Grab a snack and some espresso, this may take a while.
Black Box Summit
Several months ago I was contacted, along with Michael “Rutman” Rutherford, James “OPT” Ftizgerald and the non-pseudonym fitness luminaries, Nicki Violetti plus Greg and Aimee Everett (formerly Anaya) to participate in The Black Box Summit: For Affiliates By Affiliates. The purpose of this summit was to provide a forum for CrossFit affiliates and trainers to learn a variety of best practices in business, training and related topics, from the most respected and successful people in the CrossFit Community. The stratospheric growth of CrossFit has created equal parts challenge and opportunity. The Summit’s purpose was to begin a trend of professionalism and education that would, in theory, address the needs of the CrossFit community from every conceivable angle.
Quality Control & The brand of CrossFit
Jeremy Theil, CrossFit Games competitor and founder of the successful affiliate, CrossFit Central, opened the day and focused on the issues of quality control in CF and what role CrossFit HQ would play in this process. In short CF HQ will play “no” role in the quality control of affiliates. The most public explanation of this position is an open market “cream rises to the top” philosophy, however the legal/business anchor for this position is that any attempts on HQ’s part to police or institute best practices would put the organization into a franchise scenario. These are some interesting topics, which will need some exploration later, but this should suffice for now simply to paint a picture of the opening of the Summit. Jeremy concluded the opening session with a brief analysis of the controversial GreySkull blog post which created quite a stir several months ago. Jeremy made the point that if you love the community you would stay in and fight for it. A sentiment shared by many of the commentators to the Greyskull thread. This would however be prophetic for me, as my love for the community and desire to see it improve would lead to my sacking in a little over 48 hrs.
Better Business Practices
The first section of the business practices was fantastic. Attendees saw several different ways of structuring a business with the Examples coming from CrossFit Central, Optimum Performance Training (OPT) and NorCal Strength & Conditioning/CrossFit NorCal. Nicki spoke on several topics in this early session but one was on branding. She made the argument that one of the best ways to distinguish oneself as an affiliate was with a distinctive name + superior training, business systems and culture. The CrossFit community has seen monumental growth. In many cities there are 4-8 affiliates within literally eyesight of one another. Disparities in training, business systems and culture have raised significant anxieties for affiliate owners. What if all the prospective clients in an area are “turned off” to CrossFit by poor training or injury? What if something happened in a gym with a similar name and you are confused with that affiliate? CrossFit HQ’s stance on this topic has been an analogy of Starbuck’s and the fact there are “multiple Starbucks on some city corners”. Indeed there are, but this is a ridiculous comparison. Starbucks is a centrally owned business with solid, consistent business practices. CrossFit affiliates are unregulated and highly variable from location to location. Anxiety about the quality of a neighbor that essentially SHARES your name is valid on the part of the affiliate owner. The HQ position: “quality will win out” provides remarkably little solace for those affiliates who have neighbors who have driven down prices and possibly alienated clients with poor training. Perhaps someone should inform HQ that Starbucks has seen massive cutbacks? Would HQ be friendly to competitive strength & conditioning entities providing certifications? Whatever the case, Nicki couched all of this in terms that were positive and helpful: Pick a name that is unique. Distinguish yourself by quality actions such as training and business systems. This suggestion resonated with many of the attendees as evidenced by the questions Nicki received throughout the weekend. At least one attendee did not appreciate the suggestion, Director of Training, Dave Castro. I’d soon get an earful of what Dave thought about Nicki’s recommendation to co-brand oneself. Initially, I could not make sense of Dave’s animosity until I thought things through: If you have two names you not only distinguish yourself from your neighbors who may or may not have good business practices, you liberate yourself from the control of HQ. You have little recourse if you are dissatisfied with the parent organization when your only name is “CrossFit Anytown” and your only url is www.crossfitanytown.com.
Warming up…
Day 2 progressed with excellent content that appeared to both inspire and inform the audience. Mostly. In addition to Dave Castro, HQ sent Media Czar Tony Budding and Media Lackey, Russell Berger. Russell, you might recall penned the “balanced” review of the Gym Jones seminar. Greg Glassman claims Mark Twight stole his technology and has generally whined about this situation for years. My position has been and continues to be: If Twight stole from you, SUE HIM. It seems an airtight case, so why the lack of action? Anyway, Russell asked many questions throughout the weekend, always after either Tony (on day 1) or Dave (on days 2 & 3) leaned over and whispered in his ear. Russell, I believe DOES own an affiliate (experience neither Dave nor Tony have) but the emissaries from HQ are interesting:
- None have extensive training experience.
- None have ANY strength and conditioning education outside CrossFit and are largely incapable of articulating any of the nuanced methodology in strength and conditioning.
- None have a background in anatomy, physiology or exercise science. Greg Glassman never had a formal education in this material but has a formidable self taught knowledge. For the most part, the HQ staff does not reflect this knowledge base, and this in not only a “fitness” company but a “fitness juggernaut”.
I gave my talk on effective strategies for implementing nutrition in a gym. I detailed the systems such as integration with On Ramps and how to customize your approach for divergent populations such as fat loss vs. performance. My main focus for the talk was a food quality approach using “Paleo” concepts. I shared some case histories and then opened the floor for questions. Russell asked “when would I introduce the Zone in my practice?” and I said I tend not to. We have produced top tier athletes without the hassle of weighing and measuring. This did not satisfy him and he probed for how I would know what ratio athletes need for their best running and would it not be better to emulate a Zone approach. I gave him 2 concrete examples of top tier athletes who WERE eating the Zone, switched to un-weighed, unmeasured Paleo (a significant shift in food quality which decreases inflammation in many ways) who IMPROVED performance significantly by dropping the Zone. I said IF an athlete ceases to make progress I will weigh and measure food to see where to go next, but if a simple, intuitive approach is working, why mess with it? Russell and Dave are visibly agitated by this point. Russell was marshalling for another salvo when James Fitzgerald (the only other person in attendance besides myself who has logged thousands of hours working with people on their food) offered support for my position. Dutch Lowy (who was facilitating the questions) said we were out of time. Dave Castro stood up and loudly said: “That was Robb Wolf’s lecture on why the Zone Sucks”. Dave then walked outside and began texting on his phone.
After my talk at the Summit Dave Castro eventually grabbed me and said “You need to calm down on the Zone bashing”. I told him I was NOT bashing the Zone but you CANNOT weigh and measure shit food and get the same results.
Things Get Jerry Springer
After lunch, Greg Everett was up and he would tackle the topic of why the Olympic lifts are valuable for the CrossFit athlete. Greg’s presentation was fantastic. Clear, concise and it opened with an example of a top level CrossFitter improving her performance dramatically with just a few weeks of instruction in the O-lifts. Greg had numerous photos in his power point presentation, one was of Annie Sakamoto doing a barbell clean. This was a photo HQ had used on crossfit.com as an example of “good” form and Greg pointed out the shortcomings of the technique displayed in the photo. A bit later Greg showed a photo of Nicole Carroll doing a medball clean with a form error Greg would later explore in depth. When this photo came up, Greg said “I’m not going to get into this right now” Dave Castro yelled out “No, GET INTO IT!”
Greg thought this was Michael Rutherford and said “Not now sweetie”. Either way Dave thought he had been “Disrespected” and yelled out, in the middle of a lecture, attended by over 70 people from around the world, at an event that was NOT HQ sponsored or endorsed “FUCK YOU, YOU FAT FUCK!” This is all on film. If it sees the light of day you will be able to see the whole thing yourselves, and from two different camera angles.
Greg continues his lecture remarkably unfazed while Castro seethes and wiggles, texting on his phone. When Greg’s talk finishes Dave rushes forward and starts yelling at Greg. Dutch is trying to calm Dave down because Dave Castro, Director of Training for CrossFit HQ is yelling at one of the best and brightest coaches in the community because Greg said CrossFitters will benefit from technical proficiency in the O-lifts. Having a cooler head than Dave, and actually giving a shit about the attendees experience, Greg asks Dave to go outside so they can talk.
At this point I’m shocked but reticent to get much more involved. I did not want my presence to provoke matters further and frankly, I did not, in my wildest imaginings, think Dave Castro, Director of Training for CrossFit HQ, the fitness juggernaut built on Empiricism and facts and OPEN SOURCE CONCEPTS, would conduct himself as he was doing. I could see Dave yelling at Greg outside. Dutch Lowy and Michael Rutherford were trying to quiet things down. Mind you, this is in the middle of a SEMINAR with 70+ people in attendance. I could see Greg’s head getting redder and redder so I went outside and Dutch is pushing a motormouthed Castro away from Greg. Greg is repeating “ I have noting to say to you Dave” while Dave is obviously working to provoke Greg. Every time Michael Rutherford or Dutch would get between, Dave would push his way around, all the while yelling a stream of obscenities at Greg. Dave was saying things like “you just hate HQ, you are just waiting for this thing to fail so you can swoop in and benefit. You are a parasite on the community…you should de-affiliate, we should de-affiliate you!!” I get between Dave and Greg and said “HQ cannot hear an ounce of criticism, you are above reproach and it is ruining the organization.” He said I was no better than Greg.
I told him to take my high-paying CrossFit nutrition gig and stick it up his ass.
At this Dave becomes dead quite and just looks back and forth at Greg and I. Then he starts repeating “you guys are done…you guys are done, you drew your line, you are done…” Imagine an all-powerful despotic leader of an authoritarian regime ranting over two subjects he is about to execute. That’s the flavor of this professional exchange.
Dutch Lowy finally tells Dave he needs to leave. That the cops would be called if need be. Jeremy is trying to keep things as mellow as possible but the whole of the 70 people are taking in the spectacle of the Director of Training trying to provoke a fight with Greg Everett over an OLYMPIC WEIGHTLIFTING LECTURE. I have received 2 emails from people who said they filmed parts of the outside yelling match. I’ll post that video when I get it.
As an aside, imagine a similar scenario playing out at a Level 1 CrossFit cert. What could so enrage an attendee that the individual would rush the stage and start spewing threats and obscenities like Dave did? Who knows, but the individual would obviously need to be very insecure with the material that was presented to react this way.
Day 3
Dave would not make eye contact with me all day on Sunday. The seminars were amazing, particularly some of OPT’s material. Inspiring and some very high order thinking. All of the presenters were brought up front for a Q&A. This went pretty well till Russell Berger asked “If the Main site WOD would optimally prepare an athlete for the Crossfit games. He gave some numbers which had the appearance of being vague, but it was pretty obvious he had a specific person and situation in mind. Of the panel, NOT ONE PERSON thought the crossfit.com WOD would get a person to optimal strength/conditioning levels the fastest. The weekend had been comprised of discussions of the Max Effort Black Box which was developed by Michael Rutherford. The reason he developed it was because crossfit.com was inadequate to the task of producing top tier strength. I’M SURE I will look like a huge A-hole when Russel’s CFJ piece is finished.
At about 8pm Sunday night I received a phone call from Eric Black, one of the understaffed members of CrossFit Legal. Black informed me that Greg Glassman decided I would no longer be doing the CrossFit nutrition certs and that someone else would fill the coaching for the several sold out certs on the books. I asked Eric if HQ had an “official” position on the topic. He said he did not know anything else. I said “You do know I will make a public statement about this. I have hundreds of people signed up for and looking to sign up for a cert in which I am the instructor. I will post this publicly. Attendees need to know it will not be me instructing the course. Are you prepared for this and are you sure you want to go through with it?” To this black said he was not 100% sure the situation was final…that there might be some discussion, that I should consider if I had a message for Glassman. I said I was stunned they did not have a written, formal reason for dismissing me, that it was appallingly unprofessional that Glassman, whom I’ve known for nearly 10 years now, did not have the Stones to do this himself. And That I was DONE. I was not interested in a kiss-and make up session.
I shot an email to CrossFit Legal and the Glassman’s that I wanted a written explanation of why I was being replaced within 24 hrs.
Monday
John Welbourn called me and said Dave Castro wanted to know if John was going to leave. If he was going to continue programming CrossFit Football. John said he would, for he foreseeable future. John said to Dave: “I was not there but I hear you did some remarkably unprofessional things.” To this Dave Castro, Director of Training for CrossFit HQ said “ Greg Everett was running down CrossFit and he was running down Mark Rippetoe. I was not going to let Greg Destroy Rips legacy….”
A few things are funny about this, beyond the fact it’s a complete lie intended to manipulate Welbourn. The first is that Dave Castro HATES Mark Rippetoe. He sent an email to Rip one time that was, the most unprofessional thing I’ve seen…up to that date. THAT will make some interesting reading at some point. The other funny thing is that Greg said of the squat in his lecture “there is a high bar squat and a low bar squat. We just call it “The Squat”. Yes Dave, this is certainly grounds for your behavior.
Thoughts and What Next?
Generally, I’m just shocked the emissary from HQ conducted himself in this way. Dave acts with an impunity that is frightening in it’s severity.
In the phone call Eric Black said HQ had a replacement for my upcoming nutrition certs. I want attendees to know it will NOT be me there. I do not want people rolling into the cert expecting to see me.
As of this writing I have not received any communication from HQ other than a voicemail from Glassman saying “Robbie! I hear you started another fire..call me kid!” Classic lack of professionalism on HQ’s part and Glassman’s preferred method for dealing with unsavory situations: Make it look like it was not his decision.
I’m REALLY interested to see the HQ response to this if any. they NEVER take responsibility for actions. We will see some kind of 90* take on this. My guess is that I’m using this as a media stunt.
I’ll continue to serve the community I’ve been a part of for so long via my blog. I’m going to take this time and finish my book. On my writing breaks I will ponder the same thing on most CrossFitters minds: Where IS my RRG money?
I’ll be surprised if Robb allows this post to stay, but I just want to say that Robb’s view of what happened is quite different from mine. I can assure you all that Robb’s being fired from representing CrossFit HQ has been a long time coming. What happened this weekend was simply the final straw. And, it has absolutely nothing to do holding and expressing “contrary” opinions.
Free and open exchange Tony. That YOUR interpretation of the events differs from mine is not the least bit surprising, really it can be no other way. And Tony, if this has been a “long time coming” it is even more shocking you guys could not have something in writing and anything that indicates something like incompetence. No tony, this was 100% about a dissident voice speaking out.
Nice return on the serve BTW, the ball was barely over the net!
Oh yea-Great way to avoid Dave’s behavior. If my actions were sufficient to get me fired they must have been amazingly egregious considering what Dave did and the fact he most assuredly will NOT be fired. VERY professional.
Sorry Tony, thought of something else: Anything YOU post on here will both be approved and will remain. This is in stark contrast to the numerous posts of mine you have deleted from the CrossFit Journal site. Considering your background in education and your current penchant for censorship is an interesting thought exercise for me.
Wow. Sorry to hear things went sour. Its not really all that surprising when you look at the responses to the Greyskull Barbell Club post, which wasn’t ever meant to be an argument to get people to leave in the first place…
Either way, your contributions are appreciated. Although, selfish as it may be, I’m glad that I was able to get to the Nutrition Cert while it was still yours.
Robb – This really SUCKS! I will definitely NOT be getting the cert if you aren’t doing it and I will make sure that no one else I know does either! I wasn’t there and don’t know what happened for sure – but I know one thing, you know your $h!t, and if the folks at HQ know what’s good for them you will be back on staff by the end of the day! I have bachelors and masters degrees in nutrition and am a registered dietitian, but I consider you the expert – your blogs and info have taught me more than six years of school did. I’m behind you 110%!
Thanks Amy-
I had my window of opportunity to get back in but I absolutely CANNOT. Mat gave his resignation…anyone who believes in openness and free speech is not very happy with the organization right now. I will be back on the road after the book is finished. I really appreciate the help and friendship…all I want to do is help people. I do without the drama and the megalomania.
I have to totally agree with Amy, I am in my PhD in muscle/exercise physiology and have been a personal trainer and weightlifting coach for a few years. I can not believe that individuals with absolutely zero background education in nutrition or biology would even attempt to argue … Not to mention individuals with the education background all respect and aknowledge your information as not even correct, but simply holistic. You don’t take biases, you examine the evidence and display the results, nothing more or less. And Castro trying to say he has an open mind, well then why hate on paleo? He just wines and I’m guessing he only got his job from being buddies or someone’s son as it’s clear he does not demonstrate a fit individual in any interpretation of the word.
Keep fighting the good fight Robb, I look forward to hopefully meeting you someday!
Thanks Ryan, it’s a complex story.
Wow Robb this is the first I’ve ever seen or heard anything you’ve said but hang in there buddy because it sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders. -Dave (not Castro 😂)
I’m sorry to hear that you have had to suffer through all this drama, Robb. Do you intend to continue doing seminars? I missed you l last time you were her in the Portland, Oregon area and I’d be interested in having you back up in the future.
I’m sure Robb Wolf, the brand, will prosper. I take nutrition quite a bit farther than most affiliates and I often hear your name outside the CrossFit community. I’d say, “good luck to you” but for me, you’re not going anywhere.
Jason-
Really appreciate that. I will be back on the road once the book is done. I have been making some good headway on that and just want to wrap that thing up. This is actually all an amazing relief.
Post this one Robb, the first had some grammar errors
As a participant of Robb’s first official nutrition cert, I can only say that this is a travesty.
The most egregious part of this whole thing is that the CEO of the company/ and or someone with the proper level of authority did not call Robb to tell him he was fired shows a company that is unstable and has disjointed management. Company’s like that don’t survive very long. On top of that the fact that Tony Budding, #2 or #3 within crossfit would counter here in a public forum is also ridiculous.
As an employee that has not been given due or proper notice, Robb had no choice but to post his opinions here. As management (or whatever the hell you want to call it) Tony and all of HQ is showing their complete lack of disrespect for all of their current and future employees.
Robb – I look forward to attending your next Nutrition cert that is not a part of crossfit.
Nick-
Technically I’m an independent contractor, but a 10 year relationship should have produced a more professional response than this. Oh, like a REASON.
This is bullshit. I just spent good money for my girlfriend and myself to see you in Vancouver in January. I’ll be getting my money back for sure.
First off, thanks Robb for posting this information. I believe all of us in the CrossFit community have a right to know about the behavior and actions of those we consider to be leaders. I for one, have had the opportunity to take the nutrition cert with Robb, and it was worth every penny. I have also thought a long time about opening my own CrossFit affiliate, unfortunately the only affiliate in my small town conducts itself in a shockingly similar manner to those emissaries at HQ. When the GreySkull article appeared, it was reassuring to see that finally, someone had the galls to bring to light the very topic that so many of us in the community had been considering. I was also fortunate enough to have the opportunity to attend a CrossFit 101 seminar with Coach G himself, and witness first-hand his response to the probing about the Grey Skull article. As more information comes to light, as I see the way the affiliate in my community conducts business, as I watch the “leaders” acting like children bickering back and forth, I am becoming more an advocate of general strength and conditioning and way less fond of the term CrossFit. As a community, we should be welcoming to new ideas, constantly trying to better ourselves and each other, open to questions and different ways of thinking. We should not be tearing each other down, imposing a superiority complex on others, making threats, and pushing people out. I think the video(s), in their entirety, should be posted. Let the community make their own decisions based on what we see. After all, we are all adults here, right?
Guess I’m not surprised, as CF has shown a talent for burning bridges in the past (Dan John comes to mind). Anyway, Rob, I have always found your writings both informative and entertaining, and wish you continued success.
Robb,
Insert obligatory apology
…however, way to go dude!
Crossfit is too big to be owned. It’s all of our natural rights to explore fitness/nutrition/and health as we see fit. Crossfit helped thousands of us re-engage in that, but that’s not to say they are the key holders.
Like any community, actions speak louder than words (or money). Anyone that’s ever spent five minutes in a room with you comprehends your worth as a human being.
Robb,
I have been experimenting with all that is crossfit for the last 2 years. I love the variety, the intensity, and the community. I also found some limitations, so I played around with Gant Grimes hybrid system, JW’s football, and finally settled on MEBB for my current programming. I did zone for a while until I came across your blog and after EXTENSIVE research on pubmed (I’m an MD) I really bought into it and now exclusively do paleo and MEBB. A great combo. In short, having spent a lot of time in globo gyms and now the crossfit spinoffs, I have found your approach the most reasonable. The operative word is reasonable. Very similar tone you get from Greg’s Oly seminar and from OPT on his site and in person.
This is very different from crossfit. There is very little reasoned acceptance to other ideas. Just a dogged clinging on to a good model that could use some tweaking. It is unfortunate really, as there is tremendous potential there, but actions like Castro’s really expose an insecurity in the crossfit model and approach. They are obviously feeling the heat and are very worried — that anger and behavior (the systematic pushing of an agenda like russels/castros zone comments without consideration of other ideas) doesn’t come up from having a bad day.
What I found most interesting is the similarities to a professional medical conference. As a surgeon, you would be amazed at the vigor that people hold onto their ideas when evidence to the contrary is presented. They like their surgical approach and feel PERSONALLY attacked if it is questioned. There are people that are constantly experimenting, trying new things, studying their results. They are the true master surgeons. Then there are others who cling on to old ways until it is finally accepted that their approach has worse outcomes.
The difference is the first group is interested in outcomes and helping people, while the second group is really focused on themselves. Their self-worth is wrapped up in their technique, and any confrontation of it is interpreted as an attack on themselves. Its the same with Castro and crossfit. This didn’t come from castro having a bad day. They are scared of something, and get very agitated when anyone points out anything that could be improved.
Keep doing what you are doing. You are a wonderful resource to a lot of people, and that is what is most important. Everything happens for a reason, and you will likely be more effective now that you don’t have to be hamstrung by crossfit!
Eric
Will full refunds be given to everyone who chooses to opt out? Seeing as the seminar will no longer be what was signed up for.
Do L1 certs still reference eating Big Macs in zone proportions as a viable way of existing?
Dave-
No ideea on the money situation. I doubt they will budge on this as it;s the money that is the root of the problem. If they have any integrity they will allow affiliate booked to host and the attendees to opt out if they so choose.
Robb, we only met briefly out in Aromas this year…but I’ve been a long time blog lurker of yours. Very sorry that you have to deal with this, and I’m also sorry I missed the opportunity to go to your cert in Boston a few months ago. Get the book done and get back here! 😀
Robb–Just wanted to thank you for everything you’ve done for the nutrition community. Your info and suggestions have massively improved my health and that of my family. I’m sorry to hear about this CrossFit mess but please keep doing what you’re doing, we’re all behind you. And I can’t wait for the book!
If it’d do any good I’ll email Glassman himself and tell him how much less likely it is that I will ever attend a crossfit nutrition cert with you not teaching them. I’m behind the idea of crossfit 100% – and consequently I believe that we need the very best out there as instructors. I’m praying this gets amended.
Unfortunate. Just really unfortunate.
Robb- I have interacted with you and your wife via email, this blog, and in person at a seminar. Let me say, that you were ALWAYS the consumate professional, even in instances when people disagree with you on any given topic. I obviously do not know the “ins and outs” of this conflict, but I tend to believe that you are standing on solid ground. You will always have support in the health and fitness community, and I have no doubt that this will only propel you further towards your goals.
Of course it is Tony! You are the officially appointed spin doctor for Crossfit. If you don’t say it happened, it didn’t happen, right?
We need only drop back a few years and look at your actions to spin the Dan John and Mark Twight fallings-out in an attempt to make Gregg look good, despite the direct quotation of his own text denigrating both men.
You are a known liar. I can point you to where you deliberately lied and attempted to mislead the Crossfit community if you wish. Those written words, now excised from the WOD blog, still reside in specific places.
Those few people, like myself, who are interested in how you and the HQ “kids” conduct Crossfit business while Daddy’s away are well aware of your role. It’s been detrimental to the growth and evolution of Crossfit.
You aren’t going to be able to spin this one away. Excellent job earning your six figure salary.
Aiy Ca-rumba. Sad turn of events for everyone Robb. I’m sure you know that trainers and affiliates out in the community still support you…. and HQ. Growing pains are tough, I would hope things would be different from such a tight community. Plenty of zoners out here that cleaned up the quality because of your work Robb, don’t stop.
Tony, you were there only on Friday. You didn’t witness Dave’s behavior.
Will Nicki, in the OPEN SOURCE world of CrossFit HQ facts are but trifling things.
Sounds like quite the drama. As CrossFit gets more mainstream and continues to grow we’re going to have more disagreements. I think overall, these sorts of things need to be handled in a professional manner. I’m sad to hear that Robb isn’t involved anymore, but having public altercations doesn’t further CrossFit overall or make it appear in the right eye to the general public.
The quality control issue and unlimited potential number of affiliates is a problem for athletes and affiliate owners (like myself). I know they stated they won’t do anything, but from a business perspective I think that limits them down the road from the “elite fitness” tag.
Finally, considering we’re in the process of planning a Mid-Atlantic CrossFit Think Tank (Robb, you should come), I’m now a little concerned about us speaking bluntly about training methods, movements and all the other stuff that isn’t 100% in praise of CrossFit. Isn’t that how we get better? We critique, listen humbly and try to better ourselves?
Kyle-
I appreciate the offer…you are a brave man!
Robb-
That’s all shitty, but not suprising. Keep kicking ass.
Craig
Robb: Eeck, such drama. Yeah, being a business professional, they dirtied ya – regardless of anything they may have had in the works or not.
Your brand will definitely live on. Keep it out there for us! I’m new to your blog, but I love your open mind and willingness to share the Truth. It’s changed my life.
What are we to do when some of the brightest and accomplished trainers and programmers in CrossFit are publicly ridiculed for holding different opinions, than HQ, that are aimed to improve the community? I remember when the point of all of this was to take the best of what worked and apply it. It seems we have gotten away from this, our programs and protocols should not be set in stone with any question of their efficacy seen as dissension and accused as such. I would like to thank Greg Everett, Robb Wolf and Mark Rippetoe for your years of service to this community. You all have dedicated your time to making us better trainers and athletes…and we all owe you for it. As for HQ, I don’t know if you see whats going on or even care for that matter but the standards that made this community what it is are degrading… you are alienating the people who have made it great and we all see it. Robb, thank you for your Time.
Robb, I was at the Black Box Summit and learned a lot from you and the other presenters. I’d love to host a Robb Wolf Nutrition Seminar at Potomac Crossfit whenever you’d like to come.
Oh Robb — I feared this kinda stuff would happen to CF someday. The sensitivity, politics and personal affronts were bound to happen. The silver lining for you? Maybe it’s better to have happened now, as opposed to several years from now.
Either way, I’m sorry you had to experience this, and I thank you for clearing the air. Rip’s departure was never really publicized, and it still bothers me to this day.
Robb, just want to say that I attended your cert in Atlanta recently and it was INCREDIBLE. I respect your openness within the community and I think that alone should make people begin to question our so called “leaders” at HQ.
CrossFit has several outlets to share news within the community, yet somehow I imagine that this little debaucle will be left unannounced. It’s a shame too because I feel like more and more people are beginning to lose faith in CF HQ.
How ironic that the one thing that could destroy CF is the very thing that made it what it is today. Regardless, you got a fan/student for life here.
This is really unfortunate on so many levels.
Robb,
Quite frankly I am crushed to hear this. I was at the Black Box Summit, and the what Robb described in the post, is exactly the way the weekend played out. The Black Box Summit was far and away the best money I’ve ever spent on something CrossFit, or Training related. There was intelligent discussion on several different modes of training. Robb and Nicki gave invaluable information on business practices, and training protocols. Not a single thing I heard this week, could I construed as an “attack” on CrossFit. The presentations were simply people who are out in our field, in the trenches, giving us their years of experience and the practices that worked best for them, NOT an attack on CrossFit.
Quite frankly I see no one else in this community with the knowledge, experience, and intelligence that rivals James Fitzgerald and Robb Wolf. To simply brush aside one of these people is very disconcerting to me.
Robb like I told you after the seminar the intelligent rationale and reasoning you provide for your information is refreshing, and inspiring for someone who sees himself as a rookie in this coaching game. I truly wish you the best of luck. You are going to be successful with or without CrossFit it, but as a member of the affiliate community I am deeply saddened to lose one of our most valuable commodities. If you are ever in Austin, TX again you have a home with us.
Wes Kimball
Owner CrossFit Austin
I did not see Tony Budding one time at the summit after Friday.
Truly unfortunate, Robb. CrossFit may not want to be a “franchise” but it’s becoming increasingly apparent that we’re starting to operate as an oligarchy. If there really is a party line (and swift and harsh consequences for not toeing it) I just wish they would’ve let us know. I know Karen, one of my trainers, had an awesome time learning from you at your cert in VA, and all of my trainers and I will be headed to Rip’s new SS cert in NJ. Just remember that “cream rises to the top” is a rule of life, not just CrossFIt, and intelligent people will recognize and reward quality no matter what brand name is slapped in front of it. You and Nicki have had a huge influence on how we operate as a fledgling affiliate, and as long as you keep putting it out there, we’ll keep scarfing it up. SBCF is behind you 100%, for what it’s worth.
