and possilby even harmful. But I’ll agree it depends on what your motivation is for doing the training in the first place.
BTw, you might be hearing from my boss concerning my lack of productivity while going through your archives. 🙂 Great stuff!!
Thanks for the kind words Dave! All this stuff is pretty speculative but i think it’s important again to point out that the 3-1 needs to be “your” 3-1. What are your goals? How beat up are you from the past days and weeks efforts? I think modifying things in this way makes it totally congruent with a health/longevity bias. Trying to tackle the WOD 100% day in, day out is, for most a recipe for disaaster.
Robb
Thanks for the reply Robb. I’ve been kicking around ideas for a while and figure I’ll probably go the route of (hopefully) getting to work with some awesome coaches for at least a few days at a time, studying up on my A&P and getting that C.S.C.S.
Since I life in the Bay Area it’s a practical gold mine of opportunities.
Thanks again.
-Derek
Derek-
Sounds like a slam dunk! Here are folks you MUST train with from the bay area: Kelly Starrett, Adrian Bozman, Mike Minium, Shira Yaziv, jim schmitz, Freddy Comacho…amazing talent within an hour or two drive. Get on it!
Robb
How much Ya Bench?
Rut-
Last I tried I put up 265 at 165lbs. We don’t even have a bench in the gym anymore so I need to run to a globo gym to check now!
Robb
Thanks, Robb. Trust me – as a 56 year old trying to borrow from Crossfit and the Gym Jones guys, I have acquired enough credits for an advanced degree in “scaling.” 🙂
Thanks for the pointers and the list of coaches to get in touch with. I had met Adrian Bozman at a Cert. at CFHQ a month ago and figured once my ankle was fully recovered I’d have to workout with their crew. Looks like I’ll have to contact them and start there.
Thanks again Robb.
Robb,
What is your opinion on training to failure? Is it necessary for muscle growth?
Matt!
Training to failure is certainly a good method, but not the only one. Heavy weight with multiple sets, lower weight with moderate reps moved very quickly (also many sets) all contribute enough muscle breakdown to stimulate growth. Keep in mind, the methods that help the beginner may not be the methods that help the more advanced individual. Another key ingredient is simply putting more weight on the bar. Progressive overload is very powerful.
Robb
Hi Robb- This is my first comment here but I really enjoy your site and I’m always interested in your take on things. Thanks for providing such a great resource!
So it’s funny because I was just thinking about this same thing- the EF vs CF discrepancies and wondering about your opinion, and here it was in the latest posting!
Your points about EF and CF not being mutually exclusive and having lots in common make a lot of sense and I agree. I guess the major thing that still bugs me is the direct contradiction in philosophy/methodology from Crossfit in what I quote from Art Devany below. I hear the ‘performance’ vs. ‘health/longevity’ perspective- BUT at the same time I doubt that Art Devany would agree that his fitness program is not geared toward performance! And for that matter, if Coach Glassman would agree that performing the WODs as rx’d is detrimental to one’s health/longevity.
I found this in the archives at Art’s site in a longer response about fatigue/injury- but I selected these points he made because they most strongly fly in the face of the crossfit gestalt:
“3. Keep the volume down. Fatigue is a primary cause of injury. Forcing a depleted muscle through another rep is just asking for trouble. There are no phosphates left in the muscle; this is a protection measure to avoid injury. Listen to the message. If, over a period of days or weeks, you find your blood pressure drifting upward you are way over doing it. Each work out should feel good and lower your blood pressure, with a slight elevation of your pulse during the post-work out period.
4. Don’t count repetitions. Go for the burn and then stop. Your core body temperature should rise also. Both are signals of good hormone drives. It is your hormones that you are altering in the workout.
5. You want to push hard enough to ascend the fiber hierarchy, but going beyond that is of small value. That is, trigger all the fibers from ST to FTa to FTb/z. Then stop and move on to the next exercise. High volume training causes a convergence of muscle fibers composition: ST moves toward FTa and FTb/z moves toward FTa. So, you become an FTa sort of person. Pretty good, but not good enough for me. I go after FTb/z and that requires less volume.”