Robb, as you know, I have always thought that you are one of my mentors. I still have hard copies of our original (1999???) emails. I’m glad you pointed out that awful review of Mark Twight’s seminar and how inappropriate the review was and how inaccurate, too. It’s a sad affair when someone shows up simply to undercut a speaker, but, trust me, whenever I give a crossfit workshop, I always warn the owner/contact person that it is my belief that it is a deliberate thing.
Robb, please know that you are well respected in the Strength and Conditioning community and some of the “secrets” that you have given me about nutrition have made me a better coach and athlete. One of my best memories is simply the lunches in Colorado Springs where you just broke down all of this information into three (literally!!!) bite sized pieces.
I’m just a telephone call away and I continue to support you and your fine work any way I can.
Robb,
Welcome to the misfits. We should chat. Shoot me an email when things settle.
I am sorry to hear about this. It is very disappointing to me as an affiliate.
I am a huge fan of Robb, Rip and have had nothing but positive encounters with Jim at Dynamax.
Robb, I hope you find a way to put a nutrition cert together, I have been wanting to attend one that you taught and have kicked myself in the pants for not making it to the one you did in Austin.
Your time and effort for those of us in the Community are greatly appreciated and I have always enjoyed the fact that you are so approachable.
Thanks!
Robb,
Very sorry to hear. I’ve followed your site ever since my girlfriend attended your nutrition cert in Vegas last January. I think your reputation and also Dave Castro’s reputation speak for themselves… I know who I am going to believe.
Keep up the good work – can’t wait for your book.
Robb-
Unfortunately from what I hear from yourself and others within the community, professionalism from HQ is not exactly considered to be something of importance.
Robb, As ALWAYS, you were the absolute professional this weekend. My wife and I witnessed the entire thing. We were outright DISGUSTED by Dave’s actions.
You and Nicki also have our 100% support! Keep up the incredible work that you are doing. You are CHANGING LIVES for the better. It was our pleasure to meet and talk to you both this weekend. I can’t express just how grateful we are!
I support Robb Wolf.
Robb,
I look forward to the book tour and getting to come out to NORCAL one day to check out your on the ground operation. I attended a nutrition Cert Back in April and, no joke, it changed my outlook, my coaching, and my own training. I am glad I got to attend when you were around, and I know you will find away to stay on the road and spread the good word.
Joseph
Robb-
Nice work having the integrity to stand your ground even when it’s clearly going to cost you in terms of nutrition cert income. I’ll tell everyone I know to buy your book when it comes out…and I must know at least 15 or 20 people, so that’ll help defray some of those costs right?
What does this mean as far as your affiliate goes? Will your affiliation be involuntarily “revoked”? Or are you planning on letting it expire anyways? I’m guessing your aside about company naming and co-branding had something to do with the fact that NorCal S&C doesn’t HAVE to include the word CrossFit…
Eric-
We plan on remaining an affiliate so our folks can compete in the games (although how fair of treatment they will get at the CASTRO FAMILY RANCH will be interesting to see). I also STILL believe in the community. I need have no interaction with HQ to be of service and with the fetters of being a Company Guy lifted I’ll be able to do this in a much more direct, effect way. I would not be surprised if they did kick us out however. In their mind we would have less credibility if we are no longer an affiliate.
I am only sorry for the drama, but I am happy that you’re moving on. And I apologize on behalf of my state that you had to endure this triumverate of incompetency.
I met some good people in CF but am amazed that the “community” continues to endorse behavior like this. The quality of people that have left–and will continue to leave–far exceeds that of the people calling the shots.
Whoa. I am so sorry about that. How embarrassing for the people who acted like assholes.
Not to make light of it, but…My mom would tell you “they’re just jealous.”
This will continue to be the first place I check for my sports nutrition info….
Hey Robb,
It’s Kevin O’Malley from Vagabond CrossFit… I have talked you numerous times through email and also through the nutrition cert… You have been a complete professional and have always helped me in my journey through nutrition and crossfit… I do not really see it as a a sad thing, that you are leaving the crossfit ranks, but look at it as liberating and now being able to do what you want and say what you want… Your the Best Man and one of my true inspirations.. When you think the book will be done?? Just wondering…. Paleo Paleo Paleo…
Robb,
As a Biology PhD I was skeptical of your dietary advice about a year ago (coming from a zone world view), however after throughly reading everything in Pubmed and consulting my biochem texts I am convinced your methods and science are sound (and my constant PRs support this). I attribute my success to your advice, and I was looking forward to an entire Wolf lecture/discussion at a CF Nutrition Seminar. It looks like I’ll be waiting for a Wolf Nutrition Seminar after the book comes out. Too bad thing went down this way.
Gabe-
this si all I ask of folks. Read the material, try the protocols. check your results. I do not see many people say it does not work better than anything else they have done. Honestly it surprises me sometime how well it works but the results speak for themselves.
Wow Robb. That was some serious crap that went on there. I assume that all the CrossFit labels on your site will start disappearing soon? Although there are things I don’t agree with CrossFit (specifically the mentality of some of the folks when it comes to the willingness to seek out what works and always improve since S&C is as much of an art as it is science), dropping you from their nutrition cert is foolish. How many CF’ers are former scientists with a large understanding in biology? Your experience and ability to figure out S&C along with nutrition from a scientific perspective and as an athlete/coach is extremely valuable. Man, what a huge mistake to make on the part of HQ.
This seems to have been brewing for a long time. Sounds like Dave went there with a pre determined outcome. Tony Budding is so transparent. Before I lost interest in journal article comments I used to always see him respond to disenting questions with a tone of arrogance that was just mind blowing. Add that to the fact that he always came back to the same broad time blah blah empirical blah blah measurable observable blah blah he really comes across as nothing more than a cultist spokesmouth. O’h yeah that is exactly what he is. I hope he keeps posting here for nothing more than comedy relief. O’h and one last thing. His opening comment about his post being censored is so telling. For those guys being so Libertarian and all they sure do have the Communist Dictator thing down pretty damn good.
clay-
Exactly.
Robb, the cream rises to the top! unless you skim it off and make 2%.
I cant comment about what happened @ the cert because I am sure that both sides are putting a little spin on it, however even if what actually happened is half way between both sides it was some pretty screwed up and unnecessary drama, at an event that people were paying good money to attend. I think what crossfit HQ does not seem to understand is that not everyone is MAKING money off of crossfit, the majority of us plebs are supporting it both functionally and financially. The least we can have in return is a little professionalism.
Let me know when you are having YOUR next nutrition seminar. I will make sure to attend. If the HQ line is that the zone will solve all my problems I will skip their seminar and buy Spears’ book, much cheaper.
I read a lot of posts and threads and barely ever comment, but I’m very glad to have been able to go to one of your certs before this transpired. I feel bad for whoever has to go to the replacement and listen to a full day of the zone. looking forward to your book Robb!
Robb:
Sorry to hear about this weekend’s drama.
But mostly I’m sorry that so many people might not get the chance to learn what you have to teach about nutrition because they will blindly follow what the Crossfit directors tell them.
Going to your nutrition cert back in Feb 2009 started my journey towards Paleo, and I’ve never been happier or felt so ‘right.’ My husband and I are trying to live by example for our family and friends, and your teachings at the cert (and in this blog) help us explain the science behind it. Your humor and explanations for us lay people are invaluable.
Can’t wait for your book!
Well, there goes my plans to go out to Ramona for the Nutrition cert and Kids cert duo. The main point of going West was to attend a cert run by you, the Kids cert was the cherry on the sundae.
I look forward to hearing about your future endeavors.
As an attendee of the BBS, I didn’t witness the details of the exchanges, but your description is exactly as I saw the initial confrontations. I found Castro’s behavior killed the energy and excitement of the day and it was disappointing to say the least. I will never understand why HQ-who in early CFJ articles promised to continue to evolve and absorb new, better ideas-is destroying relationships with anyone trying to better the community. I haven’t had the opportunity to attend a nutrition cert, so I’m very grateful I got to hear your presentation over the weekend. It was exceptional.
Robb,
Sorry to hear this, I guess I was lucky I got in on the cert you did at BTB Atlanta on 15 Nov.
Good luck with the book, and I will continue lurking about your blog.
I am sure Robb will have some more nutrition lectures listed over at paleobrands.com after the dust settles. 🙂 Sorry to hear about this Robb.
Thomi
What open source license does CrossFit use? As a software engineer who produces open source code, this does not feel like open source to me. Open discourse is fine, but name calling is petty and usually doesn’t move the initiative forward in any meaningful way unless this results in the bifurcation of the movement with new management and new ideas.
BTW, I’d pay to see Greg and Dave go at it.
Robb, all I can say is that I look forward to the book. And once you’re back on the circuit, we look forward to seeing you in AZ.
Wow! The drama never ends. Sorry( but not suprised) to hear it got out of hand Robb. Don’t sweat it. Keep doing what you are doing.
Steve-Thansk dude! Good to hear from you.
PS –
I also support:
Greg Everett
Mark Twight
Mark Rippetoe
JP at Greyskull
Poliquin, et. al.
IGX
I do not support:
censorship
despotism
fascism
elitism
retarded/unknown programming
fauxhawks/walletchains, et. al.
After reading this, I’m far more naive than I previously thought.
Too much success too fast for CrossFit? Do we lack the maturity to handle it all? Just think of all the haters who will be chuckling to themselves all the way through Thanksgiving over this. Truly, we have seen the enemy, and it is ourselves.
I think an analogy wholly apropos for this situation might be something akin to our CF community suddenly experiencing an autoimmune disease.
Ego, then, would be like some really crappy CHO. We like to feed on it ’cause it feels good at the time. But eventually it catches up to you and everything begins going south.
This sucks. There’s way too much good happening for this situation to be allowed to stand.
Everyone: only a fool refuses to change his/her mind.
Scott- Crossfit Norcal De-affiliated several years ago in protest of heavy handed antics like this. this hope was to affect change, I got involved again hoping to do the same. I feel like I succeeded in that I’ve directly hep lots of people, HQ unfortunately was beyond my ability to influence or improve.
We took a pretty heavy toll both socially and financially when we left before. I never said anything about it on the greater scale as there are people struggling to make their livings in this field. I’d hopped our silent protest would affect that change but it did not and I’ll not be silent this time.
Wow! I feel very fortunate to have attended the cert while you were still teaching it. You will continue to prosper with your book, Paleo Brands and Norcal S&C!
As much as it is a HUGE mistake by HQ and loss to the crossfit community, its probablly a blessing in disguise to finally free up time to get that book done!
I would bet money that through your blog, seminars and work at Norcal that you have changed more lives than all staff of crossfit headquarters put together. The seminars were a great way to get the word out, but you have done enough now that old participants can start spreading the word for you. Especially with the podcasts that you have been posting lately, people who need the information now have an avenue to access it. And finishing the book, your knoweledge and teachings will be able to reach just that much more people!
Oh, Wolfy, you bad boy! I’ve been in your corner all along, even when you went back to the CF fold. I wish you the best and continued success. You are on the side of the angels here.
As for Mr. Budding’s criticism, we all consider the source.
I like that Tony Budding has enough time on his hands to say he had a different view of what happened right after the blog was posted, but not quite enough time to actually post any specifics (even though he is essentially claiming that Robb’s post is libellous).
I hope HQ delays the release of the official version of events until after Saturday. That’s when I squat, and when I read the CFJ article on the Gym Jones Seminar I laughed so much my abs were sore for a week.
HQ probably won’t respect my wishes though because as everyone knows only an idiot would plan his workouts as far ahead as Saturday 🙁
George-
Periodization is pseudo-science. As is paleo. Elite performance in life can ONLY be achieved via a random approach. Markets are random…therefore life must be random.
Robb,
I am very disappointed to hear this. Yours was the first CF Cert I had attended (at Agoge Gym, in WA), & I was very impressed with your class! I am so glad that I was able to take the class when I did!
You are always welcome here in the NW…& if you need more white coffee, just say the word! 🙂
Heather A.
I’m glad someone mentioned Jim at Dynamax. He is a genius and a good soul who gives a ton to the community and his treatment by certain parties is shocking.
Wow! I just got done watching all the videos on sicfit.com and I do have to commend the speakers for not acting like there was a problem. Even after you and Nicki held an extreme amount of professionalism and continued to help the affiliates of an organization who moments ago just told you you would no longer be a part of it. Hopefully this doesnt get out of hand, hopefully things are mended…..i dont see it really happening though honestly. Its not like you were all drunk at a social function, things are not probably going to be “taken back.” I think HQ may have jumped the gun and have not fully looked at their scales and seen how this will affect them with robb and probably others leaving. we are suppose to be “forging elite athletes” and changing people for the better through more adaptable training methods, programs and nutrition but recently I find myself defending my training more than training. Watching top people, who a lot look up to for knowledge and coaching/business smarts fight like this is upsetting in multiple ways. i think a video should come out so its not “he said, he said.” I know glassman has said “im just a trainer” kind of washing his hands of responsibility for how CF is run but his “baby” is growing up and becoming a wild/bratty teenager and I think he should, because he is more than smart enough, step in and intervene. Hopefully 10yrs between the both of you means something. It doesnt in the corporate world, ive seen that 1st hand and if CF HQ separates themselves from franchises and co. ideology then hopefully it will help its family rather than exile one/some of its members for not following. They say we are cultish, like a church and Glassman is our pastor and if going against the clergy gets you banished then all of us are at risk.
Robb you know where you stand with the community and these people as far as the help, knowledge and power youve given us. sorry this happened so close to the holidays and at all but I dont see this weighing you down.
I also sent you an email that might have arrived at “perfect timing” concerning future endeavors. Please read. Take care
FYI, Crossfit appears to be deleting comments on the main site referencing this post. Someone mentioned that you had written something about the summit (nothing more) and within minutes it was gone. Ironic, considering Tony’s comment above.
Sam-
Yes, this is typical of HQ. No open discussion, not a lick of admission of guilt or culpability. Just spin and hyperbole. Oh, and massive suppression. Not even a counter point to this and you know why? Normally, HQ is able to spin things and try various techniques such as Straw Man but this time we have VIDEO. Castro is caught red-handed doing all this, attendees of the summit corroborate all this and it is just another piece of a larger picture of thugish intimidation and heavy handedness. so they cannot deny this happened like they usually do, so they rely on suppression and they are likely a beehive of activity trying to figure out what spin will put this on an HQ favorable course.
hi Robb,
I am sorry to hear about the latest turn of events, especially since I never made it to your Nutrition cert. Can’t say I’m surprised though… something always felt off but I figured if CF could muster up all of their integrity they would certainly do it for you. The lack of professionalism and lack of free exchange of thought (and lack of periodization) leads a lot of people (myself included) from CF and towards other programs, which is a shame because there are a lot of great people.
Yael
Rob,
This is the epitomy of jealousy from my perspective simply from reading your post! We all know that you are the most squared away person in these areas! Don’t stoop to their level and compromise the truth & facts about CF nutrition or form! Enjoy the time off and get your book finished. I am sure HQ will have to retract their poorly thought out decision when they see how attendance numbers are affected from it!
Robb-
Keep up the good work. Your board posts, blog posts, and all the other content you have put out have been excellent. I’m looking forward to the book.
Robb,
This right after the Greyskull thing really has me worried. When did CrossFit become more about “the powers at be” and less about developing a system of functional fitness that is effective for every person? My thoughts of opening an affiliate have ended. First, I read the Greyskull post and was in agreement. Then, I went to an affiliate and got rhabdo from a programed WOD from a “trainer”. Yes, it was part my fault, but any affiliate to Rx 300 GHD situps should be de-affiliated. Now, I read this story. It is very dissapointing. What happened to the open minded CrossFit community that I first found?!?!?!
Unfortunately, many of us have seen this coming a mile away. The movement to regulate content and opinion about crossfit within the community itself reeks of low self esteem, poor business practices and dishonesty.
Where IS that RRG money anyway?
Robb –
I am saddened by the events of this past weekend and hope that as the dust settles and the fall out stops, everyone will be able to objectively step back and reflect on what happened.
NO ONE deserves to be yelled at, humiliated or disrespected in a public forum, much less one like the Black Box, and you only did what you felt best. Best of luck to you…I never had the pleasure of attending your certs, but rest assured I will buy your book and attend a seminar with you even if it is not CFHQ “approved.” I am not sure I could say the same about official CF Nutrition Certs. How do you remove one of the best thinkers, researchers, communicators and coaches in the world and expect the quality to remain high?
Tony, I do not know you and I was not at the Black Box, but as a member of HQ staff and a representative of the brand, you owe it to yourself, to the Glassmans, to the affiliate owners and to everyone who LOVES CrossFit to conduct yourself with the utmost dignity and respect. I have never seen you do anything less than that until this drama (though others might disagree) and urge you to reconsider your choice to engage in “name calling, etc.” If Robb’s account of the events is wrong, prove it. Release the tapes. If it is not, then you owe Robb an apology for calling him out on HIS blog. After all, isn’t it all about the demonstrability of evidence. As you have challenged other: put up or shut up.
The sad thing in all of this is that the CF community has been weakened and it is my sincerest hope that others (Everett, OPT, Dutch, Rutherford, Welbourn) do not leave the community due to the events and opinions of the few.
CrossFit has a way of letting the cream rise to the top and then skimming it off and discarding it. Sorry this had to happen.
Robb,
You know that you have our complete respect and support. I’m working on a great Oveja Negra T-shirt design. You wear a large? 😉
Dallas-
Large, or extra, extra medium!
Robb,
Sorry HQ made that choice. We’ve had amazing results using your advice in our gym. Regardless of your relationship with HQ, you’ll still be our go-to nutrition expert. Thanks, man. Keep up the good work.
Robb,
My friend you are the reason people want to listen. Sorry things didn’t work out in this manner, but perhaps it is a necessary step in your journey (as god knows I have had plenty of setbacks as well). Maybe this is the motivation to just finish your book (and gives you the time and focus to do so) and do what you do best. Be true to yourself, walk away from anything that takes you down that negative path in life and the people will follow because of who you are and your message.
Be true to yourself and keep the faith!
Mike OD
MOD-
Always good to hear from you old friend. thanks.
I saw the way Dave Castro acted in “Every Second Counts” and I can only imagine how it was to see him act so unprofessionally. Thanks for all you do for the community. Keep up the great work!
Robb,
A little about me before I begin, I was an outstanding amateur boxer for 5 years. I have also trained amateur and professional boxers for a few years, even working with a world champion. Needless to say, I have been involved with boxing at a very high level. I was accustomed to the diet that all all major promotions assign to their fighters through a nutritionist, the five meals a day, breakfast consisting of oatmeal for breakfast with toast, and so on and so forth. I always prescribed to giving %150 in the gym, and eating whatever you want. It took a nine hour seminar to change my entire viewpoint on food.
I found Crossfit approximately 6 months ago, and never looked back. It filled the void that not fighting as a boxer had caused in my life. I feel like an athlete once again. I have spent the last 6 months learning all that I can about Crossfit, and am happy to say that I am surrounded by great coaches and athletes in the affiliate that I go to. I do not know any other Crossfit’s, but I recognize good training when I encounter it. About one month ago I had the pleasure of attending a Crossfit Nutrition Seminar taught by Matt Lalonde and Bobbi. It was the most influential experience I have ever had as an athlete. Learning all that taught about Paleo and the Zone, was simply eye-opening. Simply put, It changed my life. And even through this, they, as well as my affiliate owner, spoke of Robb Wolf, the MAN when it comes to nutrition.
I feel robbed that I will never hear you lecture through a Crossfit certification. I feel that the Crossfit community has certainly lost a great and highly influential figure. Of course I speak with limited knowledge of the others that are out there, but I know the influence that you, Matt and Bobbi have had on my life, I currently adhere to the Paleo diet, and life has never been better.
I hope that one day our paths will cross, because although I have not had the pleasure of shaking your hand personally, your legacy precedes you everywhere you go. Keep you head held high, for you have done nothing wrong. I am sure many people in that seminar were thankful at the time that you went out there to attempt to mediate the situation, and it is a downright disgrace that your well-guided intentions and actions resulted in being so detrimental to not just you, but the Crossfit community as a whole.
I am really sorry to hear about this. Keep on truckin Robb. You have provided a wealth of information that benefits everyone. This is bullshit. How’s this for “free market” and the “cream rises to the top”: I want my fucking money back for the nutrition cert I was going to attend.
Again I am sorry to hear you got canned.
Robb,
I met you last spring when you did a x-fit nutrition seminar in Portland. Going to that was the best thing I have ever done for myself. Being plagued with eating disorders and multiple autoimmune diseases can be the most self destructing obstacle to face, especially when you are working out all the time busting your ass doing cross fit workouts and making yourself crazy counting out nine almonds and two cups of spinach and not getting the results you want or deserve. Going paleo has drastically changed my body, mind and soul in more ways than one. thank you so much for freeing me from the curse of having to count, measure or make the “perfect proportions” type of thinking. I’m so glad I made it to your cert. It never ceases to amaze me how people can turn on you so fast. I can’t stand close minded people who are afraid to accept new concepts. I think its all about balance and taking the “best” from each approach out there in the fitness/nutrition industry. X-fit has so many good things to offer BUT so do a lot of other programs. To not be open to other ideas is childish and goes against their philosophy of variety and constant change. Thanks again for everything. For the first time in my life I actually feel good about myself. I look forward to seeing more of your nutrition seminars. Please come back to Portland!
cheers!
Robb,
First off it was great to see you and Nicky this last weekend. You guys have been a good part of my recent growth.
That being said:
I was present when Dave and Greg threw comments during the seminar. I couldn’t believe that what I was hearing was anything but joking around. But then right after the presentation, when we were to take a break, Dave moved right to Greg to lecture him on what he shouldn’t be doing. In some way I understood, because Greg was being jokingly disrespectful of the form in the CrossFit HQ pictures he had shown. But I did not believe it warranted that level of reaction from Dave. (But I don’t really know the history either.) When they went outside I didn’t catch any loud yelling, but you could tell Dave was not happy and really giving it to Greg. I was just surprised that this was happening. These are things that should be done behind closed doors or discussed in a productive manner.
As for what was said by Nicki about how you run and market NorCal. It really resonated with me and made sense. I didn’t find anything she said as disrespecting CrossFit or the brand of CrossFit.
I really appreciated hearing unbiased opinions on nutrition, CrossFit Programming and how each presenter runs their affiliate. CrossFit has always extended the montra that if someone finds something better they would be willing to adopt it. Now I understand that they have been teaching that Zone is the way…and maybe it is. But to stifle the opinions of the person they had previously counted on for their expertise does not seem valid either.
I do want you to realize that most of the attendees only saw a small amount of what must have been happening behind the scenes. And I know that I appreciated the fact that the presenters were willing to give their honest opinions and views.
I enjoy the fact that most of the Crossfit affiliates can put their own spin on what I feel is a great program. It is in these small differences that can make affiliates so great and individual to those that run them.
You and Nicki are a great value and inspiration to those of us that are working to make our Affiliates the best they can be. I hope that you remain and help grow CrossFit in the right direction.
I hope this does not take away from what I feel was a great event.
I am sorry to hear about what is happening with you and HQ.
Robb, as someone who has attended your cert, applied the knowledge, and achieved fantastic results (mirror and blood work) I was truly bummed to read this. You were such a huge asset to the Crossfit community, it is too bad that this happened.
I always thought that Dave Castro was a snarky, little man, but I just went along with it because he was the mouthpiece of Crossfit. I can’t believe that someone would act so irrationally and rudely in what was attempting to be a learning environment. Unbelievable.
Keep fighting the good fight. You are rational, extremely intelligent, and respectful of others — you will be successful in your life, with or without these kind of people.
Robb:
This is sad, even if a little bit of this is true. You, Nicki, Greg, Aimee, Rut, Dutch, OPT, and Jeremy have been nothing but helpful to countless trainees, both to those at your gyms and to those via the ‘net.
I guess I’m having a hard time understanding the logic of the HQ personnel in attendance. If CF is an open source model, and their stance is one that is laissez-faire in regards to how each affiliate is run, then why the animosity toward a group of well-educated, experienced trainers whose goal is to promote best practices in training? Shouldn’t they want trainers and affiliates to promote them? Shouldn’t trainees, who are paying good money for coaching, be allowed to benefit from these practices?
In the three years I’ve followed crossfit, I’ve seen it slipping. Its a shame the organization is pushing away top quality people. Robb, You’ve done more than Castro or Budding has done for the community. Castro acts like a pompous jerk in any video I’ve seen, and Budding has done little more than videotape shit. Its people like you, Greg, Nicki, Dutch, Rut and the similar that are making a difference. Keep it up!!
Robb;
We’ve chatted a few time via phone over the years, I’ve been following your blog since it went up. Your articles on diet have been forwarded to many of my friends. I have a diabetic friend that follows your eating suggestions and feels that it improves the quality of his life.
Stay the course.
Jay C.
Its too bad that you won’t be doing the cert anymore Rob. i just attended your cert in Huntington and you’ve made a believer out of me regarding Paleo. I’ve had stomic issues all my life and now it seems to be gone so thank you for the education.
As for the politics, there’s probably not a single business or a corporation that has gone through the success and the growth as CF has had and not experienced this type of personnel and political issues. It’s normal that some will not agree, some will depart, some will rebel, etc. The critical part of all this for the CF community and especially for the affiliates is how Coach and HQ will handle and “LEAD” us through this rough period. If they do it successfully, we (affiliate owners) will all be awarded. If they do not, we better all have our own distinctive branding as suggested in this post.
The truth shall set you free. Looks like you just removed the CF shackles. Go, prosper. CF HQ has shot themselves in the face. Thanks for all you do and for the good of so many, please continue to do it.
Oh, and fear is always the source of anger.
man…robb opt and greg are all people i get most of my fitness/nutrition related knowledge from…and i learned about all of them through crossfit so pretty ironic…good luck with everything robb…big fan of your work
Robb,
Really sorry to hear all of this. We’ve a lot of respect for your work over this side of the atlantic, i’ll continue to follow your site just as closely as ever. Im travelling from Ireland to attend your cert and kelly starretts cert in your box in january, will it still be on as its on in crossfit norcal?
Steve-
We will NOT host a nutrition cert with a presenter other than myself in my own gym. HQ could have thought all this through and handled it in a way that did not impact literally hundreds of people. They did not have the professionalism to do that. Steve, what I may do for that event is open it to the attendees who are scheduled to come to chico. I will present a FREE seminar at NorCal Strength & Conditioning. I doubt if HQ will be scrupulous enough to refund the money, but if people want to skip wherever they are going to hold that event, I’ll do something for free in chico. I will need people to send me confirmation of their CF cert and I need to see how many folks would be interested in this VS getting the piee of paper from whomever they will have teach the CFNC
I knew I should’ve taken the nutrition Cert when I lived in San Francisco. Damn it!
I was waiting for the link to go live for the Nutrition Cert in Calgary in April 2010 to learn from your expertise.
Looks like I will not be taking the cert after all.
Best of luck Robb, your education and wisdom will serve you well with or without CrossFit
Wow, that’s shocking and sad. I discovered crossfit sometime around late 2004, and following the community closely (from a distance) for a while. I learned a tremendous amount, for which I’ll always be grateful. But I stopped following it regularly around the time of the Dan John blowup–it wasn’t just that incident, but that plus similar other events that convinced me the community just had too many strong egos in charge, trying to control the community in ways that made it, for me, less interesting (as well as morally repulsive, quite frankly–some good people were treated like shit.)
I’m not sure I’ve even logged on to the main crossfit website in the last few years. I do love your blog, though–I hope you’ll keep it up.
I knew I should’ve taken the nutrition Cert when I lived in San Francisco. Damn it! Sorry to hear what happened. Keep on truckin’, Robb!
Nathan-
I will have a gig when the book is done. And it was NEVER a “cert”. I hated that and argued against calling it that. There was no test, no measurable criteria for it. I have a ton of material I could never do in the CFNC because of politics, all that will come out now.
Robb,
Thanks for all of the volumes of information that you have posted over the years. I appreciate the fact that you follow the science and are willing to change your perspective if the data warrants. Stay strong.
I posted on the main site to visit your blog. As of yet it has not been posted. I also saw where Freddy C has resigned his HQ training spot to focus on OneWorld. One of the things that drew me to CF was that it sought out experts in all of the various disciplines. Now they are running them off. First Rip, now you and Greg.
Anyway, thanks for contributing so much.
Robb,
I am staggered. “Open source” generally means that more than one source is accepted. What ever happened to ‘if juggling toasters while wallowing on a stability ball works…’ I am most interested to see a more comprehensive reply from HQ on the events of the weekend. From those I know that attended the information was what this community needs to add to the menu and I was greatly looking forward to the Black Box Road Show coming to the Mid-Atlantic. Should you ever need a venue, you need but ask.
Robb,
What happened at the seminar is truly shocking. I think I speak for most athletes when I say that if you offer an independent nutrition seminar apart from CrossFit, countless people will still sign up and learn valuable information. I think that this community would not have seen the growth it has without you.
robb
It looks like Crossfit HQ has treated people with disrespect in the past and now they are doing it to you. I am glad you posted this article in your blog and you are letting people know what’s happening.
The more talk about it, the more pressure it will be on HQ to refund peoples money if your not there. People have the right to a refund!!!
Don’t take this the wrong way, I am happy they treated you disrespectful and fired you the way they did, they are letting the public know exactly what kind of jerks they are.
It is now time to move on and start doing your own seminars independent of crossfit. Crossfit may have done you a big favor by firing you the way they did.
As you might remember I eat a plant based diet,and have strong objections to coffee. I have been eating this way for a long time, but if I knew some who wasn’t interested in my diet, I would always point them in your direction. Paleo is the only direction to go.
I know lot’s of Crossfit members and some instructors that eat the zone diet, but when I see them they are always on their CHEAT days, eating junk food, it’s comical. Everyday becomes a cheat day. It becomes way to much work counting blocks and measuring foods, to me the zone diet is ridicules. They need to hear your[Robbs] voice. [DO YOU HEAR ME Crossfit HQ you made a big mistake!!!!!!]
Once you realize you don’t need Crossfit HQ, you will be much better off and free,
Good luck
.
Hi Robb,
I am sorry to hear what went down. Especially at a conference that was looking to better CrossFit and it’s community. I booked my Nutrition Cert with you in Vancouver last week. I will definitely be trying to get a refund. Probably won’t happen. Mark Sisson and Yourself have changed my life. Thank you for all you have done and all you will be doing in the future.
Dave
Not to worry Robb..CF is gonna fall on its face soon enough! You are probably well out of it anyway!
Good luck with your future. I met Dave Castro at the 2008 CF Games and my first impression of him was that he was very rude!
Julie
I guess it’s only cool to be an “Infidel” if it’s conventional wisdom you question. Didn’t we all get into CrossFit in the first place because we are community who DARES to question convention for a better way of doing things?? I know I did. As an affiliate owner this is disturbing news. CrossFit is touted as being an open-source model that grows and thrives on experimentation and constant tweaking to create an even better program than the original. I certainly hope that development is allowed to continue by CF HQ.
Robb, congrats on standing your ground. You’ve improved the program and the lives of many people with your hard work and research. You certainly have created a community of people likely to support you, in return. I know we will. Thank you.
So in retrospect if CF HQ ‘reps’ had just stayed away it would have resulted in an improved community. Short sighted. But it has happened before.
Zasrky-
It was honestly one of the best weekends I’ve seen. amazing material and I do not think you could find one attendee who did not feel like the presenters over delivered, that they were not floored with material that would improve their practices. It was different from any other HQ event in that you felt at ease discussing different approach and methods. Well, until Dave lost his mind. then it felt pretty normal.
You win any arm wrestling matches yet?
So Crossfit HQ touts this hands-off affiliation approach as a means of demonstrating their political leanings. They claim that through these methods the cream will rise to the top and the successes will speak for themselves. However, they squash any dissent, censor their trainers, and refuse to listen to anyone with a better way of doing things even when you’re one of their own experts? That is some bullshit and speaks volumes about the character flaws up there and how well their political philosophy is working for them.
I’d also like to add that someone posted a link to your article on the CF Message Boards… how quickly that thread was locked was unbelievable!
Kat-
Yes, it’s an OPEN SOURCE approach. Popular in both China and Cuba.
Robb,
I found crossfit about three years ago and love it. I go to a great affiliate, run by great professionals. In personal sessions, I have adopted more of a black box approach, as I find that the olympic lifting has fit me better, and given me better benefits. Additionally, in diet, I have gone towards paleo food, and don’t weigh a thing. I can’t zone it, and I don’t buy into zone. I know that a lot do, and that’s great, but it’s not for me. The bottom line is that black box and non-zone paleo has yielded great results for me, and I am thrilled.
I don’t think that any of this is mutually exclusive to crossfit, which seems to be what you were saying.
While you have done a lot through crossfit, I have always thought of you as your own brand. I get your RSS feeds, so I never miss a thing that you post. You are the ONLY nutrition source for crossfittes, as far as I am concerned. Please keep the faith!
Jim
What the hell? I was going to sign up for the Cert in January. Not anymore until you do your own thing. Do they really think they’ll get attendees without you as the instructor?
Robb,
This sucks brother, I’m sorry.
Your writings and lectures on the benefits of eating Paleo have changed my life forever. Thank you for that.
Best of luck in the future, I can’t wait to read your book.
Regards,
Jeremy
thanks for the write up. You have integrity Robb. Something very few people have.
I am a Head Trainer at a CrossFit gym that will remain undefined because Heaven forbid a CrossFit trainer have an opinion outside of HQ. I attended Robbs Nutrition Cert recently and I cannot say how amazing it was. I have a hard time believing anyone could learn more helpful things in the Level 1 “Seminar”… I have also been in regulart contact with John of Greyskull and I can honestly say I cant imagine anyone at CF HQ has any more knowledge than these two gentlemen. CrossFit has gotten out of control. I already hear negative comments about CrossFit within my community regarding the “elite” attitude of the system. CrossFit has adopted the “were better than you, and we know it” attitude and that will lead to the downfall of this wonderful system if something doesnt change.
I’m sorry to hear about the course of events over the weekend, however I see this as an opportunity to rid yourself of the incompetence and the insecurities that permeate throughout HQ. Why be associated with people who have no integrity, knowledge or sense of professionalism??
TO TONY BUDDING…as far as I’m concerned you have no purpose in the fitness community whatsoever. Moreover, I believe you were only at the seminar for 1 of the 3 days. Let me guess… your information was from the great Dave? Get some balls – oh wait, you’re too busy swinging from Dave and Glassman’s!!
“Will full refunds be given to everyone who chooses to opt out? Seeing as the seminar will no longer be what was signed up for.”
If they are not reasonable, take it up with your bank or card issuer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chargeback
Ahhh, this is pretty disappointing even though it was probably only a matter of time given how things were continuously brewing for the past couple years.
Good luck Robb.
Hopefully you can come out to the East Coast sometime again soon, so I can finally get to meet you. 🙂
Steve
Robb my grammar was a little unclear…what I was saying is that I AGREE with you, in an open source environment one should be able to tweak and make adjustments, with the goal being betterment of the community, in search of one thing, the truth.
Keep it up!
This is GREAT…the beginning of the end of crossfit…
Rob,
I am continually impressed by your integrity and unwillingness to sell out for filthy lucre. The fact that you care more about truth and right then money and prestige has and continues to impress me to the core. In a world where knowledge is used to take advantage of folks, there are many of us who appreciate the stand you have taken for what is best, not what can make the most money. And we will support you on where ever your journey takes you.
–Ashley
Ashley-
I appreciate that but I have honestly had misgivings about working for CF for the better part of a year. I feel like every seminar I did affected significant change, but it was a significant moral question almost every day. Especially when the frequent behind the scenes shenanigans like this happened. Free of that now however!!
Robb: Great post.
P.S.Team Zarsky !
I have YET to be defeated in arm wrestling. Serious matches have yet to arise though 😉
Yes I see your point. The community was strengthened by the quality of the event despite the “castro craziness” – but at the same time it has been hurt by your departure from nutrition certs (and in general it has been hurt by the lack of regard to your input over the last couple of years). I personally won’t be impacted – I will still follow you. But I am disheartened about those that may miss out. So the rest of us need to be more vocal.
Robb,
Very sorry to hear that for you, but even more sorry to hear that for Crossfit.
I think the different approaches of top coaches and affiliates help to further vary the “constantly varied” and promote ideas we can all learn and benefit from even if there is disagreement in what is best. After all, is it not these different ideas along with superior coaching that should seperate the top affiliates from the lesser ones and let the cream rise to the top? Heck, aren’t the different ideas and interpretations all part of the superior coaching? Isn’t that why you were all there to begin with? I’m asking somewhat rhetorically, but I’m very suprised and sorry to hear how that went down.
One begins to wonder if the recent growth in the number of affiliates has begun approaching a Dunbar’s number type of scenario where the upper size limits of the community in its current state are being tested…
Either way, I know you will continue sharing great information and knowledge with us, and that you will continue changing lives in the process.
I’m fortunate to have recently attended a cert with Matt & Bobbi, and they did an awesome job! I was looking forward to attending again the next time you were giving one somewhere local, but I guess that will have to wait a bit. For the record both paleo and zone got about equal time and emphasis in the cert I attended, as well as discussion about combining paleo and zone, finding the most appropriate solution for individual athletes and that athlete’s goal, and always with an emphasis on food quality first. (I know you know this since you put the cert together, but wanted to put it out there)
Anyway, I’m looking forward to the book and hopefully seeing some more Paleo Brands seminars come to the east coast in the near future.
Thanks and keep up the great work!
I feel bad for you. Your website is one that I follow and look to for nutritional information that benefits athletes, so I could personally care less who you’re affiliated with. Just keep on writing and tossing good info on your blog and you’ll be fine.
Someone has to say it, so it might as well be me. You did benefit from CrossFit, so you can’t be too ticked off at how things have gone down. It’s no different than quitting a job or getting fired because of something stupid. You’re a smart guy that will be successful because you know what you’re talking about. CrossFit wasn’t your ticket and you know that.
EJ-
totally true. I owe much to CF and to Glassman. the sad thing is I could owe them much more if the organization was not pathological to a point of spinning out it’s talent.
Robb,
This is all pretty crappy. But as one of the above comments articulated, if nothing happens to restore your position, then at least you aren’t hamstrung by crossfit.
We can’t be so sensitive to new information, or even an alternate way of looking at something that we explode at the people attempting to offer the alternate viewpoint. As someone has pointed out earlier, there seems to be a reason that HQ is so sensitive, probably not, but it sure looks like it.
Good luck and keep doing what you’re doing!
Cheers,
-Brandon
I can’t say that I haven’t seen this coming. There were stories around Rip’s leaving CF. Now they’ve kicked you out.
Add to that this new requirement to be CF Kids certified to train a minor. WTF mate?
I think HQ has been taking for granted the fact that so many blindly follow them. Now it may have backfired.
One of my favorite quotes is prophetic here I believe, “Rome wasn’t built in a day. It didn’t fall in one either.”
Robb, Very sorry to hear about your weekend. Ironically, this whole mess could have been avoided by… distinctive name(s) + superior training, business systems and culture on the part of HQ.
I will support you anyway I can. If you want to pre-sell copies of your book, to fund writing time, I am in.
Thank you and Nicki for everything you have done for me and my athletes.
Robb,
Shit! I was so looking forward to April’s cert. Now I can honestly say that I won’t be attending. I have chosen, because it is MY choice, Paleo over Zone. Agreeing that weighing shit food is just that! Paleo has given me the added performance edge I was looking for and I feel great. Not to mention I have gluten and lactose intolerance, both issues that Paleo addresses head on. Unlike Zone, which seemed to react reluctantly to such health issues but, ‘ho hum’ it had to.
I have never met Castro, but have heard that he is extremely abrasive and his first impressions have been downright lousy for those who have had, dare I say it, the ‘(dis)pleasure’ of meeting him.
Although I can only speak for myself, I know that Crossfit training has changed my life. Coupled with Paleo nutrition, I feel better at 40 than I did at 25. This household will continue to follow both plans and hope for the best as far as HQ is concerned.
I truly would hate to see it implode because of an elitist one track mind set. Sad to hear that it seems to be getting away from the foundation it was originally built upon and that is, bringing everything to the table, experimenting with open minds and seeing what worked.
Anyway, thank you for the Paleo approach. I know that it works for me.And I guess that if we are going to see you, we will have to make a trip to NorCal. I think that can be arranged.
Best,
Wendy C. Butler
Crossfit Las Vegas
LEO-LVMPD
so very unfortunate…i see this biting them in the ass at some point. thank you for continuing to share your knowledge with us.
By the way, I was at the seminar on Sunday in Atlanta. 1 week of gluten, dairy, alcohol free paleo and I’m down ~12 pounds. Feeling great, performing better, and my members keep asking me what I’m doing! They’re genuinely interested. Thanks buddy!
Adam-
That is amazing! it’s like this stuff works!!
I would definitely pay to participate in any sort of seminar you give, even if it’s not Crossfit sanctioned. It’s a shame that a few people are limiting the spread of important, effective, nutrition guidlines. If a bad relationship is holding things bad, then that relationship needs to be severed. CFHQ should realize there’s no room for selfishness in a fitness community and what they do effects us all. Thanks Robb, for having the integrity and drive to continue doing what you do, its very much appreciated.
Holidays seem to bring out the frustration in people, however it is no excuse to use foul and hurtful language.
I don’t know the details about the frustration among your colleagues, but even if it was a long time coming, the lack of professionalism for delivering your pink slip is just beyond rude. That kind hostility doesn’t need to be there at all. It just creates anxiety among everyone else. IT’S VERY UNPROFESSIONAL HQ!!! Even if Robb acted out in any sort of manner, it was because some dip shit was opening his mouth without his opinion being solicited. Who wants to hear someone’s rude opinion anyways? Here’s a lesson to learn HQ, if you’re advice isn’t solicited, keep your god damn mouth shut!!! There’s nothing more annoying to me than rude people who offer NOTHING except creating a bad environment for everyone else. I’d seriously rather get sucker punched in the face. At least that heals faster than hurt words.
And as for Mr. Castro’s stunt, well, not to side with him (because I’m not), there is one thing to take into consideration…yeah, he may have some issues with other affiliates, but have you ever noticed that people who have issues with others tend to have “jealousy” as the root of their problem? It’s something to think about. Perhaps Mr. Castro should take some courses in Personal Relations, perhaps you can lead the seminar on that, Robb.
So did you being relieved of duty for nutrition certs have anything to do with Mr. Castro’s emotional breakdown? You know they do have medication for that type of stuff because obviously, paleo….er excuse me….ZONE diet isn’t working for him.
Here’s my opinion final opinion…I’m more open to listen to someone who has a biochemistry background specializing in lipid metabolism than some Joe Schmoe off who got his degree from San Diego State in Nutrition. And honestly, all the skeptics out there I’ve been communicating with believe the same thing.
So I say good riddens then. I’m sure there are a lot of people who are really disappointed, and that’s the sad part, but there are bigger and better opportunities out there for you with more loyalty. You’ve won the hearts of the smaller people.
NOTE TO THE PUBLIC: I’m just a person who works out at Crossfit NorCal. I don’t have some fancy degree nor any financial interest in Crossfit. I’ve had the opportunity to attend Robb’s lectures and every time I’ve been more than impressed. Not everyone is going to agree with him, but some bit of respect should be given to someone who takes time out of his busy schedule to educated the public and community for free. I highly respect Robb and Nikki for having done this because it shows how much they do care about helping out the community. And although I may not understand how upper management works, I do understand when someone is being fucked over and I can’t stand injustice. Period!
This makes bad long-term business sense (setting aside the behavior).
If you aren’t willing to monitor affiliate quality, then you’re leaving yourself open to a different brand that uses similar fitness principles doing just that – and producing a better product for the user.
Why pretend that a generic WOD which does a good job of getting regular folks in good shape is THE way to prepare elite athletes for a specific event? Someone else will come along and develop better programming.
Why not try to keep a diversity of approaches under your brand and keep making money off all of them while taking the best from each and continually improving your “generic” product?
Marc-
this is exactly WHY HQ is terrified of all this. They have taken a position that they are infallible, that they are the arbiters of all the knowledge. They have painted themselves into a corner in that they cannot/will not modify the WOD. so, no one follows it now if they really want top level performance.
they have gotten in bed with Barry Sears in an attempt to counter the “paleo” message Welbourn and I have been sending. Ironically, when you get past Sears’ newest schtick, Molecularly Baked Crap, you have…the paleo diet. Only in a form that is sub-par to other approaches. An all this proven by people simply trying one method, then another. You really cannot control the truth but HQ tries in the same way a totalitarian regime does and things just speed through their fingers all the faster.
I had been waiting for some type of hammer to drop drom HQ but never expected it like this.
I was appalled at the LVL1 when they talked about zone and eating fast food. I have followed Greg and Robb for a while now and love the paleo, high intensity workouts. I am just sad Castro acted the way he did. Nothing about him has ever been professional.
keep it up Robb. As i say, real recognize real.
Can’t wait for your book
Hey Robb,
That’s some crazy shit. I’m not terribly surprised, but it’s a shame. Guess we’ll all see what happens.
I’m a programmer, and judging by other Open Source projects that have tried to go back to proprietary/overly controlling models, they’ll either return to their open roots, or someone will ‘fork’ the project and build their own using the same, or better, tools, or both. Either way, we (the fitness community) win in the end.
I’m looking forward to the book. Finish it dammit, so I can buy copies of it for my friends and family!
-Jeff
The crossfit message board thread that has been closed is here:
http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?p=700963
Robb,
Sorry to here what went down, i was waiting to hear what Coach Rut had to say about he summit. Well, CF really has lost another valuable asset, to bad!
Oh well, Keep up the good work on paleo, by the response on the blog you still have a VERY loyal following! Can’t wait for the book!
Robb, I just attended the seminar at CFmarina… and I agree that to be certifiable, we should have been tested on the material presented.
Robb,
I literally had to reread your title three or four times to make sure I was reading it correctly. I recently signed up for a nutrition cert at Brand X specifically to hear you speak. I will definitely be asking for my money back. I would be willing to travel to Chico to hear you speak if that’s what it takes. Sorry to hear that both you and Greg have been so blatantly disrespected.
Robb,
Thank you very much for sharing this information. In January 2009, I attended a CrossFit Level 1, then in October 2009 I attended MEBB at Catalyst, and last weekend I attended Rip’s Barbell. All of these seminars have contributed immensely to my current training. The information I learned looks more like CF HQ from the early days (Glassman in Santa Cruz, Eva T, Greg A, Jolie, Barber, Dutch, OPT, Starrett, Boz, YOU), and less like HQ today. I still read the CF Journal, and I believe there are some great athletes, coaches, and human beings in the community. Finally, the methodology of CF has been around for years. Elite strength and conditioning programs at the high school, collegiate, and professional level do short, intense workouts, they lift heavy, they run sprints (kind of like CF Football). CF has been able to translate this to the general population. Like most things in life, let’s develop a personal, individualized training approach using all the good resources we have. By the way, Rip’s “the man.” Rip is a real, personable, human being and he taught me to squat this weekend. I never saw Glassman at one of those seminars and he never taught me how to squat like Rip.
Listen-to-all-absorb-and-reject-and-be-respectful-Ben
So glad I hauled butt down to Bozeman to catch your seminar when I did! My previously metabolically deranged self is leaner, stronger and healthier for it. *sigh* Guess once your book is done and you start gallivanting around doing your own thang, I’ll have to sign up for that seminar too!
And, hey, while you may be off Dave Castro’s Christmas card list, you can at least console yourself with the knowledge that you’ve radically changed lives and improved the health outcomes of many, many people. 😀
Read your post. Got text’d midway through “Wow Read robbwolf.com”. Replied, “”was reading when u sent was going to txt u. Blown away. Holy Sh…but honestly not surprised…” rely text from friend “yeah, same here”
Not surprised because this is repeated behavior from CFHQ. Example idiotic video rant about Outside magazine, Gym Jones article BS, on and on. Just hate that all the incredible things that CF does like Operation Phoenix and has done for so many people are sullied by such poor behavior and decisions.
Peace be with you Robb.
Mike
Robb…just wanted to send a quick message of support. You have been a great influence on the community as evidenced by the response you have received thus far. I attended your seminar in Jacksonville back in May and truly enjoyed getting the meet and talk with you and Nikki. I will certainly continue to follow your blog and I look forward to reading your book when published. I’ll admit prior to reading this post I was not too satisfied with the CF HQ staff and was becoming skeptical of their operations. Now that I have read this post I’m even more infuriated. I look forward to some kind of public response from the HQ staff in the near future as their quick and irrational behavior needs to be addressed rather than swept under the rug.
Good to hear you will continue your nutrition lectures with additional info. We need a shirt for a show of support for you. I would buy one. I’m thinking “Robb is my Homeboy!”
Robb-
I’m sure you don’t remember me, but we briefly met at the Games this summer. I just wanted to write and say that if HQ is willing to let you go, it’s their loss. You are an excellent coach, and I hope to attend one of your lectures in the future, regardless of whether HQ attempts to mend fences or not. The time and effort you have spent in educating the CF community has made a world of difference, and I for one will continue to look to you for guidance and critique in the future.
Joe
CrossFit CLE
Joe- I remember you and thank you for the support.
Robb,
You taught me more than anyone else in the community. You’ll have no problems moving on and kicking ass. It’s unfortunate egos have to get in the way of people learning from incredibly knowledgeable people like you. Now you can move on unrestrained.
Cheers
Scott Kustes
I’m a 53 year old former fattie. I discovered CF a year and a half ago. I’m in the best shape of my life and getting better all the time. I have learned a lot from all the CF articles, affiliate blogs and videos. I also have linked to a lot of other sites, but CF pointed me to them. I can see why the CF model isn’t for everyone, but I hope that this does not become a good guy bad guy thing. I mostly CF, and play around with Zone, Paleo, CFSB, Black Box, trying to find a program that works for me. CF took it all online, and introduced us to a new model of fitness. It seems like something is getting out of hand, and I don’t pretend to know what is happening at HQ. I understand why Robb, Rip or others might leave CF, having outgrown the organization, but the trash talk seems petty. Many people like me will still benefit from CF. I don’t think the baby should be tossed out, even if the bathwater is a little poopie.
More to follow, but about to work with someone…
MAJOR QUESTION TO HQ… I am hosting the Robb Wolf Nutrition Cert on December 5th. Who is doing it? If it isn’t Robb Wolf, what will it cover? Will THEY be presenting information on paleo eating, intermittent fasting, hormonal responses, and the rest of information that people are wanting to hear?
If I have athletes wishing to opt out, do they get refunded the money?
Again, more to follow…
John-
It’s a great question and HQ has already been told they are NOT to use my copyrighted material in any subsequent cert. It took me MONTHS to prepare the material for the first cert, yours is in 2 weeks. I hope they have a hell of an expert on hand. They have contacted Cordain and he told them to pound sand.
It makes me sad.
Looking forward to the book!
I sent an e-mail to you Robb regarding this and it is a shame that this happened.
As a guy who is staring Strong Island CrossFit Strength and Conditioning (after years of working up to it) it sucks that you are no longer a part of the HQ plans.
Needless to say, I hope it works out for all parties concerned and our main focus is creating better athletes and a better way of life first and foremost, free of drama and egos.
CrossFit prides itself on leaving the ego at the door, some people forget that…
“What in the wide, wide world of sports is going on here?”
Damn, Robb! Sounds like the last scene from Blazing Saddles!
I wish I was smarter than you, Nicki, OPT, Dutch, Welbourn, Rut, Aimee and Greg combined. That’d really be something. What the hell is going on with HQ? They used to be OK…
I see only good things in your bright, fantastic future. We’d like to bring you out here for the Robb Wolf Nutrition Seminar in the spring.
Not sure if anyone else mentioned this already: Robb, have you considered providing a nutrition cert in a live/online forum? Maybe even a online nutrition/paleo education course? I would imagine that you could cast a pretty large net and catch all of us that find it difficult/expensive to travel to seminar destination.
Heidi-
We have had in the works something along this line with Paleo Brands. this will be quite different from what we will do in a day long or multi-day seminar.
Robb,
I thought you did an excellent job at your recent nutrition cert in Woodinville, where I’ll vouch that you did NOT bash the Zone but merely stated your preference for Paleo. In 2005 at my second Crossfit cert a rousing nutrition talk from Nicole convinced my girlfriend and I to go all gung-ho on trying weigh-and-measure Zone. We had undesirable results. Since then I’ve had better results with unmeasured Paleo approach that kept some Zone principles in mind. That said, I still believe the Zone is a superior diet over all others EXCEPT Paleo.
I’ve also had concerns for some time now about the implementation of the Crossfit certs (now called the Level I & II certs) and how they have changed since Glassman was the main speaker, specifically the introduction of the Nine Foundational Movements. The Nine needs serious review by the Subject Matter Experts (SMEs) but as things are today it probably won’t get it. Some of the Nine need to be dropped, different movementes should be added, others need to taught differently. I know several highly respected Crossfit coaches and SMEs who don’t particularly like some of the Nine movements and yet won’t express their reservations to HQ because of fear of backlash exactly like this.
To even REVIEW the Nine and the way nutrition is taught will mean that whoever set up the current system will need to check their ego at the door. Could that person be the head of training?
I will continue to support folks like you, Greg E, Dan John, AND Crossfit principles to the best of my abilities despite the conflicts. I wish for success for all my friends in the high-level training community.
regards,
Lincoln
Wow, when I told my sister, shortly after your last Nutrition cert., that you were going to out grow CF, I never dreamed it would happen this fast.
We can thank Dave for opening that door.
We look forward to your book and were ready to host a “Robb Wolf Nutrition Seminar”. Let us know when you’re ready to head South again.
Thank you for the excellent instruction, entertainment and abundance of knowledge you share during the cert. You have a great gift and will have continued success. It is unfortunate HQ is losing such a valuable person.
– If we didn’t attend the Summit is there a way to hear Nicki’s portion on branding?
Robb,
I have been CrossFitting for about a year, and I was going to sign up for one of the nutrition certs next year, but will no longer do so now that I know you won’t be there. I saw that BrianPCF invited you to my box, Potomac CrossFit, to give one of your talks. I would sign up in a heartbeat, and know a LOT of other people who would, too. Keep doing the excellent work that you do, and everything else will work itself out.
Katie
Robb,
Regarding this statement you made, “In their mind we would have less credibility if we are no longer an affiliate.”
This is where CrossFit HQ sort of has people by the balls who are affiliates and enjoy the community. I think the CF community as a whole is awesome. The problem to me is exactly what you mentioned as to why you probably won’t de-affiliate, and that’s because people want to participate in community events (i.e. The CrossFit Games), and because CrossFit has made itself synonymous with elite fitness, while making everything else seem sub-standard…which of course is not true.
The problem is that because HQ owns the CrossFit name it essentially owns the community and can somewhat bend it to its will. And I want to make things clear, I don’t think HQ is evil or anything, but a reasonable person who thinks for his/herself cannot continue to hear these sorts of stories about HQ representatives and the founder of CrossFit and think that they are never in the wrong (even though they always claim to never be in the wrong).
It just kind of sucks right now because the community is sort of owned by HQ, since HQ owns the CrossFit name, and that is the name that the community is united under. However the reality is that so many people in the community are not even doing a “CrossFit” program anymore (i.e. MEBB, Catalyst Athletics, OPT, etc). The community has grown. It is truly more than CrossFit now. It is not right that HQ and CrossFit try to claim everything that evolves out of their program. I think recognition and proper credit should be given to what CrossFit has done, which is a lot, but it seems that HQ has sort of stopped caring about improving and evolving the program for the time being.
I want the community to stay as it is, and continue to grown, evolve, learn and adapt…because that is what it has always been doing. That’s why there was a Black Box Summit and other think-tanks like it. But the community needs to be under a truly “open-source” entity, not an affiliate system that requires monetary involvement to be a part of (even though CrossFit HQ has every right license itself as it has done, and I have no problem with that business approach).
Ed-
As I think about it more…and the moral implications of being associated with these people I will really need to think about continued affiliation. And participation in the games. We may need to put on our own gig in chico or a nearby location. I have a lot to think about but continued affiliate with a morally bankrupt organization may not be possible, regardless of what my athletes desires might be.
SD_Mikey, to my knowledge CF follows no license, but just calls itself open source. I think Greg Glassman’s definition of what constitutes Open Source is a bit different from the rest of the World’s, as I recall him saying a few years back (on the now defunct CrossFit Radio) that programming would always be done his way. So I’m unsurprised in the least that posts have been deleted on the mainsite and the one thread pertaining to this topic has been locked on the message board.
I was looking for an excuse to stop posting on the CF board (which has begun to resemble a sort of Facebook for Fitness in the past few years), now I have it.
I’ll be renewing my sub to the PM, and look forward to the new book, Robb.
Please post this one…. I didn’t proof the last one before posting. Sorry!!
I value CrossFit, for what it has done to show that no matter what fitness level you start at, you can start on the road to fitness and achieve it. And for what it has done to change and revilalize the fitness industry. I highly hold the basic premise of CF dear, and love it. Every workout will be better than you, you will be humbled by it, and you are competing against yourself to better yourself.
We’ve been following CF for over 5 years now, as a family. One of the things I love the most is the community Most of the people I come into contact with either in person, via reading other blogs, etc have been nothing but professional, encouraging, and open to at least consider ideas different from their own, and respectfully dissagree if they do.