I’ve been around CF long enough to know that CF’ers are all about training to failure regularly and pushing through difficult reps (even when form is breaking down a bit or failure is present on consecutive reps) is part of nearly every WOD.
Sorry for the long post- but this difference between EF and CF is more than just a small divergence in focus to me. It is two significantly different philosophies of how to train most effectively. I don’t know if there is an answer to this but I was wondering if you could elaborate on your opinion about what Art’s saying above versus the CF way of doing things.
Thanks Robb!
JP-
Crossfit teaches some very effective work/rest management. How much does one need to break up a given set or workout to finish the given task or complete as many rounds as possible. Undue fatigue or form breakdown is both counter productive and undesirable. In our facility we hammer folks on form breakdown that deviates into the realm in which on may be injured. That said, intensity…how much work one produces is vitally tied to progress and adaptation. Just exploding and going willy-nilly through a WOD is nto a good strategy. Work/rest management is a good strategy and it insures safety (to a degree).
I think Art’s description of failure is quite different than what one must to to successfully navigate something like a Fran or Helen or really ANY of the WODS. Art’s description is more along the lines of bodybuilding forced reps…certainly not the woute to optimized work output!
Robb
Sir i didnee know you had a w/e.
Very nicely.
Sent you an email today to the norcal address.
If you still use that account and you have a mo can you point me in the direction of sveltness pleasum ?
Thanks man.
In Ca, Rancho Mirage , presently.
Weather and surround gorg. but the folks..vaccuous.
Sinc.
Fat Simon
Robb,
Absolutely great post.That’s exactly what
I try to do with each workout—combine the
functional training of crossfit with Art’s
hierarchal sets.The combination is good for
intensity and brevity.
Thanks, Mark
Hi Robb, I’m just listening to an interview you did on Crossfit Old Town about what you’d do with an athlete who’s life depended on their improving their fitness in record time. In it you mention people who’ve cleaned their diets right up having surprisingly severe immune reactions to the reintroduction of refined sugars.
I’ve just had an interesting experience with that exact thing this Easter. Although I’ve managed to dodge most of the chocolate saturation this year I caved and munched down a chocolate bunny yesterday and within seconds – literally while I was still munching – I felt hot and prickly, like you do when you’re just getting the flu. Really interesting response, and a good cue to stay on track.
Steve-
I actually see wheat (or more specifically gluten contain items) being more problematic than sugary items like chocolate but cleaning up the diet can really highlight what that stuff does to us. For folks facing deployment eating a “too clean” diet may not be a good thing to do.
Robb
Thanks for the reply Robb- that makes a lot of sense. I think sometimes it’s just a difference in the way we use terms like ‘failure’ or ‘fatigue’ and what they mean in the context of CF/EF vs. traditional bodybuilding.
BTW- I’ve incorporated some of Art’s ‘hierarchical sets’ into my workout schedule and man they are not by any means easier or less fatiguing! They feel pretty much like Crossfit to me.
Robb,
I have been an avid CF’er since last fall, but hadn’t read any EF info until you posted this comparison. As I dug through DeVany’s stuff I found an audio interview with Charles Staley in which DeVany says that eating after exercising stops the body from responding to the exercise. This threw me for a loop since my current regimen is to wake before my two toddlers do, follow the crossfit.com WOD, and then have breakfast.
Although I see crossfit.com pushing paleo or paleo/zone, I don’t see any info on timing of food relative to exercise. Do you have any thoughts on food-to-exercise timing?
As always, thank you very much for the great blog!
Will-
This (in my mind) is just a difference in priority. If one really wants to rock CF you will want to eat post workout, and possibly shift up to 50% of your carb blocks post workout. I’ve written a bunch about this in past PM articles and i think in this blog…check around a bit. What Art is talking about is maximizing hGH release and upregulating some stress adaptive genes that come into play when we have a brief fast after training. Different approaches fo different goals. Honestly I would do what makes your schedule work the best. If you are generally paleo/zone and shift some carbs post workout you are pretty damn dialed.
Robb