I would really hate it if a few people, leaders or not, acting in this way would make people think negatively of CrossFit. I really hope that CF HQ and the people on staff there would remember that they were once the ones with the differing ideas, and their ideas have worked for a certain niche of the fitness population, but not for everyone.
As affiliate owners, Robb and Nicki, it is your duty to share what worked for your clients, even if it is a little different from HQ philosophy or official stance. Just like the workouts, nutrition needs to be modified for each and every person.
That being said.
I am tired of watching videos or listening to the radio podcasts with cursing in them (Sorry I’ve got kids, we homeshool, and they are within earshot most of the time). I am sick and of tired of the bickering I see on the comments. I am tired of the arrogant attitudes I see with some of the leaders when asked a question, I am tired of the unprofessional-ism exhibited by some of the newer HQ trainers and affiliates.
And if this is behaviour I am to expect from HQ trainers and leadership, then we are most likely not going to attend another cert and most unlikely to affiliate when we too open a box.
I am saying this merely a wife of a level 1 trainer.
We are here to get stronger and healthier, help others do the same, but not to be cute or popular.
Robb, this is terrible! I was going to be signing up for a Nutrition Cert but no longer. I hope you can either get this resolved or do a cert on your own! I’ve heard many good things about you and your certs and it just wouldn’t feel right going to anybody but the best!
Good luck to you and keep us all posted
Having just recently attended a Nutrition cert with Mat and Bobbi, I have to say thank you for the knowledge and perspective you bring to the community at large.
On the subject at hand, being a relatively intelligent, independent thinker, I have a hard time subscribing to any single principle, especially one that is crammed down my throat. More and more, I’ve seen CF adopting practices and behaviors that might be likened to organized religion (or a cult, if you will). Let me just say that we’re fortunate that this cult practices expulsion of those that oppose the position(s) of it’s idols, rather than execution. Robb, be thankful you got away with your life (and soul) intact! Keep up the good work!
PS: Caveman didn’t count his almonds and weigh his mastodon! I suppose the anti-paleo position by ‘zoners’ is much like that of the church dismissing evolution!
Robb,
I am sorry to hear that Dave and company could not conduct themselves in a professional manner. But I am not surprised. It has been my view for sometime now that they are running Crossfit into the ground, which is sad because Crossfit had a lot to offer.
I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.
Duke
P.S. For Dave, Tony and other from Crossfit HQ that may read this post, Robb does not know me, and I do not know Robb. But I have watched and read Robb for sometime now and have tremendous respect for him, as do most in the CrossFit community who care about fitness and nutrition. I no longer bother longing onto Crossfit.com, but have and will continue to follow the cream of the crop that you have chosen to distance yourselves from.
Robb! This is complete Crap! My boyfriend and I are flying from Denver to NC to take your class next weekend, we are writing a letter to HQ that we want our money back and that we are very disappointed in this decision. We paid to see you! A friend and coach at CC told me there is a free seminar in Chico being offered if we paid for a cert? where do we find this info?
I don’t post, but follow your blog, certainly saw this coming and am saddened by it. I am L1 certified (would never ever train another human) and was motivated by the RRG talk. I asked several questions on the affiliate blog and did not receive very many answers and finally it was posted that my and other peoples questions did not need answered because we were not affiliate owners. (giggle) That’s just funny to me, btw I still bought into it, but wonder where the money is too?
Robb I will continue to support and follow your blog and buy your book. Good luck in all you are doing and thanks for the open and honest dialog about this.
Trish
They contacted Cordain to take over the seminar????????? WHAT! This isn’t even making sense considering their stance on the “bullshit” science around our pseudo diet. I can only imagine what kind of entertaining day your having Robb. Traffic on your site is nuts…loading it is like having dial-up again minus the annoying sounds. It will be very entertaining watching the next 48hrs unfold!
Sometimes there can be only one king. Anyone else involved who’s stature in the community rises high enough threatens the brilliance of the leader. Others, whether Gym Jones working with celebrities, Rip actually answering all the questions in his own forum (!), or you, Robb, effecting at least a little positive change in everyone exposed to your work, and tremendous change in more & more every day, start to share the stage and must be either contained or expelled. Classic leadership insecurity. I always liked CF because I believed that it was constantly evolving and receptive to change. The answer in the Forums even used to be “black box it and let us know what happens!” Now, its usually just “shut up, Coach knows best”. Unfortunate.
As for your athletes competing in the games… surely a competition for the “World’s Fittest Man & Woman” couldn’t admit to limiting entrants to affiliated athletes, could it? That would mean the games were really only to find the “World’s Fittest Crossfitters”. 😉
Dear Robb,
While I am sad that your relationship with crossfit had to end this way, I think it may be for the best. While I am still young, only 19, I started crossfitting in early 2003 with my dad. I did that for a while, but soon turned to olympic lifting full time, and now follow many things(SS/CFFB) with O-lifting as my main goal.
I first became annoyed with crossfit, and there way of handling things, when the Dan John and Mark Twight cases surfaced, and soon stopped reading almost anything to do with crossfit, as I just was not interested in how they operated. It was truly sad to see Rip start to have problems with management, and that was when I lost all hope in crossfit.
I have been following your blog and ideas for a long time, and just LOVE everything you have to say. I think you and many of the other crossfit castaways are WAY smarter/experienced than those guys back at HQ, and are actually willing to evolve your ideas if the evidence is presented. In fact, your blog and all your articles have turned me into a young aspiring Biology major/chem minor, and I some day hope to have as prolific a career as yours, in the same nutrition/performance realm.
I know this was a long post, and some of the ideas may not have come off as well as I had hoped, but I just want to end by saying keep doing what your doing, your extremely intelligent and really trying to help people. Thank you
There is lots of support for Robb on this blog and with the Crossfit community. Beside making comments here everyone should also let Crossfit HQ. hear you voice. If enough people complain they will have to do something about. People have to stick together, tell your friends, and let Crossfit hq know how you all feel. Don’t complain on this board and keep happily spending yours dollars at Crossfit seminars, boycott them.
Robb –
One of the things that impressed me about you has been how your nutrition info and view has changed with new data. I know you espoused IF for a while and were the IF guru and I believe you were originally thinking about an IF book. You were well-positioned to be the nation’s expert when it came to IF relating to performance and health. Then when the data started to be more muddled and to show that IF on its own wasn’t consistently positive, you were candid about the results and you changed your focus to be more on paleo. You could have ignored the evidence and tried to shout down those who questioned it. Instead you updated your message and focused on what works.
The stuff with HQ and the zone and randomized programming reminds me of a quote:
“When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?”
Robb, upset to hear about what they have done. Sounds like a great opportunity for the entrepreneur. You, John and Cordain can branch off on your own and deal directly with the affiliates and athletes. Sadly it always comes down to money, but the affiliates and athletes are the financial base under HQ. If I know anything about the crossfit athlete is that they won’t put up with crap. I am very curious to see how the plan on run the Nutrition Cert next week in NC which I signed up specifically to come to your lecture.
Wow! Nutz! Come to NYC and let’s grab a coffee. That’s crazy.
Robb – I hate that it came down to this. You are an amazing resource and inspiration to the community. Keep on doing what you do, we all appreciate it!
Hey Robb.
As a longtime CF’er I would like to say I’m surprised. But I’m not. I’ve seen this coming some day. The HQ antics always bothered me, and now with all the money involved, people start showing their true faces.
Its getting to be quite a list of people on the wrong side of the fence now…
When are you coming to Sweden? House, food, beer, on me.
mrjling/Jonas
Sweden in the Summer. Still coming!
Robb,
one question, do you know if HQ reserves the right to change instructors or not? The terms and conditions under which we paid? I seriously want my money back, but am also intrigued to see what they come up with for next weekend. If I figure this out I will let you know. As far as I am concerned, the CF nutrition cert wasn’t a CF branded cert, it was Yours. People go to be taught by you and they associate the “certs” with you. I am seeing more and more ” I was gonna do it but now I am nots” all over twitter.
Lauren-
they have NO provisions for this in their terms and conditions. As far as I an tell this looks like not only a remarkably unprofessional act, it might be a massive breach of contract between the attendees and CF.com
The moral implications of being associated with these people is the reason why I stopped attending the affilate I used to train at. Part of my (extremely high) monthly fee went to CFHQ in the form of the affiliate’s franchise fee, and I couldn’t stand it any longer. If the affiliate would disaffilate, I’d go back.
My, Brother… You are loved!
Bmack-
thanks dude. Mucho appreciated.
Robb,
So sorry and shocked to hear about all of this. I’m glad I got to see you at a cert (Bozeman) while I could. I wouldn’t be attending if it were somebody else teaching. I’d be pissed I spent $195 and then got a substitute teacher.
You have changed many lives, and since attending your cert, we have changed many lives of the people at our gym. It’s unbelievable. Thank you so much for your commitment to the community.
Take care.
Uggghh.
Clearly a large gap has developed between the practices of the thinking CrossFitters and what HQ prescribes and certain dogmatists find this threatening. Paleo has largely taken over and strength-biased versions are widely recognised as the way to go. This is despite the fact that HQ is extremely reluctant to even discuss these approaches. The rare time they do, there is an appeal to “data” although it is never provided. Minor league stuff.
The thing is, I personally don’t even know anyone who “Zones” any more (I assume Castro does but it doesn’t seem to be doing much for his “hormonal balance”). A quick glance at the CF message board (nutrition section) shows that the “P-word” is dominant. The PM forum has separate sections for Paleo and Zone – Paleo: 3,355 posts; Zone 458 posts (that’s data, HQ). And look how many threads there are on SS and similar on the CF board (fitness section). They are overwhelming.
It’s also true of top level athletes. Basically every competitor at the Games that revealed their training was doing some kind of strength-biased program (or they came from that kind of background), as did the best performers in the affiliate cup. And none of them zoned. Of course, whenever a competitor mentioned doing the mainpage this was celebrated – even after it came apparent that they did extra (strength) work and only used the mainpage for the metcons.
Clearly HQ has a hearing problem. The experience of the CF luminaries who try to improve CF is that HQ doesn’t listen – won’t even discuss it, beyond “this is how do it” and “we have data”. This is apparently a major reason why Rip left. Official CrossFit is barely different from five years ago. Are we supposed to believe that CrossFit just nailed it straight away and no improvements can be made? Clearly a lot of independent people – I mean, “haters” – think otherwise.
I don’t think HQ understands the level of dissent. This is due to their delusion no doubt but also in the way they ensure that criticism can’t be heard. The heavy censorship and rampant spin-doctoring is near-Stalinist. The message board is the worst – interesting discussion is largely prohibited. It is always on the grounds that “it won’t be civil”. Yeah right. Even threads that display minor dissent are locked, nuked before you can say “Lynne Pitts has heavier hands than Andre the Giant”.
Even Greg Glassman has said as much, although naturally he doesn’t intervene or get rid of her. Stalin did the same, sat back and fake-protested the authoritarian methods of the Soviet State but did nothing to prevent it. Glassman talks a big game about openness, debate etc, but he is a bit too clever to hire mediocrites and bureaucrats by coincidence. News flash “Coach”: you’re in charge, if you don’t like it it’s your responsibility to change it. I mean really, Budding is the media guy (I think), Pitts is “moderator” and Castro is training director. Can anyone think of three more inappropriate people?
There is little motivation to offer criticism in official places. Why bother – it will just get deleted, and you will be made persona non grata. There is much to benefit from by being part of CrossFit so many have decided it’s best to keep their heads down. This just serves to reinforce the idea in the minds of HQ that all is swell and the few that do dissent are “haters”. And the kool-aid drinkers agree.
That CrossFit shares characteristics with totalitarian regimes is all too apparent. But totalitarian regimes always stagnate and decay. CrossFit is stuck in 2004 while the rest of us are in 2009. You cannot compete with the free exchange of ideas and you cannot police the whole internet (sorry Lynne). The truth tends to win out in the end.
Lastly, Robb, I’m sure you’ve had to deal with a lot of stress but I think you have every reason to feel good about yourself. And as you can see, everyone is on your side. Apart from Tony Budding (hilarious comment by the way) that is, but I’m sure you’ll get over it.
Cheers.
Seb-
LOL! amazing post. I’m very happy Tony was one of the first people to post on this and the content is classic considering what he does daily. Interestingly, no other comments from HQ. I’ll OK anything that comes across my board.
Robb, you’ve always be very gracious with information and have given so much of your time to explain your take on a variety of topics from nutrition to performance to business sense. I support you 100% and this entire saga is definitely CrossFit’s loss, not yours.
Robb,
You have my utmost respect and I appreciate the immense amount of helpful knowledge you have disseminated. I have benefitted greatly from your blog and posts. I look forward to attending your seminars and reading your books, with or without Crossfit association. I am truly disappointed to learn of the arrogance and condescension with which Crossfit would treat its “experts.” It is truly a loss for CF, I hope Glassman can recognize he has the wrong people running his organization. Keep up the good work!
WOW…they not alone sacked Robb..they jacked the cert price to $249? Whats going on in the world of HQ?
Robb,
Great article and great presentation in ATL. I support your stance and appreciate man’n up. I am glad that I got into your presentation when I did, it was outstanding and has changed my life. I am already leaner, more energized and of course, a little lighter in the pocketbook. Damn, this food is expensive, but the price to pay for health.
I am going to maintain my affiliation and continue to gain knowledge from all types of sources. With that being said, if you go out on your own I (SPC CrossFit) would like to be one of the first stops on your presentation circuit. I am on the CF wait list, but we would really like to have you present. If you come to our area (Cleveland) it would sell out immediately, guaranteed. Anyways, best of luck and keep changing lives.
Here’s what I know: Robb Wolf is a genius and what he says works. I have listened and completed “everything” Robb has asked me to do, both nutritionally and physically. As a result I have dropped from 217lbs to a muscled up 195; from a 38″ waist to a 34″ within less than a 60 day period in-addition to reducing my BMI from 34% to 22%. I can easily run over a mile each morning where before I could barely walk to my mailbox without losing my breath. Now I am poised to take on a World Record.
When Robb talks, I listen; you should too.
–Lou Mars Professional Drummer
Holy SH** Rob!!!! What a load of CRAP. I was at your first nutrition cert in Chico. You are a gift to the community. I have no doubts you’ll land on your feet, but what a grave mistake for HQ.
As a member at Norcal Strength and Conditioning this is really a win/win for me. Not only will you be finishing your book sooner, but now instead of gallivanting all over the country we will hopefully see you and Nicki around the gym more. Not only is Robb’s nutrition knowledge outstanding, but both he and Nicki are outstanding coaches, and the entire membership will benefit from their increased presence=)
On a more serious note I think that it is tragic that this occurred. The summit was a chance for highly respected coaches, athletes and affiliate owners to share their knowledge and experience with other affiliate owners on how to increase their level of success. With such little support coming down from on high about how to successfully operate a business or an affiliate, here was an opportunity affiliates to get better by learning from their peers that have experienced the ups and downs of running a business and the challenge of making it into a success. It is an opportunity for those that have “been there” to help others build successful affiliates and increase the level of excellence throughout the entire Crossfit community. This is something that should have been celebrated by HQ, as it could only have a positive effect on the brand overall as affiliates enacted what they learned and become more successful because if it. But instead it was drug through the mud. All because a few people couldn’t check their egos at the door. So instead of the advancement of excellence, we get cock-blocked by a few knuckleheads, and ultimately the entire community suffers because of it. Hopefully you will continue with the summits, and hopefully you will still receive the support you deserve from those affiliates that want to improve their athletes, regardless of if you are CFHQ backed or not.
Either way you will still be getting my wife and I’s money (really my wifes=( ), regardless of whether you have Crossfit in the name or not.
dave does own a affilate crossfitranch and you guys will be treated with respect by the castro family have a great day
Good to know Kenny, thanks.
Robb –
Sorry to hear about this, it’s unfortunate. I love the blog, keep it up. I love Crossfit for the ideas it has brought to the table as well as what it has done for me personally. Stuff like this (what little I’ve been exposed to) has bothered me for a while. But this is unacceptable and does a disservice to the incredible potential value Crossfit can and should provide. Jeez, can’t we all just act like adults?
I dropped my affiliation in 2007 over allot of the BS going on. I trully love the bulk of the community, but I can not stand to be in the same room as Castro and Butting. You, Coach B., Rip, John welbourne, Dan John, OPT, Thiel, Lowery are all such monsters in the field that I stayed around and went to some specialty certs because the info was so solid. Booked NC nutrition 100% because I do not have a good grasp on IF and Paleo. I want a refund. If you are ever doing anything on the East please post as I would love to host, or attend. I honesthy think the group at the Black Box is some of the best in all of fitness. I would pay $1000 to get schooled from any of you alone. Rutt stays in Kansas too much and allot of West Coast dudes. I think that this was the direction that CF needed to go in, to follow true leaders with freat data, not mindlesly quote old CFJ info. Rob you are IT in the nutrition field!
This is really shameful behavior. As far as the whole of the crossfit community, there is no one I respect more than Rip and, of course, you Robb. I hope you can perhaps get a lecture/seminar going for this – I really wanted to attend a future cert. Any way, best of luck and I look forward to purchasing your book.
Your blog, affiliate and certification seminar are truly a shining example of what fitness and nutrition coaches should strive to become. Thank you for all you have done for the multitudes of people you teach, both in person and via your internet writings. Loved your Cert (Brooklyn 2008) and looking forward to your book.
I married at 36 and had a daughter at 39. I anticipate living a more active, longer life, God willing, thanks to your teaching. I will have a longer time with my wife and daughter because of your work.
If that’s not making a difference…
Thanks Rob.
Robb,
I have no inside information outside of what you have provided, and it certainly sounds like Dave indulged himself in a first rate public tantrum. I won’t defend him, without more knowledge.
Nor will I dispute that you are knowledgable, experienced, and a great athlete. You are all of those things, beyond a shadow of a doubt.
At the same time, I suspect there is a larger context. There always has been, where I have been in the loop. For example, in my understanding Mark Twight was going around certifying people in CrossFit, by name, without getting permission. Coach Glassman found out when Mark called him and asked for official certificates. That from Coach’s mouth, and I don’t think he’ll mind me sharing that in this context.
Mark’s a great athlete, but that isn’t kosher. That he got his CrossFittish ideas from Coach Glassman is, as you know, really beyond debate. Prior to his introduction to CrossFit he was doing pretty standard endurance training. That Greg would choose not to endure a lengthy litigation for a paltry sum of money is understandable. Twight isn’t using the CrossFit name, and intellectual property lawsuits are notoriously slippery. He does his thing, and we do our thing.
Since we are clearing the air, I have to ask: why did you leave the first time? I’ve never seen it discussed.
Barry-
If Mark did something wrong, they should sue him. Period. As an affiliate owner we had to almost threaten HQ with a trademark infringement in our own town. It was a guy who was a former trainer of the glassmans who, get this HAD AN ENORMOUS FALLING OUT WITH THE GLASSMANS! This guy was offering an open to the public certification in “Maximum Output CrossFit”. We were appalled and it took enormous effort to get them to do ANYTHING despite the fact this situation constituted a clear case of abandoned trademark on the part of CrossFit Inc. If you want I will forward you all the emails we had with CF legal to get this through. CrossFit Legal claims it is understaffed and has no resources. Yet Glassman brags about how much his Director of Training, Dave Castro makes. HQ does fuck-all to defend the brand and this started with not pursuing the issue with Twight. So that leaves one of two things (and i have heard some not great stuff myself…like the certs) but it boils down to either:
1-Twight did not steal anything
2-HQ is incompetent in defending the brand and setting a precedence in dissuading people from stealing. As an affiliate owner or prospective affiliate owner if there is inadequate brand protection there is nothing.
That’s that issue. The next issue you need to REALLY consider. Barry, i always liked you but I am still a little pissed at you and feel thrown under the bus when I left crossfit before. You thought it looked shady. What I was trying to do was exit with as little noise as possible so no one else in the community would be affected because if I had dumped what went down I feared what it would do to everyone. Barry, I left in protest for how Greg Glassman treated several people. I left in silent protest hoping to affect change at HQ. Glassman told people I left to join Mark Twight (I have people who would testify to this). And I kept my mouth shut because I knew THIS…this whole fracas would be the result and very possibly the destruction of crossfit. Now Barry, you need but to ask and I’ll do the full Hard-drive dump. All the dirty laundry will come out and at this point it is taking remarkable self control to not just do it. So, this is your call. Would you like to see all that content?
Rob,
In the US Navy, I served in two deployments overseas as well as a joint task force with the USCG. During that time I both saw and did things I was both very proud of and extremly disappointed with. After getting into CrossFit I was told that if I had any, ANY, nutritional and sleep questions to check out your blog and attend a cert as soon as I could get to it. I spent $1k on my Level 1 and felt I walked away with a pretty decent amount of knowledge. I spent about half for your cert and not only did you make the material easy for any military man to follow but you personally took time to answer a sleep question related to my PTSD which after implementing it I indeed had and still have many many nights of undisturbed rest. Both myself and the woman that sleeps beside me hoping I don’t wake up in screaming fit thank you. You are a true professional and I will continue learning from you and if ever there is a seminar/cert/presentation where you are a presenter I would gladly fly to(if needed) and happily pay for. Thanks for everything, stick to your guns and you are the F&&%# MAN!!
Wow, sorry to hear this is happening.
I totally support your work Robb. Zone + Paleo has transformed my health. For me both work as a brilliant combination. I am a small female who only works out 2 or 3 times a week, I need the the zone balance and portion control to keep my weight where I want it (slightly lower carb though), and blood sugar probs under control. I need the paleo for my auto-immune issues. As a nutritionist for CrossFit clients I would never knock either, but each person is individual and needs to find what works best for them – and I also need to be open to new ideas. Nutrition is an evolving science. The Zone diet was completely knocked by the nutrition establishment when Sears first introduced it.
Now mainstream dietitians that I heard rubbishing it 12 years ago write articles about how important glycemic load is and that you should have protein at each meal. Joslin diabetes Institute recommends Zone balance.
To keep clinging to any nutrition programme as the absolute truth does not move science forward.
In my practice as a Zone instructor – I saw early on that I did not have the impact on every client’s health as I would have wished. Gut issues were typical, for example. Autistic kids, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, auto-immune issues. So I kept learning and moving forward to try and solve more health problems.
A few years ago I went to a biomedical seminar about treatment for autistic spectrum kids- this started me off on the whole area of gluten and diary issues amongst other things, and I highly recommend these two books as an adjunct to Zone and Paleo:
“Healing the New Childhood Epidemics, autism, ADHD, Asthma, and Allergies” by Kenneth Bock MD
http://www.rhinebeckhealth.com/rhc/
and “Gut and Psychology Syndrome” by Dr Natasha Campbell McBride MD.
http://www.gutandpsychologysyndrome.com/gaps-book/
My introduction to Paleo through CrossFit when I started working there earlier this year has provided the tools I need to help so many more people. Plus the added benefit of helping my self, gave me a renewed passion for nutrition and it’s effect on health. And the results especially where health is concerned are outstanding. I now use Zone principals, plus Paleo plus selected supplements (always omega 3 and vitamin D).
To have clients tell me the feel so much more energy, sleep way more soundly, have health issues reduce or disappear, and fat fall off is just magic.
I have written to Dave Shrek at Barry Sears office and told him of my success with adding Paleo to the Zone diet. A couple of weeks later he posted this on his website.
http://www.zonediet.com/tabid/130/itemid/1207/Three-healthy-foods-that-are-not-so-healthy.aspx
Hidden in it “We are not genetically designed to consume grains.”
Interesting.
To me he said – “we’ll keep it in mind”. I do wish they would take it further.
I appreciate your thirst for nutrition knowledge and practice. I have learnt so much off your site, even after years of my own reading and a nutiriton and nursing degree.
When faced with clients your knowledge has really added to me being able to make a difference.
Hopefully you will make it out to New Zealand – I’d love you to do a Robb Wolf Nutrition Seminar here.
Looking forward to learning heaps more off you and reading your book!
Julianne
Julianne-
More amazing info, thanks girl! I have been invited to NZ. Will get that scheduled when the book is finished.
Robb
I just received an email from HQ saying the are moving the nutrition cert from your facility to Crossfit Redding. I replied asking for my money back, I will forward you their response.
Good luck in your new endeavors (whatever they may be), you are truely changing the lives of 1000’s of people.
Sean
Robb-
One more thing, if you still decide to do the seminar I am in. I would much rather give the $250 directly to you.
Sean
Sean-
We will see how many people are game for skipping the Redding gig and coming to chico. If it’s just you we can see if we can drink $250 of tequila while discussing nutrition.
What I don’t understand how ex-navy seal Castro ever got the position of “Director of Programming” in the first place?
If he programmed the 2009 games, that says a lot of what he knows about programming. It didn’t seem to me to be a “test of fitness” – it was just a brutal physical assault on the body (no, not the same thing). Not to mention it was scored RETARDEDLY and appeared to cut the field needlessly early.
From most of the videos I’ve seen of this guy, he does come across as quite aggressive and well, kind of stupid. As in not very intelligent.
What exactly is his relationship to the Glassmans? I guess they like his ranch.
RoyG-
this has been a long standing head-scratcher. Neither Dave nor Nicole Carrol had ANY experience training people, no education in anatomy or physiology…yet they were the standard-guards for the program? One cert someone asked Nicole if one should emphasize or de-emphasize the eccentric portion of the DL for hypertrophy. She had no idea what the guy was talking about. I’ll bet still does not. I was once more or less the 2nd in command behind the glassmans. I was moved out of that position and other folks into it because I asked too many questions.
CJ Martin of CF Invictus reminded me of a glassmanism: Never have a number 2 who is very bright. Otherwise you will not be able to steer their ambition and eventually they will turn on you. In Dave Castro, I believe Glass man succeeded.
Man, I keep expecting this to hit the Drudge Report any second.
Seriously, Robb, you contributions changed my, and my family’s, lives in amazing and unexpected ways. We love you so much. See you around, out there.
“Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds.”
-Einstein
Many people are threatened by change and new ideas. What I find so ironic, is that Crossfit, to me, was totally outside of the box (no pun intended) thinking as far as fitness and health. And check you ego outside the door? I guess this doesn’t apply to everyone….
I have attended a Level 1, Running, and recently Nutrition Cert in Edmonton this year, but will not attend any others after what you have written, Robb. After attending your cert, my health and life (and my husband’s) is so much better, and would LOVE to attend any seminar taught by you in the future. Kudos to you for doing what’s right, we will continue to follow your blog and support your work. Looking forward to the book!
I affiliated earlier this year and will not renew. I requested my link be removed from the affiliate page only a few months after I affiliated because I was alarmed by how business was conducted in forming the RRG. I realized I didn’t want to be associated with a company that used tactics, peer pressure, fear, etc., like those being used to promote the RRG. (All my comments are in the RRG thread in the Affiliate section of the CrossFit message board – the private affiliate board, not the blog.) At the time I didn’t have the money to participate, and frankly, I’m glad I didn’t. I have watched in amazement at the lack of accountability by the RRG staff in giving updates to those who contributed. This is highly unprofessional in my opinion. The unspoken message is when we have something to say, we will say it, otherwise, back the fuck off and leave us alone. When you take people’s money you should regularly provide updates. Of course a venture like the RRG takes time to establish and people should have patience with the process, but people also deserve accountability, frequent updates, and an explanation of what is happening with their money.
I am naive as hell. I’d wanted to believe that I found in CrossFit a group of people that embodied certain values that I shared. I’m a loner in general; I’d prefer not to be, but I don’t have much tolerance for a lot of BS so I’d much rather be alone than pretend to fit in or be someone I’m not. I was hopeful I found a community I could connect with; people who cared about learning, personal growth, and helping other people better their lives. I jumped in quickly (too quickly) because I was eager to form my own business doing something I believed in (I already was ACSM certified, and CrossFit, I thought, was a great way for me to grow a business). I wanted to learn as much as I could about different ways of training people; I had an open mind to all methods. I had the money at the time and figured I should take a chance while I could. I was interested in what worked even if it went against popular opinion and prevailing wisdom because I saw much wrong/questionable in that opinion/wisdom. My first introduction to CrossFit was through early Journal articles. I loved that CrossFit seemed scalable and for people of all ages, fitness levels and abilities. Then I joined the Message board and a whole different view of CrossFit began to emerge. That banner at the games cinched it for me. If that is solely where CrossFit’s value lies, CrossFit is not what I am seeking and is not what I value. I do think CrossFit gets some undeserved criticism. Frankly I don’t see what all the hoopla is over Pukie the clown. Who in the hell in their right mind would seriously have as a goal puking while or after working out? I never took that seriously and I don’t know if I am more amused or horrified that there are those that do. But then again I’ve got a twisted sense of humor, so not much offends me. I do find all that glorifying cut hands silly as hell.
To those who say affiliates should stay and try to improve things, I disagree. Affiliates may be in the business of CrossFit, but CrossFit is not the affiliates business. At the end of the day affiliates do not have control over their business. In the short time I have been involved with CrossFit two things happened that made me realize just how little control I’d have over my future affiliate. One, the fees were suddenly increased without prior warning, two, affiliates were suddenly limited to one box. I am sure there were a lot of affiliates budgeting for their affiliate fees and had in their business model future multiple boxes. Whether there are good/justifiable reasons or not for these sudden changes is irrelevant, the point is that these types of changes can be made without notice or affiliate input. As an affiliate you are subject to decisions completely outside your control. That is concerning to me and the ultimate potential risks are not worth the benefits.
There are a lot of good people involved in CrossFit, but there is a pervasive elitist bullying tone to the main site, affiliate site, journal, and RRG that I think could only persist if condoned by HQ. Reading the boards and responses to questions, seeing how dissent is handled, the way the RRG thing went down, this present situation, etc., helped reinforce my decision that being an affiliate is not for me. I did debate whether I should just stay affiliated and do my own thing like many affiliates do; it was pointed out to me that HQ doesn’t control how affiliates operate (in fact, can’t control it). But this felt disingenuous to me. Perhaps I am a bad business person as well as naive, but if I were to pour my heart and soul into a business I want to genuinely believe in what I am selling and the brand I am selling it under. There are many aspects of CrossFit that resonated deeply with me, but there were others that I could not accept or reconcile without feeling like I was selling out in some way. I also realized that if I did my own programming that there was no need to join the RRG since I would not be doing CrossFit; I concluded the best way to protect myself from a lawsuit as a CrossFit affiliate was to not be a CrossFit affiliate and avoid incurring the added risk. Kinda like the best way to protect against unintended pregnancy is to remain abstinent.
As for the community aspect, I don’t see it. I see much more infighting and snubbing than support. I was reached out to by two affiliates after my comments on the private affiliate section of the board concerning my dislike over the RRG money raising efforts, and I was grateful that they reached out to me. But that is not as common as one would think given all the community talk. A company that truly has the back of affiliates would not promote a business venture that is supposed to protect those affiliates by using language such as “sacrificial lamb.” That was such a turn off to me and completely unnecessary. That is divisive language and revealed a lot that I am unwilling to ignore.
When I affiliated I did so under a DBA since I wanted to protect myself and form a separate business identity in case CrossFit didn’t work out for some reason; I see that was recommended at the Summit and think that is excellent advise. I can see where that advice would be threatening, but it makes perfect sense from an affiliate perspective. Those who have hung their shingle soley on the CrossFit name have no choice but to tow the party line or lose all they have invested and/or be forced to reinvent their brand name. It becomes much harder to dissent the longer you are in and the more you have invested. That’s part of why I decided to admit to myself early I fucked up by affiliating and pull out before I had more to lose and before I invested more time and money. Someone recently on the private affiliate board was asking about why some affiliates fail and not renew. I considered sharing the reasons I won’t renew, but frankly, I’m done and don’t want to invest any more energy into stating my position on the CrossFit affiliate board. I do so here because I do want to share my view (perhaps vent a bit) and I think under the circumstances this is a better venue.
So I am out $2,000.00 ($1,000 for L1 and $1,000 affiliation fee), but I look at it as a hard business lesson in what not to do. It has also helped me clarify for myself the type of business associations I want and what I am willing to compromise on and what I’m not. It’s been a good exercise in discerning double standards/duplicity/denial and in watching various aspects of human nature in action. Live and learn.
Like everyone else, I am shocked and saddened by the news of a fallout. My question is: Where has civility gone? Why does it have to turn into an obscene shouting match? If there’s something to debate, then debate it! But let’s be respectful toward each other in the name of a healthy debate. That’s what bothers me the most about the way Dave Castro behaved in this situation. You will always be a huge influence on many of us in this fitness community and the contributions you’ve made are huge. You da man!
Robb,
I just wanted to offer my thanks and support for you. It was priceless spending time with you at the BBS this past weekend picking your brain on all of the technical nuances of nutrition. Your blog and the info you put out regularly has been an incredible help to all of us who value our health and the health of our clients. It’s truly HQ’s loss with your dismissal, but I know that you and Nicki will do nothing but thrive in the time to come. Keep up the great content, and if you ever wander down to San Antonio, you’re welcome to come throw around some weights anytime.
Mark-
Fantastic hanging out with you. When you get done with school you need to come hang in chico for a bit.
You did the right thing Robb. I know I don’t know you or haven’t posted before, but I follow your stuff and believe you and I are on the same page. Rock on brother.
More comments on this post then the current mainsite wod. Should show you something about the people behind you Robb. Thanks for all the information you have given on everything!
For anyone who is signed up for a nutrition cert in the future: Crossfit HQ seems to be refunding anyone who is upset that Robb will no longer be in charge of the nutrition certs. I just got a full refund. : )
Loni-
good to know, thanks for the information.
this is all very unfortunate. i thought dave castro was a navspecwar guy and i had a lot of respect for him for that. i have learned a lot from your blog and harp on my fellow cadets to eat quality food and not be psychotic about weighing and measuring. i hope coach comes out and personally addresses this situation, there is so much good that can come out of crossfit. perhaps it is time for crossfit to have its own “protestant revolution” so to speak. I look forward to reading your book.
Robb, I hope you will consider staying on as an affiliate.
You have made huge contributions to this community and you will be surely missed.
I also think you can still be part of the solution.
Reading your’s & Nicki’s blogs are some of the things that helped drive me to affiliation. When I first did your cert a year ago I had no plans to affiliate. Seeing all the great changes you have made in others lives is inspiring.
Please stay on and continue to help us to help others.
Well hell, I am signed up for a cert next weekend! I’ve e-mailed HQ about getting a refund because I signed up for this specifically because it was going to be you. I will be anxiously awaiting your book and looking forward to attending a nutrition seminar actually taught by YOU when you get back online with that.
This is all concerning to say the least. How on earth could any organization tolerate the actions and words of Dave Castro? There is no excuse. Tony, you should have come up with something better. In fact, why comment if you obvioulsy weren’t there to witness the events? As a trainer I have been taught to never stop learning and to be open minded to new ideas. HQ seeks professionals in every aspect of what we do yet will not let them teach outside of “the Master Plan?” HQ is becoming one huge letdown.
Hey Rob —
I’ve been reading your blog from day 1 and greatly respect the work you’re doing. I wish you every success and will be buying your book.
However, you knew full well what Glassman was like when the Twight/Dan John debacle went down. You and Greg went back into the fold to get on the Cert gravy train, and only left when you were publicly humiliated by Goering-lite. I understand why you did what you did, but you should have spoken out and taken a stand years ago.
Sameer-
I have to agree. I honestly do feel like I affected a TON of positives being in CF. Nearly every cert I did people would tell me about infertility issues resolving, reversing autoimmunity…all the folks chiming in here, so in fairness my efforts have helped a lot of people. It does not excuse me from associating with these people though. Not when I know all I know. In this you are right and I am guilty as charged. Speaking out would have resulted in my ejection from the program, but that was an inevitable thing anyway.
I appreciate the comment and take the kick to the chops.
CF HQ had better heed their own warning of Survival of the Fittest; it doesn’t just apply to affiliates…
I have seen video of Castro’s temper tantrums (any relative in Cuba?), have experienced the overly officious affiliate scrutiny of Lisbeth, and watched as prices have climbed for affiliation fees, certs, etc ($46 T-shirts? $30 water bottles? Prada and Gucci it is not, it is supposed to be functional workout wear and gear, not fashion accessories for Pete’s sake). And now we have the burden of CF Kids and a mandatory certification. Great business plan.
One would think the popularity of CF would have kept the prices in check (but apparently not the egos), but just the opposite has happened. Not a good trend at all.
Sadly, most affiliate coaches, me included, will not publicly take this issue on, as we would be treated as shabbily as you were, and become outcasts in our own community.
So props to you, brother, for standing tall. You’re a better man because of it.
haha, my post on the mainsite: “i love these, we need more MEBB like this” was censured out. seems that they dont even like a slight mention of a strength bias on their comments now
That is terrible behavior. I too find it funny that Tony Budding’s first reaction is “i wonder how long until it gets deleted.” If that isn’t indicative of a certain mindset.. I posted some questions a few weeks ago on crossfit.com and was censored. The “open source” claims are a joke. I’m so mad that I paid $1,000 for a level 1 cert. Honestly, I really didn’t learn much, but I was banking on the community evolving and growing and my being a part of it (thats where the multilevel marketing suspicions began to sneak in). That doesn’t look like it will happen now. I can say that everyone who has attended your cert, and I know many, has spoken very highly of it and you. Perhaps your site may evolve into a place which will be truly “open source” and not as fascist, i.e. not just nutrition but the whole of exercise. Like a wikipedia for exercise. Also, if anyone remembers my posts, and has any answers, that would be great too. Keep up the great work Robb, i will be buying your book. I’m going with Robb, to quote Larry David in Curb Your Enthusiasm.
Robb, I have the same sentiment as your supporters. I’m not sad to see you leave the CF Certification staff, but rather I’m sad to see such problems at CFHQ.
I’m the owner/blogger of the FRAT Paleo Challenge, and not only do we try to eat and perform better through Paleo and CrossFit.com WODs, but I also tend to use my own programming when it makes sense. What I do there is what was known as CrossFit. Now, I’m not so sure anymore. Not because I question my own lines of thinking, but rather I question my interpretation of what CrossFit (as an organization and what CF stands for) is.
Unfortunately, this ordeal has me thinking twice about being directly tied to the CrossFit name. I feel a bit betrayed by CFHQ.
Robb,
First of all, this sucks. There’s a huge community of people that love your work and will continue to love it, regardless of what CFHQ says or does. If anything, when it comes to nutrition, CFHQ has it backwards — ’twas YOU who gave THEM credibility — not the other way around.
Also, anyone who has watched “Every Second Counts” (which I enjoyed) has seen Dave Castro’s rude temper and lack of professionalism on film. It was so obvious in ESC that I went out of my way to explain to my wife, who has only been CrossFitting the past few months, that his behavior and attitude aren’t typical of most CF athletes and trainers.
Robb,
I shot you an email too. You’ve been so hopefully and open with your nutrition info and how you run NorCal. You have my utmost respect and I look forward to our continued relationship.
Chris Brown
Just wrapping up our second “Paleo Challenge” tomorrow. The first one resulted in the winner (Ryan Clark) shedding 7% body fat in 30 days. Ryan went on to set a huge PR on Fran at his Level 1 cert a few weeks ago (4:43).
Looking forward to the result tomorrow. Thanks for the information and help you have provided me, my family, and your growing local community.
Robb- I’m sorry that you’re going through this- but I imagine on some level you must feel relief.
Thank you for all that you’ve done, you’ve touched countless people- far more than you’ll ever know. You inspired the main site’s subculture FRAT to begin a Paleo Challenge that has changed the lives of all involved. Goat and I will continue to mine your site for info and gladly attend any seminars you put together. You have a real gift- thank you again.
PS- post rhabdo I’m now 100% better- renal tubules finally clear 🙂
Robb,
Things will work out in your favor due to your continual honesty and generosity to the CF community. I’m glad more people are seeing how ridiculous HQ actually is. I’ve always likened HQ’s authoritative attitude to the attitude I experience with the American Dietetic Association and it’s committed cronies: They’ve decided their stance on certain things, and REFUSE to budge regardless of valid evidence that opposes their position. Hang in there!
Wow, pathetic display from HQ. What can one say, Robb, you will be successful as you have a proven track record regardless of what the dorks at HQ say.
Why the hell is that asshole Castro in charge of anything? He doesn’t have a clue and has a HUGE ego. Same with Budding, his coaching videos in the CFJ are hilariously awful.
Robb;
I definitely feel for you. I think that from where you sit, things are extremely unfair. And I’m totally taken aback by how Dave acted. However, I’m not sure about the whole “moral implications” thing. The question I have is this: if you are conflicted about the morality of a continued affiliation to CF, is this because you think there are “bad” people running it, or that the people running it are doing something morally blameworthy.
Because if it is the former reason, that there are some shitty people in HQ, but the program is a good one, I don’t see the moral trouble with that. There are shitty people doing lots of things, but that doesn’t necessarily corrupt those endeavors. However, if you think Crossfit itself has become a lost cause, I’m wondering what in particular has gotten worse about it.
Maguid-
It’s the people, but that has also built into the programming. No evolution, no self analysis. But I’m mainly talking people.
Robb;
I had the opportunity to have dinner with you and Mat when you were here during the back to back cert’s in Boston, MA. I found you two to be wonderfully spoken, well read, and thoughtful individuals. Your certification seminar was by far one of the best one’s I’ve attended (your’s and Mr. Starrett’s seminar). Since your certification in June I have gone completely Paleo and have never felt better in my life.
Of anyone in the CF community, your knowledge and insight have made the biggest and most positive impact on my life. I have never felt better since doing what you preach on a consistent regular basis.
Thank you for what you do. Your success is a testament to how much you love what you do and how great at it you are. This is very upsetting and I hope that you come out of this a better coach and human being. Thanks again brother!
Robb, this story is unbelievable. You are truly one of the best trainers that I’ve ever met. I’ve personally benefitted enormously from your cert and your blog.
You are an extraordinary asset to the Crossfit community. If Crossfit HQ doesn’t change its position, it will be a huge loss for everyone.
When Coach Glassman spoke to over a thousand U.S. military officers at Ft. Leavenworth this year, he said that your cert was, in his opinion, the most important specialty cert a Crossfit athlete could attend. I agree with this and would add that your website and your submissions to the journal are further proof of your dedication and value to Crossfit.
You deserve much better treatment than this. Your contributions to the community can’t be measured. I’m sure I’m one of many that can say that my life has been changed for the better because of your efforts.
For what its worth, I’ll continue to support you and your excellent work, with our without Crossfit. I’m embarrassed and angry that Crossfit HQ would treat its best in this way.
Robb, If it works better, than why not do it that way. You are loved by many. Keep up all the good work brother.
Hey Robb,
I attended your cert in Woodinville, WA back in the summer, and have followed the blog ever since. Thank you for all that you do.
Hey Robb you don’t have to post the comment I’m about to make, but it made me chuckle.
It was good. I posted it for a minute clay.
Please start your own Nutrition Curcuit! I’ll be in attendance at the first one!
Well, Robb. I know from experiencing the very start of your Crossfit Career in Chico, that you were going to be gold. After reading that, I am almost in awe that they would allow someone who conducts themselves in such a manner to even work at any-sort of company. Your a great guy, who has taught me many things that have made my life better. Don’t let this get you down, you are and always will be an icon in my eyes in the world of true fitness.
I remember you once said to me “We put the fit back in fitness”, the idea stuck with me.
You’re a great guy, don’t let this get you down.
Robb,
Good to see you back in the reality-based community.
Too bad it had to go down like this.
I’ve told you before, that Tony is a serious piece of work. I’ve never experienced a person be so sociopathic in their business dealings, so quickly… most loonies can keep a lid on it for at least two or three emails, but this guy was flat out bananas.
I’ve never had the chance to personally interact with Castro, but I will never forget a conversation that I overheard between him and Glassman, when I took my Level 1…. many moons ago. It had to do with Iraqi insurgents, and comparing them to cockroaches… It was so disturbing that I thought for sure I had heard wrong. A few years of paying attention to Glassman’s whacked-out ramblings on politics and foreign affairs confirmed it, though.
I am SOOOO glad I had to give up my CrossFit gym… Being out of the cult has been really good for me, and I’m sure it will be good for you.
Welcome back to the dark side!
hate to see the family fights get so public (not your blog post. the seminar drama). i’m a fan of yours. good luck in whatever you decide to do next. you’re too bright not to do well.
Robb, I was shocked to read your recent blog, not just from the sheer lack of professionalism that you encountered, but also for the economic fallacies within what was discussed at the Black Box Summit. While I am not an expert in gym management, I have worked in sales and marketing for 8 years and have a MBA in Finance. The sole purpose of creating a brand is to build brand equity. Brand equity does not occur overnight; established brands such as Nike, Starbucks, and Mercedes were cultivated over years of consistent, solid business practices that were highly managed and cultivated. Take the Starbucks example, CEO Howard Schultz has been quoted as saying that he wants every customer to have the same customer experience whether you are at Starbucks in Seattle, WA or Dubai. The sole purpose of franchising from the franchisor standpoint is that they can grow rapidly, while keeping their brand integrity and equity, but not have to manage the day to day operations of each location. From the Franchisee standpoint, they get to automatically link with established brand equity. Think of the lines you saw outside Starbucks everywhere as they grew rapidly earlier this decade. The reason they beat the store next door was the consistency and the quality of their product. You knew what you were getting for $4 at Starbucks, whereas trying Local Joe’s did not have the same appeal. As Starbucks has announced wide store closures and has begun to reduce their operating costs, the same CEO Howard Shultz, admitted that they had lost their Starbucks customer experience. As they grew rapidly, they were unable to maintain the consistent standards that produced their brand quality. (There is Harvard Business Review Case Study on this and several articles about their brand equity).
My Crossfit experience has been good and I am truly blessed to have been coached by you, Greg Everitt, Mark Rippitoe, Rob McBee, Craig Parcells, and Scott Hagnas. You have independently established your brand equity, but have also benefited from the ties to Crossfit and its popularity. If Crossfit wants to survive in the fitness community, it will have to regulate quality both of its affiliates and its trainers. For example, all other fitness accreditation systems require recertification (while this alone won’t make them a better trainer as least there is check in place to regulate knowledge). As new information floods the marketplace, you can’t rely on trainers and affiliates are absorbing that knowledge and incorporating it appropriately into each facility. One valid business concern of all affiliates should be this lack of regulation. If anyone can start an affiliate and train athletes and it is not up to par, then it dilutes the overall brand equity of Crossfit. It may also turn someone off that could potential incorporate this type of training towards making meaningful fitness and diet changes in their life. As part of being an ‘open source’ community, we should value differences in opinion and challenge the status quo. This is how the brand gets better, maintains its integrity and equity, and ultimately, how the brand could thrive. One might say, well 24 Hour Fitness maintains some level of consistency from franchise to franchise and they are not growing at the same rate as Crossfit. For one, 24 Hour Fitness attracts a different client base than Crossfit and number two it is hard to argue with the membership these gyms have achieved; however their demise is more due to their inability to evolve and not hold high standards. In addition, to their high operating costs with the inability to charge more than a mere $25/month. The trainers at 24 Hour Fitness are more concerned with how many sessions you sign up for as opposed to the sincerity of getting people fit that I see in most Crossfit gyms. My point in all of this is that Crossfit has to regulate their business to maintain high standards or the overall brand suffers. This is a disservice to the men and women like yourself that help build value in the brand, only to have it torn down by someone who cannot hold the same training standard. There should be flexibility in how each facility brands itself, this helps encourage building your own brand equity; however, you suffer any time any affiliate does not maintain the same quality that a gym like NORCAL Strength and Conditioning does.
The other argument that there are many Starbucks in the same location is a poor comparison. For example, the classic franchise system gives business owner protection against competing against itself. This also allows the franchisor to charge a premium for this business protection. Since Crossfit is not a business of this same scale, it is difficult to even make an analogy. I do know in my personal experience having multiple affiliates in one location doesn’t necessarily help the athletes or the affiliate owners. Often it is someone that gets a little capital, slaps the Crossfit brand on their gym, and starts/continues training clients. The quality of their Crossfit and training knowledge is highly variable and inconsistent. If I had experienced Crossfit in a gym without a good trainer and system, then I could have very well tried out, never to walk into a facility again. This is the key potential danger with not regulating the gyms and having some geographic control. The brand suffers in the local market due to the potential variability and inconsistency.
If Crossfit wants to avoid the fate of Starbucks, Krispy Kreme, and a host of other failed franchises, then it will have to have better business practices that focus on keeping the brand equity. Instead the current business model looks more like a Ponzi scheme; we will take your money no matter the level of quality…just send the checks! More affiliates = more dollars…Short term gain, but poor long term strategy.
Bennett-
Hell of an analysis dude. and I cannot agree more.
Hey Robb,
Just wanted to add one more voice of support. My wife and I were lucky enough to have you as a level 1 instructor in Baltimore and attend your nutrition cert at Cherry Point AFB. You sat and talked with us for 35 minutes about the business side of fitness. We were on the cusp of joining the rush to affiliation and your advice was to take our time and experience everything. We have held off but, were planning on affiliating for the satrt of the new year. HQ’s response to this situation will play a big role in that decision. Thanks for all that you have done and continue to do.
Paul & Dawn
Robb,
The nutrition cert will not be the same with out you. Danny and I support you and the information you give. We appreciate all that you have done and are sad that things have turned out this way. We send you nothing but blessings and peace for your future.
Jordan and Danny
CFATM
Robb,
I’m a spectator and really have not contributed anything to the community as a whole. I’m not a smart guy and have basically leached from the main site forums since 2006 (and later, your blog). When I first started out, I was looking for an answer to my high cholesterol “problem.” I found CrossFit through the nutrition side of the house. I was eating vegan at the time because animal foods were causing my “problem.” Anyhow, for weeks I read your posts in the forum at the main site and decided to jump full Paleo soon after. I also started with the WODs.
In the years since, I’ve applied the information that I soaked from you and other “old school” forum members. All I can say is that it’s worked. As grandma used to say, “The results praise the man.” My results are largely a direct result of your knowledgeable and generous contributions. After almost four years of following the Paleo diet, I think I am “senior” enough to offer you praise.
Concerning the main site, I’ve been trying to talk my coworkers (cops) into making the switch. Slowly but surely, several friends started the main site WOD’s or some variation. While I am happy to see their fitness develop, I’ve been embarrassed by some of the developments in the forums, which I think are just shite at this point. The topics used to be interesting and full of information. I can’t say the same anymore. I saw the decline, your exit, and the exodus of the “old school” contributors. Very sad. Steven is still there swinging the bat and so is Jay C., but it’s gotten rough. I can’t get enough of those guys, but the general trend is crap. I think the trend is bleeding over into the business side of the house. Getting rid of Ripp and you is an example of extremely poor management.
One thing you pointed out years ago was the importance of having a strength base before taking on the main site WODs. I took into consideration your comments and used your “black box” idea for increasing strength last winter. The results were immediate (I used strength, metcon, strength, off). My benchmark WODs shot through the roof once I completed a six week cycle. Keeping with that idea, I’ve recently switched to CFFB and couldn’t be happier with the programming. Particularly the results of the workouts plus the Paleo diet. I’m CFFB + Paleo for good. F portions. I eat clean and chow like a horse. Results are praising the man again and the numbers are coming on strong.
Keep at it, Robb. My hopes are that HQ sees their error, admits, corrects, and moves forward. If not, you have a buttload of support from other leaches like me. We’ll keep supporting you no matter your affiliation.
Sully sends.
CF sucks. I have been against it for a long time. ignorant yet believe its all knowing. At onetime it was good, but CF is DEAD! CF Corporate lives!!!
I am a cross-training instructor, kettle bell cert. trainer (not CF certified), cert. Personal Trainer, Krav Maga instructor.
I do O-lifting, some basic gymnastics, parkour, KB, MMA, KM, CKM, Blauer, Wagner, run, climb, jump, hip hop dance, and I’m sick of people saying oh you do CrossFit just cause I push myself more then the people in the average gym setting. CF does me!
People, follow good nutrition! Follow good, hard, fast workouts! focus on technique and form! Do every kind of training you can, but you don’t have to be a “part of a bigger community”, seriously, you need friends? Family don’t like you? I have eaten clean since I was 19, gone in fitness comps, played sports, competed against others, myself and clocks! I don’t need to feel a part of the CF community or any other one. I like being a lone wolf in the fitness world, some come for the ride with me, others stare.
Robb, be happy. I don’t know you, don’t know much about you. Why did it take this long to see the shit that is CF for you? You seem to be a smart guy. Now that you’re not in CF, maybe one day I’ll have you come to my place and give a seminar.
I seek excellence, and want to be around/surrounded by excellence. That is one of the reasons I love following the information you put out. I am glad I got to attend your seminar last summer in Woodinville. However, I feel like the new Robb Wolf seminar will be better and I wish I had waited for it! I should have known…
I don’t personally know any of the parties involved. But as a guy that is not an affiliate, just by reading main site and some of the involved affiliate sites and resources for some time, it seems pretty clear to me who I would cast my lot with.
You da man, Robb! Keep up the good work.
The videos of you and Greg Everett have been chopped off to only be 4 minutes long, so everything that happened wasn’t shown. Bets on who helped edit those? *cough*Tony Budding*cough*
Robb
I keep hearing the word community in these posts and to us outside of CFHQ it is a community, but to CFHQ it is highly profitable business. Maybe CFHQ doesn’t want to franchise their business because it will make CFHQ have legal obligations to their affiliates?
By only offering affiliation, CFHQ gets it affiliates to feed the HQs cash w/o being obligated to help the affiliate. Sweet set up if you ask me and people wonder CFHQs crushes all dissent?
In other words, I think this business model is set up to make tons of money for the HQ at the expense of the affiliates.
Anyway, I can’t wait to buy your book and look forward any seminar you may hold outside of the so called CF Community .
Robb, sorry to hear about what had happened and at a summitt of all places. I read one of Gregg’s articles that ruffled some feathers, but I did agree with him on a couple of things. But, it is very unfortunate that everybody had to witness everything. I hope that your replacement is as good as you, but for now, I need to head over to the journal site and download all of your vids. Take care and the best of luck to you in your endeavors.
Wow, too bad Dave C is manifesting like this. I knew something dark was going on when Rip & Coach B. were not reviewing DQs with the judges at the 2009 Games … subject matter experts should be active advisors. Good Wisdom can take criticism, actually welcomes it.
We can be our best coach, or our worst enemy … our choice. (me)
“Ruin and recovering are both from within.” – Epictetus
“Every dictatorship has ultimately strangled in the web of repression it wove for its people, making mistakes that could not be corrected because criticism was prohibited.” – Robert F. Kennedy, 1925 – 1968
I can’t wait to see these videos.
I don’t see how any of this is surprising to anyone who paid any attention to CrossFit HQ in the past. I removed myself from the community over a year ago due to this type of hypocrisy and close-mindedness. Robb, you have the ability to do your thing without CrossFit’s “certs”. For that matter, I’m shocked anyone continues to affiliate with HQ as there is no benefit in doing so. A good trainer and facility can stand on their own and it makes no sense when you consider there is this “open market” garbage they continue to spew, and the fact that there is no continuity to most affiliates anyway.
I’m sure there will be many more people associated with CrossFit stepping down in the future and most of them will be better off because of it.
Two additional things: 1. I have e-mailed Greg Everett in the past and he was nothing but professional, friendly and helpful in every way. The guy’s a badass and the way he handled himself speaks volumes about him.
2. CrossFit didn’t invent this type of training, they just branded it. People have been doing most of this stuff forever…and the things they didn’t do was because they were ineffective and ridiculous in the first place.
Good for your Robb, let’s hope more follow your example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-BnqtIF7kY&feature=player_embedded
Thanks Britney. You have always been HAWT!
Robb…
Hate to hear about this but honestly not amazingly surprised. Met you in Atlanta, and it was great to pick up some of the science behind nutrition that makes sense when you look at it from any perspective. There is much to be said for being able to say what you want without censorship, especially when when the information is put out there to help people help themselves. Be well!
Well-
Bad news is Robb is not doing the certs any more. Good news is Robb will have more free time to provide us with comprehensive literature on his thoughts and more OPEN SOURCE thoughts on his blog.
P.S. Are Pringles 10 or 12 chips per block?
Nate
BTW
Guess what is the Number One Thread on the Nutrition CF forum?
Well it is “paleo change your life in 30 days” with 874 replies and 59,478 views and counting.
And the top zone thread, well I gave up after checking the top one hundred threads. Maybe the cream does rise to the top!!!
Steve- Everyone knows paleo is pseudo science. How can that be a top thread on the message board.
You guys are the greatest. With you all the way.
C&G Mac!!
Love you guys. Miss you guys.
awwww shit I hope a political schism doesn’t result in most of us having to make painful, sub-optimal choices between excellent sources.
Also, I now fear I’m going to have to pay more to attend YOUR nutrition cert. Like maybe I failed to get while the gettin’ was good. I hope that all your endeavors succeed so that you can continue to provide your nutrition certs, and life will keep just getting better and better for all of us!
Robb-
Where is your RRG money? Indeed.
I don’t care about all of the other stuff, but I take this as a personal attack on my integrity. Your welcome for the hours I spent running down the rogue person in Chico who you wanted to stop advertising CrossFit. Shall I just invoice you for the hours or was that okay for CF HQ to do on your behalf?
I have met with the Beazley Syndicate re-insurers from London last week to ensure we have authority to conduct our claims administration as we see fit for the RRG. We are waiting for Montana’s Department of Insurance to clear us to start issuing policies. Many of the other 50 states will drop within weeks of Montana’s license being issued. CF HQ paid for all of this upfront, despite the RRG being affiliate owned, with HQ providing its own fair sure of the funding for the RRG, as well.
Robb, whatever happened with you, Dave, and Greg – hey, I wasn’t there. You all have a history that precedes me, but my question is this – how much did you make as a result of CF providing you the nutrition gigs? Are you telling me you would have had such an audience but for CF? If you’re so above CF, then why don’t you give back every red cent you ever made on your nutrition certs and walk away? Do your own thing.
What I hear is a guy who wants to reap the benefits of the CF brand, but throw rocks at it from behind some wall of being “above it all”. You know exactly how to contact me because you had no problem doing so when you needed HQ’s legal help.
Dale-
I appreciate the update. More an attempt at humor, so sorry if that felt like a personal attack.
I made great money doing the CrossFit Nutrition Certs. I also made HQ a ton of money providing content and some of the best coaching they had in their whole organization. In the first couple of years I frequently answered upwards of 90% of the questions on the message boards and front page (easy to take a gander at and verify). Dozens of Level 1 certs I was introduced as “integral to the brand and a co-developer”. I feel I’ve added sufficient sweat-equity to the brand to justify the returns I’ve seen.
And Dale, this is a key thing to keep in mind here: I’ve NEVER been above CrossFit. I’ve helped thousands of people. On the day Dave was making an ass of himself I was researching how to help a girl who is prominent in the community…who has advanced melanoma. Yea, Dale, I’m above it all. What has happened is a running battle with HQ over standards and quality. They want NO input and repress attempts at change. So, if you can show me some example of how I’ve been above this community I served I’d love to see that. Just one example would be illustrative. Now if by profiting you mean that I have done other things besides crossfit it’s ironic that this is a problem but the Garage Gym and other entrepreneurial endeavors are not.
Dale-
if the RRG thing was a pot-shot I honestly apologize. And I AM grateful for the help with the ass-hat in chico. When all that was going down I was at it with Greg about him saying my work was psuedo science…I was so frustrated by that the trademark deal was just infuriating. If I mischaracterized that I’m sorry.
Robb, First off as i had previously talked to you today, we at Crossfit 4800 in Bozeman MT are 100% behind you. You have provided an invaluable service to the community and have been chucked under a bus by HQ beacause you had the balls to give your scientifically backed message. Dave Castro has done nothing but show his ass in this whole episode. (hey Dave have another rockstar and tell everyone how bad you are!.) I would expect more from someone that has served at his level. Also i am saddened to see people scared to reveal their affiliation. HQ are not gods, who cares they cannot take your birthday away folks!. We have dedcided to not renew our affiliation and will continue to train people as before and strive to be better without crossfit. It will work and we will excel. We will seek out advice and guidance from those that push the envelope and give unbiased information in the pursuit of exellence! We have chosen our side of the fence and will stand by it. I urge others to do so also.
Hey Robb – well, I have always maintained that our primary function as coaches is to be excellent communicators – regardless of the subject or the message… that you are. Your nutrition cert and paleo message you deliver to our community is tremendously valuable and I’m sure you’ll find a way to continue to deliver it (can’t keep the good shit held down or under). I look forward to seeing what comes out of you in this next chapter… and am truly sorry that things had to do down the way they did in Austin. My hope is that it will lead to some sort of communication breakthrough at CFHQ – for the sake of the entire CF community. In any case, you will land on both feet (you already have in my book)… keep on doin’ what you do – looking forward to great stuff from you in the months and years to come!
Andy-
thanks. It would be a miracle to get anywhere with HQ but I can always maintain a little hope. You guys run a kick-ass operation, always look to you for experience and guidance.
O’h man. Even though your counter point was excellent, what are you doing arguing with Barry Cooper. Your intelligence is light years beyond his. He isn’t worth your effort on typing. We all know the “left” made you do this…well at least Barry knows this. Like I said earlier… For a bunch of Libertarians they sure do have the Communist Dictator thing down pretty good. Thanks for all the life enriching info Robb!
WTF? Well I promise this you will have much more long term success then the “Money Hungry” folks at HQ! I see this whole thing being the best thing that could of happened for you and your future. Keep doing what your doing we are all behind you. Thanks for all your help and knowledge!
Well crap! My wife, the owner of the Crossfit gym I workout in, and myself were all excited to be coming to your cert in Chico in January. Then my wife shows me an email that says you won’t be giving it, and it’s moved to Redding.
I was also registered for the mobility cert same weekend, but they haven’t mentioned if that’s moved to Redding or not. Who knows?
Regardless, if you’ll offer your own cert the same weekend, count me in. CF has a lot to offer, but I have no interest in having the Zone preached to me, and certainly not paying for same. Sure, it was fun when I did 16 blocks of nothing but egg whites and ice cream for several days and lost weight, but thanks in large part to you I’ve moved on to a paleo apprach.
Please please please offer your own cert the same weekend. Even if the mobility cert is in Redding, we’ll find a way to your location on the other day that weekend!
Kind regards
I consider myself fortunate to have attended your cert at CF Fairfax back in May. The cert is all about taking this tangled mess of science and emotion (yep, food has a very strong emotional component) and making sense of it so coaches can impart a workable daily plan on their athletes. Sure, there are other experts out there on this or that aspect of nutrition, but you have a unique solution that is adaptable to Average Joe to turn him from a couch potato to a formidable athlete.
Part of what makes CF such a powerful methodology is two things: it takes the best of everything and it coaches the entire person. Part of finding the best is to hear dissident voices rise above the chatter telling about new successes with a sound foundation in science and application. We don’t know everything there is to know about the human body. New discoveries are made every day. The second part about coaching the entire person is that CF isn’t just about coaching while the athlete has a barbell in his hands. Most other plans out there give a weight routine and a two week computer generated meal plan with a $500 grocery list. How is that going to work in the long term?
I know you will always be part of the CF community, even if your seminars are no longer deemed “certifications”. Do you have a timeline for your book yet? I can’t wait to read it!
I’m fairly new to your blog, but I’ve admired your perspective. Your honesty, openness, experience, and education make your opinions on nutrition valid. I was looking forward to a Crossfit Nutrition cert because I wanted to learn from people of your caliber. I won’t be attending any cert from people that think craptacular food quality weighed and measured is more ideal for an athlete than food quality. I most certainly will not be giving my money to people that cannot be open-minded enough to hear and accept that other opinions exist. I hope you offer your own cert.
The thing I don’t think HQ gets about crossfit is that it’s bigger then them. It’s bigger than all of us. I will always respect Coach Glassman as the inventor of crossfit just as I’ll always be grateful to the inventors of football and basketball, but one of the most amazing things about sports is their transcendent quality.
With or without HQ we will all still head out to our garages and our neighborhood gyms and play this sport of fitness. And as each of us tries to push ourselves and one another toward excellence – the game too will excel… it will evolve. To think that any one person or group has power or control over this is an illusion. The goal of an illusion is to trick people into believing that what they’re seeing is real. All it takes for the illusion to be broken is for one person to see it for what it really is and to spread that message. The illusion lasts because we’ve allowed it to last.
I believe there are many of us starting to see it for what it is now. I also believe that most of us have been so grateful for the gift of crossfit, that we’ve been more then willing to jump through the hoops put into play by HQ. But now people have stopped jumping and have started looking around and noticing the illusion – and one by one they’re getting ridiculed, muted, shoved out, pushed aside. One person isn’t a danger, but if that person has the chance to show others what’s happening then the illusion dies… power dies… control dies… the money dies… Crossfit™ dies… and all of that, of course, is to be resisted at all costs.
HQ… and ultimately… Coach… You have given us something that all of us are beyond grateful for, but show us that you’re in this for our good as much as yours. Show us that you have our best interests at heart. Show us that truth and excellence matter more then deals and big names and money. Show us courage and leadership and integrity. Show us something that we can be proud to stand behind and call our own. Show us that you’re better then what’s being presented right now. Show us that Crossfit™ is better then what’s being presented right now. Show us the heart that was present so many years ago… when crossfit was just a blue screen and a pure means towards elite fitness.
Oh, and on a much more personal note, I was fortunate enough to have been Amanda’s roommate before she moved to CA. I love that girl fiercely and am truly grateful for your personal interest in her case.
Thanks Emily. We have all of our heads together on that. We will figure it out.
Damn now Dale Saran is trying to kick your nuts. They have sent out the heavy hitters. Dale , where is my RRG money? When is the $200 I spent several months ago going to show me a ROI?
Thanks for everyone’s support Mr & Mrs MAC we miss you! Hope all is well, and thank you so much for your support.
Always love me some Britney 😉
the youtube video posted above is priceless. Keep up the great work Robb! can’t wait for the book!
Robb, I am very sorry to hear about this situation eventhough I am not surprised. It seems to be HQ’s way, or the highway. My wife and I will be following you and your blog as we have been since we found it. I am glad I got to meet you at my level one and perhaps you will continue to hold seminars which we can attend. I have lost another chunk of respect for Crossfit.
Good luck and keep up the good work.
Robb,
Keep up the good work. Crossfit is not keeping up with their stated ideals. Paleo vs Zone is a no brainer and because of you my health has improved. Because CF is so Zone dependent , I have stopped listening to them. I trained at Mikes gym with Greg and Aimee and that open my eyes as well. As long as HQ now refuses to change to what works, we will all follow you or what works best.
Just let us all know when the book is ready to purchase and the certs begin……
Hey Robb, you’ve been at this all day, and it must be rough on you. I hope you can chill for the night so you can feel better tomorrow.
This is very sad to read…
Although, it is not surprising. Crossfit HQ will either continue to evolve or it will be split up by those that have evolved. The glue in Crossfit is primarily the community (The family at your gym), and this is not the Crossfit HQ office. If my gym left Crossfit I would go with them. If they had there own competitions (and they do) I would compete (and I do).
They need to also recognize that there is Crossfit for health, and there is Crossfit for Sport. Crossfit for Sport is not going to settle for the main site WOD and the Zone diet. Guess why? NO ONE IS THE SAME. Because I like Crossfit the Sport I have to do more than the main site WOD. Why? Because they have 8 events in two days. I have to ensure that I’m covering all disciplines and strengthening weaknesses. The site doesn’t cater to this.
Neither does The Zone…
Quality of food is more important than measured quantities. I also believe in listening to your body. If your running out of gas you need to take stock. Why would Crossfit HQ be unwilling to examine other ideas about diet?
Imagine if all of us that have made Crossfit what it is today were also not willing to listen to a new idea about fitness.
Dave Castro has never impressed me. He’s arrogant and I have no idea why? He hasn’t trained anyone, and he couldn’t qualify in his wildest dreams.
All Con,
I knew I’d be dragged into this shit sooner or later.
Barry Cooper wrote:
“For example, in my understanding Mark Twight was going around certifying people in CrossFit, by name, without getting permission. Coach Glassman found out when Mark called him and asked for official certificates. That from Coach’s mouth, and I don’t think he’ll mind me sharing that in this context.”
Greg Glassman lied to you Barry. I could ask one or two of the operators who attended the seminar in question, which was sanctioned by Greg and Lauren, to support my statement if I cared about whether you know the truth or not. However, in lieu of wasting any more time on you, and for the sake of this public meltdown, perhaps the following email sent to me on 3/28/05 – prior to the seminar – will shed some light on that particular situation.
“Dog,
It was great talking to you last night. I wish I could inspire you the way you inspire me, but that is a ‘coach’s burden’ perhaps.”
… irrelevant text redacted
“Lauren will send you disc of CFJ’s. We spiral bind them a la Kinko’s. Whatever help you need with curriculum – reach out. On their completion we’ll mail cert’s to attendees or give to you for same.
Your friend,
Greg”
Greg likes to talk on the phone, that way there’s no record of what he says or agrees to unless one is either paranoid or sharp enough to record the conversation. I wasn’t. At the time Greg and CF were not plugged into the unit receiving the instruction, I was. Greg granted me permission to run a cert for an organization with whom he had no standing or credibility. I was, after all, a CF-certified Coach. In that capacity I taught three 10-hour days, administered a test, failed one of the four students, asked CF to print the names on the Level 1 certificates and mailed them out. End of story.
Robb, you had to know it would come to this sooner or later. You’re a better man than I for having tried to improve the project. For that I respect you.
Mark Twight
Thanks Mark, much appreciated.
First I must say this entire ordeal is absolutely ridiculous. It reminds me of opening day of duck season. Point and shoot at the ducks… I wasn’t there, I’m not on a side, and honestly I don’t really give a shit. CF HQ asked if I would hold a nutrition cert and I said yes. My box sits in the Northern California isolated from the other California gyms. We train, we sweat, and at the end of the day we drink a beer and laugh about it. If the powers that be ask me to hold a Cert. I will because I’m part of the community as are all of you.
Robb, Nicki and NorCal you’ve been great to my CFR crew, my girlfriend, and myself… Don’t change that!!!
As far as everyone else, this gives you the moment to speak out about how much you hate this or dislike him or her. Ask yourselves this: In July when we all make our pilgrimage to Aromas are you going to be the hypocrites that are nuzzling up to HQ’er’s spewing about how great everything was and how much you love CrossFit?… It’s been one day and I’m absolutely bored and disgusted with the entire thing. Now excuse me while I go eat my non blocked gluten enriched piece of pumpkin pie.
~Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives
Soap Opera Shit!
Bryan Schenone
CrossFit Redding
Tony Budding,
I politely asked you for your side of the story on the crossfit WOD blog. My post was deleted and my IP address is now banned from posting to that blog. Actions speak louder than words and I’ll accept the ban and nuked post as your side of the story.
Robb the cert will now fail. Gear up for the Zone pep rally
I am down with PALEO
Robb,
Honestly this is usually where i would say you were the better man, dont listen to them and continue on doing what you are doing because frankly, your right. But in light of the responses you got from them, simply put…
fuck em…
What fears me now is where will this lead ? Have they got their heads so far up each others political ass that they dont even know what crossfit is anymore? unbelievable.. keep on doing what you do and whatever you decide im right behind you..
Robb,
I have net met you and quite frankily never bought in to the whole paleo diet. However, my current performance has gone to shit. I am a strict zone guy and have been for about 7 months. I was actually interested in attending a nutrition cert to find out about more about the paleo. I recently attended a level 1 Cf cert and never heard more than one word about the paleo. I was bugged out because I feel like the Crossfit community needs more than one option. So here I am all 5ft 7inches at 160lbs. What is the best source for Paleo for a beginner like me?
Thank you,
Joey
Joey-
For now it looks like this blog, the blog roll, Crossfit football.
Just wanted to chime in and wish you good luck, Robb. HQ would be stupid not to come crawling back to you. You’ve been an enormous asset to the community and it’s truly pathetic that they don’t realize that.
I don’t know enough about Crossfit HQ to comment on either side of the argument. However, I’ve been around Crossfit enough to learn that this is more than a 24hr. Fitness club; were a fucking TEAM in the sport of fitness. And regardless of who’s right and who’s wrong, its a shame to see the team in affliction. Robb, I’ve read your research and watched your videos on youtube and I’m bummed to see that you are no longer teaching the nutrition cert in Chico (now in Redding), as I’ve been signed up for the event for months. Hopefully everyone can make amends and join forces for the greater good, the Crossfit Community, despite the differences of opinion. To me, its the community itself that makes Crossfit so great; a collaboration of athletes that all share the common passion for fitness. We all have different perspectives on the sport; the diversity itself enables growth. Again, I don’t know who’s right – really, no one is… But I know the loss of Robb and others is a crippling blow to the Crossfit TEAM.
Can’t we all just get along?
Hey Robb,
I met you at the Nutrition Cert at Team CrossFit Academy. All I can say echoes what has been said earlier.
Ever since I attended your cert, my PRs and well being have skyrocketed. I have never felt better. You opened my eyes to ways of thinking about food I had never heard of. You are one of the most educated, intellectual and knowledgeable speakers I’ve ever heard, and on such an important topic.
CF HQ definitely screwed up losing you. Everyone knows the Zone is old hat.
Keep up the good work, and I can’t wait to read your new book!
Rob,
I support your fight. If u ever hold a nutrition seminar then count on my attendance.
AJ
BUNK – I was looking SO forward to you coming to Vancouver in January! I have asked for a refund and await a response.
If I could make it happen I would love to travel to NorCal for a non-CF nutrition seminar – I was in it for the info not the “cert”. Keep us posted on any opportunities in that vain – OR any independent seminars coming to Vancouver or the NW in the near future.
Keep up the great work – love the site and looking forward to the book.
Cheers!
Robb, I entered the CrossFit community in 2006 and soon learnt of you. You were to me THE nutrition authority in CrossFit because you were knowledgeable, shared your knowledge, had much experience helping your clients, and helped many strangers for free including me with regards to our individual circumstances. Greg Everett was the person to go to in relation to olympic lifting. Mark Rippetoe was the expert in relation to the basic lifts and getting stronger. I learnt heaps more from the three of you than I ever did from the mainsite, the CFJ and CF Radio.
I have read discussions about Dan John, Mark Twight, Tucker, the arrogance and ludicrous standard of many affiliates, and the reasons ex-affiliates chose not to affiliate. I grew more and more disappointed with what CF was turning into. But the way you and Greg E have been treated is the ultimate disappointment. I do not know you and Greg E to exaggerate or embellish, to be malicious, or to make ad hominem attacks. Therefore I do not see any basis for construing Greg E’s articles and presentations and your articles and presentations as CF-bashing or Zone-bashing. What happened was absolutely ridiculous. The manner and extent to which yours and Greg E’s articles and presentations have been misconstrued is absolutely ridiculous.
I look forward to learning more from you, Greg E and Mark Rippetoe. I look forward to the intelligent and helpful discussions on the Performance Menu forums which the CF forums rarely have nowadays because there are no authorities available to offer help and guidance. I look forward to your podcasts and your book. I will continue recommending and speaking well of you, Greg E and Mark Rippetoe – please say hi to them for me if you see them. I am sad to say that I am no longer comfortable with recommending or speaking well of CrossFit to anyone.
That is a shame Robb. Was quite looking forward to you making it Down Under. We are still enjoying ‘splendid isolation’ and the absolutely wonderful honeymoon period of CrossFit in Australia. Just wish Vegemite was paleo. Disappointing turn of events that is for sure.
The “Think Tank” video that was posted on the main site on Friday (the same day as the BBS started) – a video about the merits of a group of affiliate owners getting together to help their businesses by holding an open and frank discussion on all sorts of topics – opens with Glassman saying the following:
“It’s a simple story, the more, maybe most intelligent affiliates spontaneously organised for their better, and it’s at the heart of this open-source concept. We knew they would and hoped they would, and waited and watched, and it happened this weekend. And we didn’t have to do a thing.”
How ironic to see Glassman publically endorse this kind of free-thinking, affiliate-organised event, and on exactly the same weekend we see Castro & Co. trying to undermine such an event. It speaks volumes.
Robb, I’ll just add my small voice to the hundreds of others in singing your praises and wishing you well. You’ve always had integrity by the bucket load, you’ve been an amazing help to countless people out there including myself, and you’ve added immesurable value to CF. Thankfully CF Inc’s loss doesn’t have to mean that we all lose out as individuals, and I look forward to reading the book, hearing the podcasts, attending some web seminars and who knows – maybe meeting you in person if you ever do get out to the UK for a Robb Wolf Seminar (I’ll still shout all the beers as well…)
I’ll also congratulate you for having the balls to stand by your convictions and morals; it’s how we act when faced with these hard situations that really define the kind of people that we are, and in my humble opinion you’re doing yourself proud.
All the best,
Nick
Robb,
I will echo the previous comments thanking you for your expertise and training. Regarding CHQ, it appears they have a strong bias against MEBB programming yet espouse the open source format. I think Glassman and his team need a refresher on what defines open source. Also, based on the over-sensitivity to the Zone, CHQ must have entered a financial relationship with Sears they haven’t disclosed and are working hard to protect that investment despite the obvious benefits of Paleo.
Keep up the good work and I can’t wait for the book.
Lin
Sorry to hear about all of this…sort of…CFHQ has always made me a bit uneasy, more so lately. I’m sure things will turn out for you – looking forward to the book!
And, if you ever need a statistician to work with all that data you’ve been collecting (you have been collecting data, right?) drop me a line… (I’m still a postdoc, so I work for publications 🙂
Very sad…
Robb,
Quite obviously I have many detractors since I take strong positions, but I”m no hypocrite: yes, I want details. We serve no one by hiding things. If there are real, structural problems, step one is to acknowledge them. They will only get worse otherwise. I regularly expose myself to criticism, and have always viewed that as a useful practice.
Alright Barry, I hope you know what you are asking for. I’m going to take a few days and dig everything off stored servers and elsewhere and walk it all out from the beginning.
Oh man.
Funny. One of the people I respect most in the entire CF community is Robb. I’m not kissing your butt cause we’ve never met. Instead, I just read your blog and you put out quality information. Nuff said.
Dave on the other hand, is someone I’ve watched through the videos and to me he comes off like an arrogant spoiled little brat. This solidifies that.
I donated to the RRG from Canada. I GET/GOT nothing out of it. This was done at a time when I truly believed in what CF was doing. As I began to screw my head on tighter I began to see the shortcomings. I would like to know where those funds are as well and how I can get mine back.
Sorry to hear this Robb but I think you’re better off leaving the CERTS behind. You could do them on your own and sell out faster, make more money etc etc. You don’t need the brand power of CF behind you.
I fear that CFHQ’s strict 100% no-refund policy on certs will be a bit of a bummer for those already registered and paid for your certs.
Robb, you have my support. You are a man of passion and principles. I thank you for your dedication to the community and all that you do to effect positive change in people’s lives. As a new trainer, I am understanding how amazing it is to be a part of this community. I get the sense that you understand the impact you’ve been able to make and don’t do so out of greed or pride but because you know nutrition is literally killing people. Offering a free nutrition cert to those folks coming to Chico shows you are a true class act. I look forward to the opportunity for our affilliate to host a future Robb Wolf nutrition seminar.
Be careful with your bashing of Russell. He preaches a Paleo-Zone approach to diet. I have been training at Crossfit Huntsville for 15 months and have learned a tremendous amount about fitness and the importance of diet. The core to what Russell preaches about diet is Paleo – eat only what’s on the perimeter of the grocery store. The Zone element is great for newbies to figure out proper food portions (since most Americans have no concept of healthy portions). Once you have gone through a Paleo-zone challenge, you understand portions, LBM, fat jacket, and other diet related topics.
The books Russell has suggested on diet include – Lights Out, The Zone, and all of your books, Mr. Wolf. Russell presents a very balanced approach to diet.
Larry-
Glad to hear it. Sounds like a very well run program.
Barry,
“… Since we are clearing the air, I have to ask: why did you leave the first time? I’ve never seen it discussed …”
Robb has given his permission for me to respond to this. The reason that Robb left the first time is really quite simple; he left because of an episode where Glassman engaged in a personal attack upon me.
This occurred very much behind the scenes. Robb and Greg Everett are however consumate professionals, as well as gentlemen, and chose not to air this unfortunate incident in public. Out of consideration for them, I have never mentioned this publically – until Robb agreed to do so today.
While there were also telephone conversations involved, the bulk of the incident occurred via email. I hesitate to post the whole sordid mess in it’s entirety as the combined emails are actually quite long, but will do so if requested.
Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer
So Barry, if you want the Emails and all that to go up let me know. it is not going to go well for the community.
This was brutal, clearly some egos need to be deflated.
When things go bad you have to consciously make a choice to either accept the failure, distance yourself from it or attempt to correct the short comings.
Unfortunately some have chosen to run away instead of fix the problems. But the CF community is a great resource, something we haven’t had in access to before, I for one don’t want to see that go away.
So it’s time to make a choice, either CFHQ starts leading, correcting, and performing random audits on it’s affiliates or it sees them deliver watered down kool-aid.
People should remember where they came from, and despite Greg Everett’s knowledge base, it seems that he deserved to be called out. The 9 fundamentals have launched legions of CrossFitters into wellness, and Glassman et al have demystified elite fitness for the masses. There are those that want to mystify it, and have a problem with anyman or anywoman intruding on their perceived thought territory.
Bravo to Dave Castro for calling it for what it was.
Robb, you lost a huge base.
The Black Box Summit, by even addressing the ridiculous GreySkull article, helped fuel this debacle. The Keplers must be in angst.
I’ve never had the pleasure to meet you Robb, but I just wanted to speak up and show support as part of this community. The Paleo vs. Zone is a no brainer, and I believe CFHQ has really shot themselves in the foot on this one. Do people have success on the Zone? Some do . . . but most have better success doing Paleo.
A little anecdote: I finally convinced my mother to start doing Paleo in September, and since then she has lost over 25 lbs while eating more (in volume of food). This is weight that she’s been trying to lose for 20 years! I’m still trying to get her to do some sort of exercise, but if all she ever does is eat paleo, I’ll consider it a triumph.
Who do I have to thank for this? Well . . . you.
Through your blog and posts, it was you who introduced The Paleo Diet to me (as I’m sure much of this community), and for that I’m ever grateful.
Stay strong, and keep it coming. You’re making a huge difference in our lives!
Oops, Sorry Robb sent you an email before I realized I should just post a comment.
According to the emails I just exchanged with Crossfit customer service
1. They do not know who they will replace Robb with or what material will be covered
2. They are offering refunds to any who request them
Post them Robb, there is so much behind the scenes bunk. The public face and the private are two very different things. Perhaps by sharing it finally Coach G will listen.
George Mounce got pushed off the message boards for integrity violations because he gained access to the mod boards and the b.s that they spew behind the scenes and posted it for all to see, for someone who is libertarian there sure is a good amount of censorship going on.
I am getting tired of all this Coach is awesome thing. He has does some great things but it is the affiliates that make him not the other way around and I can provide simple figures to show it. Yet, the love and interaction that affiliates “get” I have never seen.
Something is rotten in the state of Denmark, imperialistic not open source
robb i think the point has been made. you don’t really need to nuke anymore bridges by posting emails and stuff. that’s just petty. it SEEMS that you were and right dave was wrong. but to continue further is gonna make you look like dave castro. at a certain point you gotta step back and do what is right for the greater good of both the community and yourself.
Joey-
This is totally my thought as well. The reason why I left CrossFit several years ago is not going to stabilize this situation.
Robb, Coach Sommer,
Like seemingly 90% of Americans, I grew up in a dysfunctional home which developed in me a passion for telling the unvarnished truth, whatever it may be. You can’t fix problems you won’t acknowledge.
I believe in both creative destruction, and spontaneous self organizing systems. It is not necessary for me to view Coach Glassman as a saint to respect him as a person and fitness professional; nor will negatives necessarily lead me to view the totality of the CrossFit community in a negative light. In fact, I know far too many good people in the community to believe that possible.
My vote is to bring it on. It may spark a wave of change, but at the end of it, we will be stronger. I try to be consistent in my views and how I reach them, and this position best reflects everything I hold sacred.
Barry-
I’m not going to post that material at this time. I think Coach Sommer’s post is sufficient for the broader audience. I’ll discuss it with you in private if you like.
I am through trying to improve or change CF HQ. It’s broken, I cannot fix it. I can serve the community it has started and to do that I need to start moving on with my life. I did this original post so a public record was in place because HQ and glassman will disparage and lie about me from now till the end of time. Some people will believe the lies, others will not. Part of the Glassman spin is that I planned and am using this event to my benefit. Very self serving that. If I speak out I am grand-standing and seeking attention. Instead they would prefer I slink away, making no waves, just allowing them to run me down at their leisure. Not this time. That said though, I see when enough is enough. If you want to try to fix those broken souls, you do it. Not my concern or problem any longer.
So, If you want to discuss it we can. Then if YOU want to make this public, if you think it’s of significant enough importance to the community and HQ’s health…you post all that material over on the CF.com site.
There would be a certain poetry to your post, directed at changing things, getting deleted.
I am the kid that pressed the red button growing up and was known as one that creates ripples. This event was a catalyst to a bunch of screwed up stuff and perhaps stablizing the situation is not what is needed.
Change needs to happen and sometimes its ugly but necessary.
Several years ago you left and yet here several years later the ugliness that lies underneath is stll going on and now to the point where it is manifesting itself.
Perhaps by exposing it you are doing a greater service than just sweeping it under the rug so that it continues…
Post them, Robb. When you CC’ed me those horrific emails from that place and person, it just really explained so much to me. These people that think that they are joining a loving community, just don’t get it.
This point:
“People should remember where they came from, and despite Greg Everett’s knowledge base, it seems that he deserved to be called out. The 9 fundamentals have launched legions of CrossFitters into wellness, and Glassman et al have demystified elite fitness for the masses. There are those that want to mystify it, and have a problem with anyman or anywoman intruding on their perceived thought territory.”
has to be a joke.
Dan-
I can’t do it. IF Barry wants to he can post that material over at cf.com
To be fair, Joey…
I haven’t been in this community long enough to know the other “incidents” everybody is speaking of (Twight, etc)…but it seems as though that staying quiet has never done much good. I don’t know if posting emails is really the best solution, and really…I don’t have a dog in the fight…but the alternative has proven many times that it doesn’t work.
Will,
That’s really interesting about Mounce, I always wondered what happened to him. Do you still keep in touch with him? I’d like more of his side about that stuff.
I’ve stopped posting much on the forums on the main site because of all the modding that happens to pretty harmless posts that bring up constructive, yet possibly dissenting views of CF methodology.
I am glad this happened, I’ve never cared much for Castro and have always wondered what his credentials were, aside from having the ranch. Budding is showing his true colors these days too, but you could always sort of see the good ol’ boys club shine through in most of the videos he puts out too.
Don’t push the aristocracy, even if you have a good point 😉
Dan, not a joke: true. Who heard of you before CrossFit, other than by way of Twight, who heard of Twight other than by way of CrossFit, who heard of Greg Everett other than by way of CrossFit by way of of Mike’s Gym by way of CrossFit.
Go back to T nation and teaching high school boys.
I think that anything posted on CF.com would be gone very shortly. Wish there was a forum of truth subjective as it might be, no Ben I called George when it all went down and searched the internet and found the posts.
I appreciate Robbs view but it just means everything will move as usual after a week or so of this blowing over…
Rick CF gave an avenue and I don’t think anyone desputes that but that doesn’t make them above reproach. Do you think that they shouldn’t be criticized ever?
Ben, Mounce is on the PMenu forums still
Rick, just rent the “Bigger Faster STronger” videos, especially the Power Clean. That’s about 1991 or so. Before that, well, if you want my athletic vita, I will send it to you.
Rick, my email is [email protected]
If you honestly think what you wrote is true and you are not trolling, at least let’s talk. Use a real name, I will give you my telephone number, too. To EVER think that crossfit had an impact, save negative, on my career is inaccurate.
Rick, please tell me you were a world famous climber or nationally ranked discus thrower/coach and writer.
They were.
Before CrossFit.
Rick,
You don’t know what you’re talking about… That’s cool, though. It happens to the best of us.
For reference, I heard about CrossFit from Mark Twight, and I was the 87th affiliate. There was actually a time when CrossFit was unknown, and Greg Glassman was a nobody. Loooonnng before that Mark Twight was known as the greatest American alpinist of his time and a trainer well deserving of a lofty reputation. He will be remembered for decades to come for his phenomenal athletic accomplishments.
As for Dan John; he is highly respected in the broader strength and conditioning community, where Greg Glassman is perceived as an annoyance.
There’s a big world outside of CrossFit, dude…
Zach
Rick-
I heard of Crossfit by way of Twight/John. By way of “300”…like literally thousands other Crossfitters. It is a popular theme actually. Much more than the other way around.
Everett points out in his article (if you read it) that HQ has done NOTHING to advertise him and minimal profit has come from them directly! Yes people from the community have found him from Crossfit..but not by way of HQ! Word of mouth, seeking better training/knowledge. Nice try though.
just to clarify renee, i’m not in favor of sweeping everything under the rug either. i just know that sometimes a purge can go to far and become more destructive than positive. from the information presented here and other places about what happened its apparent who’s right and who’s wrong. bringing other people into it and especially posting emails is in my opinion a little unnecessary at this point. now if dave and hq want to go around bashing robb and greg and trying to destroy their credibility then by all means rob nuke em. but as of now i would let things settle down awhile.
Joey-
That’s the problem. They will. they do. With Impunity. This is why I’ve SAVED all this stuff. In multiple locations. Because this is how they operate. I think what you are saying is right, the reason I do not post it is because I think HQ is a lost cause. The complete lack of ANY action on Dave Castro is testament to this. This is damage control, hoping to keep the wheels on the wagon for a while longer.
While having little credibility to speak to any of this (and not that anyone really cares what I would say anyway) since I don’t personally know anyone who was involved, I am quite disturbed by how all of this went down.
Without having actually been there and witnessed it first hand, and since everyone’s story is inherently slanted with their own biases, it sounds like there was no shortage of extremely unprofessional behavior. This is disappointing as CF always struck me as an organization that embraced openness and excellence. It was somewhat disconcerting to hear of HQ behaving in this way as they are, even if only in a small way, the face of CF.
As men in their 20’s and 30’s, I would expect a greater degree of maturity, humility, and general appreciation for other’s perspectives. It’s ironic that those who should arguably be acting with the greatest degree of professionalism and excellence (HQ reps), were the ones acting most like 12 year olds who’ve been playing too much XBox (see: incessant cursing about nothing with no intelligent reason).
Robb, I’ve never met you, however based on what I’ve read, you seem like a quality guy who has put in the hours to know what he’s talking about, and it’s a shame that you (and Greg) were treated this way. Hope all this works out somehow for the benefit of the CF community and the maturing of HQ staff.
Rick,
I’m guessing that you haven’t been around for long, kid. Dan John was well-known in the strength community long before Crossfit. In fact, many people only heard about Crossfit because of Dan John — myself included.
Um, there are a lot of people who heard about Dan John in other ways than Crossfit, hard as that may be to understand in your koolaid haze, Rick. Crossfit is not the center of the fitness universe; Dan was getting people strong long before Glassman fell off his rings.
Rick,
Whoa, there big fella, let’s just cool off a little. Climbers knew Mark Twight well before CF and Dan John was a thrower, lifter and coach with a rep or he wouldn’t have been invited in. They both deserve more respect than you’re giving them. Greg would be the same coach he is now with or without CF. Back off.
Lol @ some of the comments on here…It’s like some of you are realizing that the matrix you thought you woke up from was only really another matrix. I know it’s difficult, but just accept it, learn from it and move on. Glassman is not “Neo”.
The appearance of Mark Twight, Dan John, Zach Evan-Esh, Steve Shaf in support of Robb and the involvement of Greg Everett and Mike Rutherford in this whole fiasco is making this comment thread a halfway house for gifted, intelligent coaches who have all woken up and moved away from your false prophet and on to really helping people without all of the Glassman/Crossfit/Cult baggage.
Mark Twight’s appearance and trouncing of Barry Cooper was an epic win.
And don’t worry about the vase.
Rick, not sure if you are joking or not, my Internet meaning decoder is broken. I knew of Dan John way before Crossfit, by way of a few message boards (Old School Strength Training, I believe) and thought the the CF community would stand to benefit with his association. How he was treated by the Glassmans over ( a silly comment made by another writer) was simply inexcusable.
CF is great, but it is not the end-all and be-all that some think it is.
Well Barry if Robb does give you the information you have requested it will be very interesting to see what you do with it. If it denigrates your leader will you still publish it? Will you hold as strongly to your ideal of outing the truth when you personally will face the negative consequences, or will that ideal suddenly fall to a much weaker appeal of “benefiting the community” or “moving forward instead of rehashing the past”. Words are easy and heaven knows you’re quick to offer them up in large supply, but actions are much harder.
Please don’t bother with a list of examples of you being a man of your word in the past–I don’t know you at all so I am perfectly willing to accept either premise: that you have been a staunch man of your word or just a big talker. Time will tell which of those holds true in this case.
Rick, not a joke: Nobody really cares about your opinion. Your assumption about Dan John’s audience simply underscores your utter cluelessness.
Go back to your shack under the bridge.
—————-
In response to
Rick
Posted November 25, 2009 at 9:02 am
Rick,
I believe you missed the point!! The issue at hand is NOT “who made who”, because as an observer I see Robb and Greg offering much credit to CrossFit for its accomplishments in the field of health and fitness. But to be clear, the actions of HQ representatives are and were indefensible. I have noted the arrogance and intolerance for alternative opinions for 3 years in this movement and quite frankly, until you and others realize that advancement in technique and science are ALWAYS produced by healthy discussions and differing views, all of the great attributes of Crossfit will be eclipsed by the aforementioned personality shortcomings. That’s too bad, may I recommend an awesome read to the “leaders” in CrossFit, “How to Win Friends, and Influence People” by Dale Carnegie.
Newsflash:
We’re talking about working out, here–gang. When I read Greg Everett’s little tirades, from Cozy little Cathletics or Robb’s “I’m so cool with my slanted jabs at Barry Sears” in my ridiculously wordy Performance Menu Quasi Journal, I think of the kids that talked big shit at the playground but got dusted when it came down to the real fight. Guess who belongs in this same camp: The T-Nation, GreySkulls, Dan Johns, etc. who really have bought into the idea that they are revolutionaries…
So Paper Tigers Greg Everett and Rob Wolff who talk big from the glow of their computer screens, get called out–and we essentially are seeing the equivalent here of “crying to mommy”, mommy being the legions of interested listeners in what Robb Wolff has brought to Nutrition.
Bravo
Dissociate the Fans from the Information, and you still have a snivelling, slighted clique that is now starting to meld into the following camp:
The expatriate Mark Twight, Johnny Pain, Dutch Lowy, Greg Everett, (hopefully not Welbourn and Rippetoe) Robb Wolff Camp that will preach to the already converted…and I’m not sure how what forum they’ll use to convert, perhaps DragonDoor and T-Nation?
vs.
The fastest growing movement in fitness, now reaching far into Australia and Europe.
Tell me who is going to be marginalized?
Bravo, HQ, for disregarding the forum, and choosing the right moment to blow the lid off of those that bite the hand that feeds. Bravo.
Keep it coming Rick. You might get something substantive here at some point, even if by accident. There is a statistical chance of a monkey at a keyboard producing the complete works of Shakespeare…I’ll hold out hope for you.
Rick…they are choosing the RIGHT MOMENT? How would YOU know this? Interesting….
“The best of men are but men at best.” General John Lambert (1619-83)
With that said, every single one of us has made public statements that did not represent us well, or in fact, made us look unprofessional. This is not to excuse poor judgment, but merely to bring to light that we all fail from time to time, in speech, and in deed.
The real test put before us is not how well we can defend our positions, but how well we can see past our positions into the heart of those who attack us personally. We are all created equal, and we all have the same ability to fail, though some have learned to be self controlled, others have yet more learning to do.
Bringing to light the deeds of the past does not liberate a relationship, but destroys it. We see our nations leaders promote themselves through negative ads of those they compete against, and we are disgusted. We do ourselves no justice by seeking the worst in others. I believe there is a time and place for discussing disagreements, and dealing with difficult people. But it is never right to discipline another in front of his peers. This is a basic military concept I learned long ago in my years spent as a Navy diver in San Diego. Dave Castro is a Navy SEAL (or was), and I am sure he has much to offer in the area of physical training, and what works when it counts the most. One must take into consideration the personality that motivates a man to succeed in the SPECWAR community. His actions did not represent CFHQ or the Navy well at all, and I am sire he does not feel good about his choice of words.
Rob Wolf, I appreciate what you have offered to the CF community in the way of your nutritional certifications. I attend one of your certs on July 20, 2008, in San Francisco. What I learned from you in the way of nutrition has helped me in my fitness goals greatly. Thank you! I eat mostly Paleo in zone proportions. I have measured what I eat, but not so much any more. I now have a good idea on what I need to eat to perform at the level I desire to perform at.
CrossFit is growing, and it has become a family for many of us. A family with many type-A personalities, myself included. 🙂 With that said, we all need to proceed from here with a measure of love. For those who do not respect us, we show self respect. I am reminded of the greatest love that ever existed; the love God showed us all on the cross at Calvary. If the Creator of the universe can humble himself for us, when we truly did not deserve it, then surely we can do the same for one another.
My prayers will be for us all: -that we can learn to forgive one another in a spirit of love. He who loves is perfected, and he who does not love, needs our love the most!
Sincerely,
Greg/M2
Rick, about three years ago I met Dan John. We talked about the wars between CF and the ex-CF cognoscenti. We both agreed right away that ‘it’s just working out!’ for gosh sakes.
Yes, we get that. We exercise, too. We don’t crash someone else’s party to tell that that they shoot tequila the wrong way and start a fight about it. That’s basically what Castro et all did.
The argument, it’s just working out (and running a PRIVATELY held business) is entirely the point. Well said, sir! Please follow your advice.
Keep writing, there are other sites eager to laugh at you, not with you.
Robb, you are class.
Barry,
It sure didn’t take long for you to leap to the defense of your hate-filled, alcoholic mentor – birds of a feather I suppose.
When and if Robb shows you the email/correspondence trail that shows your friend glassman to be a lying, conniving user, I will, for one — and, notice, I’m using, lots of, commas — expect you to crawl back into that “arid place” you live and STFU.
After a complete apology of course. Heck, SOME people liked Stalin.
Rick-
You’re clearly an HQ plant and your stement is not valid. Why is it relevant that Crossfit is the vehicle that exposed us to Robb’s background in diet?
This has no bearing on his field of expertise nor does it negate his position on the topic of evolving with HQ.
No theory should be ineligible for discussion. Robb believes there are alternatives to the Zone, and guess what?
SO DO A LOT OF US IN THE COMMUNITY.
What you don’t realize is that there are a number (and growing) of people that don’t believe the Zone is the complete answer. As a matter of fact, it’s Robb that has kept me involved with the comunity because I find the blind support of the Zone on Crossfit.com to be a bad indication of their unwillingness to continue to question.
It makes me believe they are in some way profiting from a relationship with Dr. Sears and his product pitches with a sprinkle of data.
If it is not acceptable to ask questions for debate than Crossfit is another fitness fad. With every year that passes we gain new insight into the body and it’s capabilities.
This is the Glassman speech about collecting data….
You have to ask questions. When you do this through trial and error you will either prove the new theory right or wrong. This is the Scientific Method..
If we can’t have someone say, “I don’t believe the shrug is correct…” without Dave Castro calling him a “Fat Fuck.” than we are at the end of the road for Crossfit.
I’m sorry to do this….but look at Mikko.
When he wasn’t being filmed 24/7 by Crossfit he was honest about his workout each day: 5K-7k Intense Mountain Trail Run in the Morning, WOD at 4PM followed by intense O-Lifting workout 5-6 days a week.
That would explain his performance in Aromas.
Recently he is very careful to say his Affiliate believes in the Main Site WOD.
WHY???? Why can’t he say the Main Site WOD doesn’t do it for someone that is going after Crossfit as a sport?
I know why? Dave Castro and HQ can apparently DE-AFFILIATE you, slander your name, and call you “Fat Fuck” in front of your peers and colleagues with impunity.
This SUCKS!!! Because now we won’t know the truths about the programs are top atheletes are doing. We won’t get to evolve an implement similar strategies in our programs and diets to see what results we get.
Without true open discussion we won’t progress…
Hmmmm…. Could Radical Rick actually be Davey boy? I’m gonna guess he’s a none-too-subtle troll… Nobody’s that dense… Well, okay… Not many people
Renee –
Of course you have a dog in the fight – you are one of the worst apologists on the Forums (i.e., Fit Facebook).
To Greg/M2 –
To Greg/M2 –
You know, it’s a pity that you aren’t allowed to share those views on a cf website.
talk about no love.
WOW…..
This is pretty entertaining…..which is sad when you think of the back story to it all…..
I am grateful to Crossfit showing ‘the masses’ a way of working out; that was totally different to the usual routines found in Magazines and Chain Gyms….but this isn’t really anything ‘new’.
I trained with intensity when I joined the forces back in the 80/90s. Mark Twight showed examples from Wrestling Texts from the 60/70s that would not look out of place as a ‘WOD’.
Robb, never met you, in all likelihood I never will, but what I have read and seen you come across as a man of integrity, and of course your qualification speaks for itself…..hold yourself high bud…you do your thing, they do their thing and allow people to make up their own minds.
I always remember being told by an old mentor of mine when setting up a business, make your own market stall, don’t care about other stalls, you set yours up to be the best, learn from others, be respectful, and above all, be the best stall around….no matter what happens in the market place, if you hold yours to a high standard and be the best it can be, you will succeed.
Train Hard, Live Easy
Steve
Barry Cooper: Please post those emails in their entirety. If you don’t post them on crossfit.com, post them somewhere else. I DID join CF because I thought I was joining something special, and for that reason I got my level 1. If that is not the case, then at least post those emails. I think you owe it to the CF community, that its the decent thing to do. I don’t really care about hold fast to political ideals or anything like that. What is in those that is so explosive? They can’t be that bad, or can they? Let me decide.
Whether it’s substantive or not is relative, Robb–depending on the audience. You know that, Robb.
What are you trying to accomplish, Robb–that couldn’t have been accomplished by way of an email to Greg Glassman? Do you really think there is going to be this mass exodus away from a proven method of eliciting performance and wellness among legions of surbananites, MIL/LEO, and athletes? In hindsight, don’t you think there could have been a “tactful” approach taken by you and Greg Everett in your forums and in your lectures? Do you really think it was in good “taste” to have Annie Sakamoto, and Nicole Carroll’s pictures highlighted as “examples”, knowing that they are icons in the CrossFit Community?
Unfortunately, many operators (I am one) are now going to be saddled because of this exchange taken public, outside of the confines of Crossfit Central, with the spector of what “stand” we take with regard to the information that we bring to our affiliates. Are we Paleo? Are we Oly Lifters, or are we CrossFit “Oly” Lifters? Do we teach the fundamental 9? Or do we disregard the MedBall Clean?
Unfortunately, by taking this public, you have become part of the problem, not the solution.
We can wax analytic philosophy all you want, and talk about “ontological committment,” and the like. “Monkeys on a keyboard…” be for real.
By the way, I’ll buy your book–because you are a conduit of good information. But the taking of this public will ultimately not bode well for you, especially as you were primed to be an effective “worldwide” voice on subjects of nutrition.
Right now, your well endorsed understudy, and very capable Melissa Byers is poised to visit our men in uniform in Afghanistan, on behalf of Crossfit. These are Spec Ops people, these are the people that make up CrossFit. These are Dave Castro’s, Eddie Lugo’s, Andy Stumpf’s people. These are the proven that are on the “side,” if you will–of CrossFit.
You stood a better chance of delivering a more impactful presentation of your position on CrossFit by simply remaining silent.
We know that you must align yourself with Greg Everett, he was your trainer, and you co-publish The Performance Menu.
What was cool, up until a couple of months ago, by my estimate, was the fact that Catalyst Athletics, was a necessary adjunct for those interested in buttressing their training. If one took the time to sieve through the Performance Menu, there were interesting articles.
Then the “A guide to teaching the Olympic Lifts in the CrossFit Setting” came out, which was really nothing but a “purists” diatribe against perceived slights on the Oly Lifts as conducted at the CrossFit Games. Then the comments about the Med Ball Clean. Then, the shirts about “The only balls I squat on are these…”
In these moments, the rift was grown. And for Greg and you to use a forum, hosted honorably by CrossFit greats the Keplers, that was “for CrossFitters, by CrossFitters” to further this “perceived” dichtomy, was in bad taste.
And Kudos to Dave for picking up on it in real time, and Kudos to Dave Castro for NOT awaiting for the right moment…
In this moment, Dave Castro, on behalf of CrossFit, took a stand.
Sure, you and others can say that this is furtherance of a long standing chain of reactions by Glassman and HQ….blah blah blah, but the reality is that if you’re just the average joe that’s coming to the box to get programming, and you’re realizing results, it doesn’t even matter to you, let alone reach you…Your touchstone is the Crossfit Journal, you come to the WOD’s, you get excited about the Games, and you get fitter.
What’s sad is that you got caught up between CrossFit and Greg Everett, really. You should have maintained your reticence in those moments when Greg Everett got dressed down by a NAVY SEAL, and the Director of Training, for making a passive aggressive slight against the “purity of the Oly lifts…”
Peace, Robb.
Dave Castro took a STAND? I’m part of the problem?
Do you really think it was in good “taste” to have Annie Sakamoto, and Nicole Carroll’s pictures highlighted as “examples”, knowing that they are icons in the CrossFit Community?
Yea rick, I do. Because if our “icons” are doing it wrong, we might should fix that, Tiger! This is the very heart of the issue. HQ and it’s attendant cronies are above reproach, hyper-sensitive and unwilling to change. At the Golden Colorado Level 1 trainer meeting someone asked Dave Castro why CF push presses and push jerks with knees straight forward, whereas OL’s (like our SME Mike Burgner…the guy whose kid WENT to the olympics. Oh, and his kids wife went too…) do those movements with the knees pushing out…because IT WORKS BETTER THAT WAY. When Dave was questioned about this discrepancy he screamed “WE ARE NOT FUCKING WEIGHTLIFTERS!!!” Indeed, the level 1 curriculum does not produce weightlifters.
What’s sad is that you got caught up between CrossFit and Greg Everett, really. You should have maintained your reticence in those moments when Greg Everett got dressed down by a NAVY SEAL, and the Director of Training, for making a passive aggressive slight against the “purity of the Oly lifts…”
No Rick, it’s called honor. And friendship. And even, LOVE.
I defended not only Greg, I defended this whole community from a thug whose sole means of persuasion is scare tactics and intimidation. People from the teams HATE Dave and articulate it clearly. I did the same thing as when Glassman attacked Coach Sommer. I took a stand and I’ll take my fucking lumps for my friends. When I left before Glassman could not tell enough people how I would fail and be gone without his support. That, like many other things, he was wrong.
Barry,
Here are a couple of my favorite quotes by you that seem to contraindicate your stance on Glassman. Seems to my memory that yuo’ve gone out on many limbs to belittle, degrade, and dismiss any that questioned the great and powerful Oz?
“Surely the question of business is mooted if the size of an organization is doubling annually?”
“Coach–you know, the guy whose judgement we are implicitly debating here–has said that one of the best ways…”
“I’ll ask again: why are you here? What are you trying to accomplish? You are certainly not raising the caliber of the dialogue. ”
“Quality circulates; mediocrity hoards.”
“No, you do not question the man [Glassman] that has given so much to so many for so little.”
“I fear that CFHQ’s strict 100% no-refund policy on certs will be a bit of a bummer for those already registered and paid for your certs.”
I can assure you that they do not adhere to this policy. Not for the specialty “certs” where they are not invested and have contributed nothing in terms of material, personnel or costs.
“Rick”- Been reading and using Dan John’s stuff for 12 years. Found CrossFit via Mark Twight.
Step one is realizing you have a problem.
Good for you Craig >>Bravo.
No problem here
MARKO
Well said, without open discussion CF is no longer an open source, community-driven program.
I understand the desire to adopt exercise and nutrition regimes that are supported by empirical data and results, but the hostile reaction from HQ towards those promoting Paleo (and Greg’s opinion about the shrug in the oly lift) is truly bizarre.
While these actions are alienating for those involved, not to mention people like myself who are far removed, I like to think these events are simply the result of growing pains of a rapidly expanding company without a well-defined business model. That’s the view through my rose-colored glasses anyway. I’m trying to keep a positive outlook through this – in fact, in a way I wish I was blissfully unaware of any of this shit.
If I was more negative I’d say HQ should fire the douchebags at the helm and do a better job trying to anticipate what’s coming down the pipe. What happened to excellence and virtuosity?
Is this really surprising?
Take a bunch of goof-offs that don’t know anything about training, put them in charge, and then you wonder what happened when they turn into screaming psychos?
Note: creating a cult that discourages critical thinking and makes everyone into an expert because they have the best Fran time doesn’t work out too well
I hear that giving screaming idiots control of a fitness organization leads to laughs?
PS popularity means CF is good? turns out lots of stupid people like stupid things, news at 11
Dude, you’re soooo melodramatic. I like Greg’s Backpedal BTW.
This is great stuff. Very entertaining.
Here’s an idea:
Partner with Gym Jones, and call it “Jones Fit”. Have Greg E play the role of Burgener, you be the nutrition guy, Dan John can do the barbell program, and have the “Norcal Games”.
I’m simply being absurd because that’s what’s going on at this point!
Smiles and sayonara,
Rick-
What gym do you own?
An alternate Level 1 cert is genius BTW. It would involve these wacky things called “Barbells” and “DumbBells” It would focus on the core movements like squat, DL, press and push press. It would encompass sound programming with a periodized model, bioenergetics and science based nutrition, not numerology. It would involve staff who have trained people for years and have extensive educational backgrounds…let’s see here, Greg everett as the OL guy, Rip as the barbell guy, tucker or Coach sommer as the gymnastics guy, and I’ll cover the geek stuff. Now…is that a better or worse product than the current offerings? What would the “MARKET” discern as providing better value for the dollar?
And in the spirit of Free Markets and Competition what exactly would be wrong with it? HQ is fine with certifying so many peopel that the market is getting saturated in in some areas destroyed. Why NOT several Level 1’s? HQ likes dictating the terms, they do not like living by those same terms. Unfortunately for you and the rest of the crew that will just remain a fearful fantasy, or the newest speculation you amoral tards use to defame me. Last time it was “Robb Wolf left to Join Mark Twight!!!” Now it’s “Robb Wolf and Greg Everett orchestrated the Black Box Summit to try to take over CrossFit!!!”
Sorry Greg, you will not get that adrenaline fix from me. You will have to get your high elsewhere.
Robb
just another voice of support – not that you need this by the numbers of comments. Suddenly Australia is not a bad place to apply this whole phenomenon that is Xfit…down under, out of the way…sad day for all. Greg/M2 – I’m with you on that prayer!
Its gone too far with Rick, whom I’m convinced is a HQ embed. As such, I think you should post the emails and “nuke ’em” as joeyboots put it.
Wow, Dave’s a douche. Doesn’t really seem to be a well kept secret either… I had my own Castro episode at my level 1 cert (I won’t go into detail but for the record, he owes me one month’s salary for a bet he lost, still waiting for that check to arrive). Anyways, Robb, you are a great source of info and I’m sure this won’t set you back in any way. HQ seems to be almost pitiable at this point, they’ve created a monster, they are desperately trying to control it and have no idea what to do. I do feel for them, their heart may be in the right place, just totally misguided. Que sera sera I suppose. So, I have two questions (if you don’t have time to answer, I get it, this is a busy day!) one, if you end up doing your own nutrition cert the same day would you allow people who weren’t signed up before to register with you/pay at the door? I live pretty close (Davis) and had planned on going but it sold out before I had the opportunity so this would be a cool way for me to get back in (and I’ll totally bring some good tequila!) and two, this is a little random but I was thinking it might be nice if you had a column or page that really outlined the fundamentals of the Paleo diet, how to get started, etc. Kind of like a paleo for dummies. There is a ton of info here and I search through it all the time but there’s so much that it can be tricky sorting out the info I need.
Thanks again and keep up the good work!
-Jesse
An Opinion about the BBS drama from a non-invested outsider……
Of course I wasn’t there and don’t know who said what and what context it was said ….(if they would release the videos then a lot of this nonsense could be resolved).
I’ll speak from my experience in the medical field and from the perspective on my own business model on difference of opinion and leadership.
On differing opinions and science—Part A –unfortunately a lot of the bickering between CF and the people that have quit or have been sacked is opion based and what seems to be ego driven. In the medical field studies are published, results are scrutinized, papers are written, peer reviewed, and then debated. If findings are clinically significant then it is accepted as effective and implemented as a treatment option. Medicine progresses and evolves.
Part B – what seems to have developed is a chasm within crossfit. Those that want to achieve being fit and those that want to compete CF style at a competitive and “elite” level.
Part A/B – my argument is that CF mainsite is extremely effective for the majority striving to achieve fitness but may not or is not the “be all, end all” of training for CF type competitions. If OPT, Khalipa, and Mikko all say that their only training was main site programming and nothing else then I will stand corrected for being the “be all / end all” of training for competitions. But for CFHQ to say that our method is THE most effective and others are not is erroneous because of A,B, and C then they need to provide peer reviewed conclusive evidence to support their claims….until then it is just an opinion. Nothing more.
The claim of “open source” should be refined by HQ to clear any confusion. When I hear open source I think of Linux or Mozilla. These companies released a foundation code for others to manipulate and work with to make a better product which easily noted with the evolution of a better, faster, and more stream lined product. CF’s def of open source appears to be better defined as open to suggestion but any “unstamped” implementation of the CF product appears to be met with great resistance and persecution. (the recent fall-out and leavings of other former CF instructors).
Case in point. Diet. Obviously CF touts that Zone is the best and paleo is not. OK. If this is a science based product then let us read the peer reviewed papers comparing the two diets head to head……or at least review / study what the “top tier” athletes eat. I’m willing to bet an emphasis is placed more on quality than quantity but with proper ratios in mind. (hopefully no elite athlete at that level thinks a bag of spinach alone is a full meal)….what I’m eluding to is that is still opinion until a study is produced and published from a peer reviewed journal. To say one is better or more important than the other…I say show me the evidence.
If CF as a corporate entity wants to adopt zone as their recommended diet then great. That is what they choose but it is not exactly open source as they tout but more of opinion based on non-scientifically derived conclusions and to say differing ideas are not equal without any scientific merit to prove so is remiss and elitist.
If the trend of disregarding people and ideas with differing opinions continues within the CFHQ then I fear for the survival of the CF trademark. CF needs to accept that their predominant demographic is intelligent, objective, and motivated to find out what is best. Most people will not accept “It is the best b/c HQ said so”. Show us why…show us the comparisons of methodology. It is the information age. iInformation is out there and easy to get. People will make their own choices regardless of a HQ stamp or not. If the trend of people getting fired or leaving b/c they do not completely agree with HQ continues people will call “bullshit” about the projected open-sourced model and future claims will be and should be met with great skepticism.
The genie is out of the bottle about the effectiveness of mixed and varied training. If CFHQ does not evolve then I see no major advantage to paying the fees for the brand name.
I personally have benefited greatly from CF and remain appreciative for all the doors it has opened in my life….but I give most of the credit to great local coaching and ongoing discussion of what “may” work best within our gym.
I really hope that HQ understands the power of being open minded and respecting others opinions even if they do differ. If not and the trend of dictatorship continues then I fear greatly for the brand.
My 0.02
The “quality control” and “free market model” of the brand is a whole new discussion for a different day. In short….Can I really trust a person with no athletic background or training to properly teach me the snatch after a weekend seminar? If I’m taught incorrectly and dislocate my shoulder do to error in form or the inability of my instructor to limit my motion….then whose fault is it? Mine? The instructor? or HQ for “certifying” this person with no proof of understanding and ability to properly teach the concept?
Like I said…another note.
Kevin-
Hell of a post, thanks.
Rick,
I don’t understand why you condemn Robb Wolf and Greg Everett, who seemed to show remarkable restraint, while applauding Dave Castro. How is disrupting a presentation and “dressing down” a SME tactful or appropriate?
Just because someone is an operator, or a Navy Seal, or whatever does not mean their shit dosn’t stink. Showing the capacity to make it through a suck-fest like BUDs or any other selection process does not mean you are infallible, or even that you have good character. Many people have made it through selection processes and later turn out to have terrible character. For example, numerous men who went through elite military training programs only later to take part in domestic terrorist groups. In fact, the FBI has specifically had concerns with SEAL team members who have had significant contacts with white supremacist groups. I can dig up the articles on this if necessary.
I am in no way suggesting that this holds true for Dave Castro or the majority of operators, SEALS, special ops, and what have you. I am merely saying that the argument “Dave Castro is and Ex-Navy SEAL so he must be right” does not make sense.
I just wanted to touch base with the community and give them an update from CrossFit Cape Fear as we are slated to host the Robb Wolf nutrition Certification in Fayetteville NC on December 5th.
As everyone knows, Robb will not be teaching the certs anymore and to the best of my knowledge, neither will any of his crew. To say that I am extremely disappointed is an understatement, but, my personal thoughts and beliefs aside, I am having to think about the 70-plus students slated to arrive and hear about nutrition. CrossFit has issued a statement to all participants that they can get a refund on this certification if they so desire.
We will host the cert on Dec 5th in light of all this that has happened. Why? Two reasons… First, we made a commitment to host it and secondly, there are numerous folks coming from out of state that will lose their travel costs if we cancel and that just isn’t right.
So, if you are registered and wondering how all this is affecting the cert, we will be ready for you. At the moment, that’s all I know. I’ve not heard of who will be leading it, OR what their education and experience is, but as soon as I know more, I’ll post it.
All I can say is having met Robb at the 7th SFG cert a few years ago, his nutrition cert in Cherry Point, and personal conversations with him, whoever is presenting has got to be on their A-game. This is a pivotal moment for a lot of athletes and coaches.
Respectfully,
John Velandra
CrossFit Cape Fear
thanks for the update John, much appreciated.
Castro is a warrior, and frankly, I am thankful that we have guys like this on the front lines.
Running a business on the other hand is a completely separate matter, and in all honestly probably not the best thing for a warrior to be engaging in, literally walking into right off of the killing fields. I don’t see how he could separate the two worlds so easily.
Robb,
You’re always welcome down under mate. You’ve got the respect of many here. Drop me an email and we’ll set up a Nutrition gig for next year. I’m sure there will be opportunities around the country at many of the other affiliates too.
About this whole affair. (By the way, I wasn’t there and as an affiliate didn’t even know about it. I have read various different accounts though and would be interested to see the vid)
Anyway, I’m sure Dave Castro nor anyone else gives a shit about my views, but as an affiliate owner, I’m disgusted by the behaviour of some of CF Inc’s staff.
I have had dealings with Dave Castro, in person and via email. In short, I wasn’t impressed. He and CF Inc managed to offend many operators from arguably one of the best and most respected Special Forces units in the world on their visit down under last year. Not cool. That’s all I’ll say.
Fortunately, the CF methodology and CF Inc are two entirely different beasts. I love the methodology but have reservations about CF Inc. And yep, I’m an affiliate and have been for some time.
JD
Robb,
Never met you, but was registered to go to your cert on the 31st at your gym. Its really sad to see how things have transpired. I was looking forward for the cert, but since you’re no longer running them, I asked for my money back. I’ll be looking forward to your book and your seminar when they become available.
Let’s put this whole spat in perspective folks. In 2004 Tiger Woods got pissed off at his swing coach, Butch Harmon, for calling him out publicly for saying that Tiger was in denial that he was in denial of the problems in his game and that he needed to fix his swing yet again. This pissed Tiger off so much that he fired Harmon, who had worked as Tiger’s coach since 1993.
Later that year Tiger hires Hank Haney to coach him. Guess what good ol’ Hank tells Tiger? “You need to fix your swing”. Tiger was upset with the publicity that Harmon drew to himself by talking about his swing to the media. He was also in denial about the break down in his mechanics. Think about it, we are talking about a guy that is getting paid 100 million dollars a year. He is the absolute best there has ever been in his sport and his coach is telling him that his mechanics are wrong.
The gist of the story is Tiger ultimately comes around and realizes he was being a pompous ass and makes up with Harmon. But by that time his new coach had fixed his swing and Tiger was winning Major Tourneys again so it was easy for him to see he was in the wrong.
I think we are seeing something similar here. People become defensive of what they have built. This is especially true when they are in the public eye. Hopefully, CFHQ will come around and realizes that by listening to constructive criticism they will be a better and stronger movement.
In this story capitalism will rule day and we will see the true winners in a couple of years. It will be an interesting read when it is all said and done.
If Dave Castro called Greg Everett a “fat fuck”…..what would he call his boss Coach Glassman????
Robb – sorry to hear how you were treated. Just run your own seminars and keep the $$$ yourself. Will be way less of a headache – and you can really say what you like.
I thought CrossFit was open source…..hmmm…doesent sound like they are practicing what they are preaching. Very dissapointed in HQ. Dave should be fired.
When I got my Level I cert in March of 2006, Dave Castro was one of the instuctors. My impression of him was that he was an immature 21year-old punk who just graduated BUDS and was feeling cocky because he was a SEAL. He even managed to piss off Nicole during the cert, and there was obviously tension between the two. I’m former military SOF, so I asked a couple SEAL friends of mine if they knew Dave from the West Coast teams, and I learned that he was closer to 30, had been in the Navy for a good while, and was not well-liked or well-respected in the SEAL community.
Coach Glassman, if you’ve dropped Greg and Robb and kept Dave because of business value, you made the wrong choice. Apologize and invite them back, because Dave Castro is only going to bring more trouble for you.
“It would involve staff who have trained people for years and have extensive educational backgrounds…let’s see here, Greg everett as the OL guy, Rip as the barbell guy, tucker or Coach sommer as the gymnastics guy, and I’ll cover the geek stuff.”
Sign me up for that course.
Some observations from a Crossfit newbie:
1. From my limited experience I knew Robb was in the Paleo camp, not the Zone, CFHQ never realized this to now? Dave should not have been surprised at Robb’s comments on nutrition.
2. Hanging around the Crossfit forums I’ve seen threads get locked or even “disappear” at times when someone raises a question about Crossfit that could be taken as being critical. Someone usually asking “why x when y looks more effective”?
I’ve seen Coach Glassman speak and he gave a great speech on fitness that got me interested in doing Crossfit. But any business/organization needs to look at best practices and see if there is a way to do things better. If not, someone else is doing that and they will leave you in the dust.
Wayne-
Yes, but WHY was I in that camp? I experimented for years with basic Zone concepts and I found them less productive than Paleo concepts for everything from autoimmunity to athletic performance. I’ve detailed many examples of this on the blog. I tried to engage in constructive conversations about this and was hammered down. The friction came from an unwillingness on the part of HQ to evolve the program. this was the same thing which drove Rip out of the group.
Robb, Greg, and I have been corresponding off-line, and I have a few thoughts. First off, both Greg and Robb are going to remain CrossFit affiliates. In my understanding–and Greg commented on this specifically at Performance Menu–they do this not particularly because of the CrossFit name, per se, but because of the sundry benefits that membership in this community creates for them. They care about you all, personally, and frankly the supplements they are able to offer to Main Page–the new contacts they generate through word of mouth in this community–is good business for them. Both are relevant, and I wouldn’t question that for a moment. I have great respect for both of them. Both will continue to be viewed by many as Subject Matter Experts, and will be in positions to offer seminars.
What we need to remember, here, is that Dan John did not create the CrossFit community. This is not to say he hasn’t provided a lot of valuable information and motivation to many people. Mark Twight did not create this community, even though no one CAN question his credentials as an elite alpinist, and as the manifestly successful trainer of many people.
Coach Glassman created this community. He provided the underlying theory that held it all together. He developed the templates for teaching functional movements executed at high intensity, and varied constantly if not randomly. He initiated the CrossFit Certifications. His excellent public speaking skills are both highly motivational and informative, and I don’t think anyone who has seen him in action can deny that.
Virtually none of you would be here, complaining, were it not for Coach Glassman. I see no credible reason why it would be possible to conclude otherwise. Did you all not get to this link through the CrossFit Message Board, or through Robb’s blog? Absent CrossFit, I never would have heard of or met Robb, and the same would apply to most of you.
Absent CrossFit, I doubt seriously Robb would have started his gym when he did. It had, as he stated then, been a long term dream of his, but I wonder (and Robb can speak to this) if he would have had the confidence to do it without the encouragement, help, and template Coach Glassman provided.
To be perfectly honest, it sounds like Dave was out of line here, even if Greg was egging him on in subtle or not-so-subtle ways. Today is Thanksgiving, and for many of us it calls to mind both happy moments, and moments of extreme tension, family fights, and even physical assaults (although in my own case, my experience is limited to yelling and screaming along the lines we are discussing here).
CrossFit is often accused of being cultish because for many of us this mode of working out is life changing. It makes us tougher, more resilient, and of course much fitter, physically. We call Coach Glassman “Coach”, which I suppose for many looks suspiciously like “Guru”.
We expect dramas in business. Bill Gates is notorious for the vicious tongue lashing he metes out to people he perceives as incompetent and wrong. No doubt this basic tendency is played out among entrepreneurial enterprises around the world. Creation and management are two different things. The personalities that create something from nothing are very often not those that take something that exists, and maximize efficiency. That’s what they teach Business School grads.
What do we have here? Somebody flying off the handle. I’ve seen that at my own work, and not seen those responsible fired. I’ve been sworn at myself (which I usually deserved, since I have a tendency to ignore rules I don’t like) repeatedly. For those of you in the military, have you never been dressed down in public? One hopes not, but it happens.
For those questioning Dave, I can say for certain that he WAS a trainer when he was in the service. That was his job, day to day.
The hurt feelings, here, result from the widespread perception that in some basic way, the CrossFit Community was immune from the silly dramas that happen in businesses and homes around the world every day. That we were, necessarily and constitutionally, unique.
Why would this be? Can a system really have been developed that eliminates ALL negative human behavior whatever? Can we really be thinking Coach Glassman is a saint, when it is quite possible to read negative information about Mother Teresa, Gandhi, Einstein, and whoever else you want to sanctify?
What remains, at the end of the day? The people with whom you have bonded BECAUSE of Coach Glassman, and the fitness system you love, and were introduced to (in almost all cases) as a result of the work of Coach Glassman.
Whining is easy. Creating is hard. For my loving fans, see you a week from Saturday. Happy Thanksgiving!!!!!
I agree with you Robb, you should ALWAYS be examining what you are doing, applies to everything in life. If a better way presents itself, change. Denial or apathy will kill an organization.
Robb,
The crazy thing about all of this is that you don’t “bash” the Zone at all. I’m sure you have MUCH respect to the work Barry Sears has done over the years and think the Zone has it’s merits. You have simply found that after years of trying different methods that eating grass fed meats, wild fish, veggies, some fruit, nuts and seeds , while cutting out gluten and sugar work better than any other way you have tried. Also, as you say in your lecture, it’s uncomplicates things. I would think that the empirical data you have gathered with clients over time, both from a weight loss and performance perspective, would be something HQ would be thrilled to examine. You have also made it clear that if an unweighed and measured paleo isn’t helping shed those last couple of lbs, then going “weighed and measured” is the next step. Why is this such an issue with HQ. Very bizarre. Almost as bizarre as defending the merits of a medball clean…but not quite.
I personally think Crossfit has an excellent concept going, but remember it is, in the end, all about the money. If you have noticed Barry Sears has been all over the crossfit site recently, with his webinar and what not. If they have worked out some kind of deal with him to co-promote the Zone with Crossfit it would make sense that they would want to protect that investment. Just because it is not ideal for the athlete doesn’t mean its not ideal for crossfit HQ.
The fact that they had a blow out with Robb over it before discussing the party line with him is just poor management. If they wanted a Zone centric push for commercial reasons, then they should have told Robb this in private and if he didn’t feel comfortable with it, they could have found someone else.
My 2 cents.
Disclaimer: I am a mere law student half way through my second year… although I did have the highest GPA in my year including the highest grade in Contracts.
***
In response to the people wondering about whether or not they have a right to/can get their money back.
I believe that the change of instructors constitutes a material, and possibly total, breach of contract by HQ, and probably entitles registrants who have paid to get a refund.
When performance under a contract is due, any non-performance is a breach. But not all breaches give rise to a claim for damages. With respect to performances to be exchanged under an exchange of promises, a breach by non-performance gives rise to a claim for damages *only if* it discharges the injured party’s remaining duties to render such performance.
In determining whether an injured party’s duty to render performance is discharged, the materiality of the breach is significant. In determining the materiality, the following factors can be significant, among others: (1) the extent to which the injured party will be *deprived of the benefit which he reasonably expected,* (2) the likelihood that the party failing to perform will cute his failure…, and (3) the extent to which the *behavior of the party failing to perform comports with standards of good faith and fair dealing.*
Here, performance of a contract is due: the contract between CFHQ and the registrants to provide a nutritional certification in exchange for payment. While I believe most of the parties here have already paid for their certification, and thus the issue of excusing their performance is moot in that regard, it is still relevant for determining whether the HQ’s “breach” was material, and total.
Here, it is quite obvious that the registrants will be deprived of the benefit they reasonably expected. The nutrition certifications were built around advertising Robb Wolf, and it is fair to say that “most,” if not all of the, registrants were motivated to attend by Robb himself. The “benefit” they are deprived of is learning from Robb. Additionally, the likelihood that HQ will cure it’s failure (failure being not having Robb actually do the “cert”) is, safe to say at this point, nill. Lastly, there is a good argument that HQ has not acted in good faith in carrying out the agreement, for obvious reasons.
The other factors relevant to determining whether or not this is a “total breach” giving rise to damages are not really applicable to this situation (the extent to which it reasonably appears to the injured party that delay may prevent or hinder him in making reasonable substitute arrangements, and the extent to which the agreement provides for performance without delay). However, there are no substitute arrangements here (yet), and in looking at these factors for determining whether a breach is total, no one is determinative on its own.
A material breach may be enough in this situation for a claim of damages (ie, a refund). If it’s not, it’s a good argument.
However, *even if* CFHQ has breached a contract giving rise to damages (a refund), and *even if* registrants have a right to a refund, who is going to force HQ to give them one? They can keep the money and do whatever they want: the only remedy would be a lawsuit, and the only feasible one would be a class action due to the relatively small amounts at stake to each individual.
So unless people are planning on suing HQ, they’ll have to bear the loss on this one.
Robb,
Seriously, take the criticism from HQ for what its worth. Obviously the commercialization of CrossFit training is now taking precedent over effectiveness and education with certainly a lucrative result. As an MD who took your Nutrition Cert, I appreciate your methods and honest desire to find the truth. While the Zone may have merits for the average American gorging themselves with excessive bread and pasta and wondering why their wasteline is growing, so too the Elliptical is a better choice for the average inactive adult than their current lifestyle. The issue is what is MOST effective and that’s what you’re about, we’re just glad you didn’t “sell out” to the “Commercial CrossFit” product being peddled to the uneducated masses over the last 2 years.
I’ve been around CrossFit just over 3 years, have ZERO financial interest in any of this, truly believe in most of the tenets originally espoused by CFHQ, and really enjoyed the diversity of trainers and trainees I’ve met at the 4 Certs I’ve attended. I took those courses and continue to read and watch videos not to train clients (I train myself, my wife and my kids) but to learn to do it RIGHT!! However, the mindset and goals of this organization changed significantly during that time, funny what a little financial greed can do to a once honest and altruistic search for elite fitness. Maybe we should coin it “The Globo-gymanization” of CrossFit! Sad.
Before anyone asks, releasing or not releasing any emails will not be a decision I have to make, since Robb has decided that what is best at this point is to simply move forward, and not reopen issues that were closed 2 or more years ago. This is likely a good decision.
Let us suppose, though, that they contain very vicious, personal attacks on someone who may or may not have deserved it, likely the latter. Would this tell us “CrossFit”, per se, is no good? No. Would it tell us that Coach is prone to fits of anger? Yes. Is he unique in this? Not in my experience. I had the owner of one company I worked for tell me–to my face–that I was an “effing pussy” for fighting for some money out of which he had, in effect, cheated me.
Clearly, going off reflects, often, a character flaw. It does not in any way reduce, however, the positives of which that person is equally capable. Was Chesty Puller a saint? I haven’t read his biography, but the mere facts that he was a hard charging type A, and that he was a member of the species Homo Sapiens, tells me that whatever detractors he had found ammunition with which to charge him of whatever offense they deemed suitable, likely with some justification, to which his supporters would have offered in defense his long and stellar record of getting the job done.
When you are in your boxes, wherever they are, you can do whatever you want. You can do Starting Strength. You can ignore Med. Ball cleans. You can do Paleo, Zone, the Pritikin Plan, or Power Eating. Up to you. Nobody is there watching you every day.
This is the benefit of the Affiliate system, and to my mind the most valid, business oriented objection is that if you are running an Affiliate, how you do things is your own damn business, as long as they are based on CrossFit ideals of randomized, high intensity training with functional movements, all of which are open to very broad interpretation.
If they want to demand specific routines, diets, exercises, etc, then they need to call it a franchise, and lay out the specifics. It can’t go both ways, and frankly I too would be chomping at the bit if I were simultaneously being told I had complete freedom, and then being told I had to do things a certain way.
In this case, it sounds like two highly opinionated people butted heads. As I have shared with some high placed people at HQ, I think this is a learning opportunity. It is always better to reform something that exists, than to create something brand new.
The obvious direction, to me, is that of increased latitude for the Affililates to find their own ways, which would include diverse opinions on biomechanics and diet.
Apparently they’re giving refunds no questions asked… so last post is now moot.
As professionals, we have an obligation, always, to do what is best for the people we influence, regardless of any dogma or politics.
One last thought, then I’m likely done. Two, actually.
First, I wanted to openly apologize to Robb and Greg for suggesting other than honorable motives on their part. There are still pieces of this puzzle I’m lacking, but my speculations seem to have been largely or wholly off-base.
Second, I wanted to point out that there are a LOT of people out there gunning for CrossFit, simply because of the success we have enjoyed. For example, I see a lot of big guys out there saying we don’t do enough strength work for their taste. This is true. They don’t run enough for our taste. But what is the point in saying your goals differ from GPP, then bashing CrossFit for not meeting them?
Everyone is free to program things however they want. A lot of people are doing this Buy-in/WOD/Cash out system, where you do both Max Effort strength training and metcons on a regular basis. This seems to have merit. You see it on Affiliate pages all over.
But trying different approaches is different from trying to claim CrossFit fails in some parameter it is not trying to meet in the first place. The Main Page is fine, as far as I know, for thousands of people overseas, who are NOT training for the Games. And self evidently, people who are training for the Games have got to do more than the Main Page. If someone has claimed otherwise, please link to it.
So there are really multiple angles here. We likely have imprudent, abusive behavior being excused by HQ. We have lost a good resource as far as Nutrition. On the flip side, it seems likely we have a lot of people at HQ feeling under attack by a lot of people whose main intent seems to be to cause harm and mayhem. This does not seem to have applied to Greg, and Robb was out of it entirely, as far as I can tell. His participation seems to have been limited to arguing in favor of unweighed Paleo, and trying to referee an argument.
But you can’t explain Dave’s reaction without consideration of that fact. Many, many people want CrossFit to fail, for many, many different reasons. In trying to understand ANY situation, all of the factors in play have to be included in any serious analysis.
It’s a crappy situation. It will pass, one way or another. I’d encourage you all to remember the things you love, and forget about events thousands of miles away that have little to no impact on what you do every day.
Barry-
I appreciate the post. I’d have to say there are a ton of people who wanted to see CF succeed like nothing else. HQ has systematically run them off when improvements on the brand were suggested.
This is unbelieveable, screw HQ! they are to damn cocky for their own good. I love crossfit, but when i hear shit like this it gets me very frustrated. Out of everyone, Dave should get kicked from the crossfit community, but as we all know that will never happen. Rob I agree 100% with you about the paleo diet, im a diabetic, and have drastically reduced my insulin levels since eating correctly, and as you have stated my performance has gone through the roof as well. Greg Everett also made excellent point, form is the most critical point of all olympic lifts. Using correct form is only going to help your performance. If HQ doesnt want to be more open to ideas, and cant take criticism well, then they will be something of the past. Hopefully, they can change, and they can start by straightening Castro out!
Robb,
this might not mean much to you as I am just a student from Germany doing CrossFit (my own programming) and following you’re homepage aswell as Greg Everetts’ performance menue with great interest and admiration.
I personally have nothing to do with CrossFit HQ nor it’s staff. But I have followed CrossFit’s developement for about 4 years now. I have to say that I have always wondered how the Glassman’s could built such a huge empire showing so little professionalism on certain business topics as well as on choices on personal. When I watched the CrossFit Games 2007 movie “Every Second Counts” I was shocked by the way Dave Castro acted in the movie. I thought he had an anger management problem when I saw him reacting on the “bumping clean situation”.
I was also shocked when I saw the Glassmans. They didn’t look like they had practiced what they preached for a long time… not even the nutritional part. To me they looked like lottery winners who didn’t know how to spend all the money they got (boob jobs?), but surely not like professionals of any kind.
I have also followed the so called “Couch Thread” and the open dissing of GreySkull. Neither one seemed very professional to me.
I believe that excellence will always win in the end. Being unprofessional is not my definition of excellence.
On the other hand what you, Greg Everett, Mark Rippetoe, Mike Burgener and many, many others do, seems very professional and excellent to me!!
I have done my Level I Cert this summer and thought about opening an affiliate in Germany after finishing my studies at university. I’d still love to open a box, but I become and more alienated by HQ’s behaviour and I know I’m not the only European who is thinking like that.
I know you and Greg will keep up the good work and will still have a huge impact on the CrossFit Community because what you do is excellent and the manner in which you are doing it, is a professional one!!!
As I said, this might not be very important to you, as we don’t know each other and I am just a very small and unimportant light in the CrossFit world. But I needed to show some support!
As for the Castro situation, this is apparently far from the first time he’s alienated and antagonized SMEs and average CFers alike. The fact that he keeps on repeating this sort of behavior means that he hasn’t been reprimanded strongly enough by Glassman or HQ for his past blowups–which essentially means they’re condoning his behavior and saying it’s acceptable for the #2 or #3 man in an organization to act like this. That sort of trend doesn’t bode well for CF Inc.
My vote? Run nutrition seminars on your own. You do an awesome job and you know that people NEED to hear this stuff. I attended your cert in Edmonton and I was blown away by your knowledge, passion and dedication. I know many people post about the impact your nutrition information has, but experienceing it myself and seeing the impact on my family, friends and clients is truly amazing. Thanks for that.
Whatever happens with HQ-I’m sure you would still have many followers. People need to remember to have humility and be open-minded by listening to opinions that differ from their own, otherwise, how does any idea/program grow?
I think you need your diaper changed..So your whiney ass got fired for going rogue on the company and now you wanna bitch..You probably sleep with the light on and voted for Obama,,you tree hugging bitch…boohoo..you’re a fag.
No, Barry Cooper, people think its a cult because anytime someone says something critical, it’s always swept under the rug. Like what you are doing. Why not post those emails? Why not let people decide for themselves? Grow a backbone.
Barry,
Does Glassman’s attack on a SME affect the efficacy of CrossFit? In a word, possibly.
Glassman has said many times that CF was and continues to be developed upon the advice of and with the direct input of various SME’s. Now what happens if he starts selecting his SME’s based on how much money CFHQ stands to make, or how willing the SME is to toe the company line and not suggest changes/improvements, or put up with vicious personal attacks. What if he rejects change from his SME’s for reasons other than efficacy?
Would it really be so hard to imagine the following scenario: 1) Glassman on his own tries various diets and finds the Zone works most often 2) Glassman recommends the Zone to all CFer’s 3) CF explodes in popularity 4) Sears recognizes the huge market potential in CF and works a deal with Glassman (which is beneficial to both because they both believe in the product) 5) high profile members of CF suggest alternatives to the Zone 6) Sears is not impressed and Glassman cracks down 7) the Zone is taught as the best and possible only diet approach for CF’ers 8) instructors who have little knowledge on diet instruct participants who have less knowledge about the zone and tell them if you’re creative enough you can accomplish it with chips, hotdogs and beer. By the time we reach step 8 the community as a whole and CF specifically have been poorly served as a direct result of Glassman’s ‘vicious personal attacks’.
Was Rippetoe better for CF than DJ, and will Tate or Simmons be better still? What about their replacement? Is Tucker better for CF than Harell or Sommer? I have no idea, but it seems to me as an outsider who only hears snippets here and there, that none of these SME’s left CF because of a lack of knowledge or coaching skills. So if CF becomes the amalgamation of SME’s chosen or affiliating for reasons other than knowledge or coaching skills then yes, CF is lesser for it.
I also will take issue with your statement that people want CF to fail just because it is successful. Personally I wanted CF to succeed and become even more popular. I used to constantly preach it’s benefits to everyone. What turned me off completely was not the system itself but the antics of Glassman and the attitudes of the ever increasing number of jackases involved in the community. I still do the program, modified for my goals, but don’t participate in the community at all. Maybe I’m only a study of one but the ‘they’re just jealous’ argument seems disingenuous. Yess CF and Glassman have thier detractors, but how much of that has been due just to success vs. Glassmans’ actions. I don’t have any numbers but Taibo and P90X seem pretty popular and noone seems to hate Blanks or Horton. Popularity itself does not always breed contempt but popularity and an eff you attitude sure do.
Could the reason that nothing happens with Castro is that they own the ranch?
I have now read all 425 or so comments that came before this, and all of the source material.
I am an affiliate owner (CrossFit East Bay in Oakland CA) and I know or have met many of the principals here. Greg Glassman changed my life, and while I don’t revere him as anything more than a fitness visionary, it is, to me, frankly ridiculous how little credit some people are giving him. I will post below his best response to such misunderstandings. For once, I largely agree with Barry Cooper, above.
I am a bit older (43) and have been into fitness since the 1980s. I used to read every fitness mag I could get my hands on for, I guess, decades. I NEVER saw anything remotely like CF. I never heard of a double-under, a muscle-up, a kipping pull-up, a dynamax ball (or wall-ball), a thruster, a kettlebell, the zone diet, paleo, IF, tabata, etc etc etc. I was vaguely aware that rings existed and that these weird guys in tights lifted huge funny looking weights in the Olympics, and that a rower existed, but it never occurred to me to use these things. I never saw anything remotely like Fight Gone Bad, and I challenge anyone to point me to something like it that pre-dates CrossFit. When I discovered CF in 03 or 04 it really blew my mind, but not until I trained with Josh and Keith at CF Black Box, the 18th affiliate.
As I said I am a bit older, and have an administration background as well. I am disappointed in what I am seeing here from all sides. There is a whole lot of dick-measuring and airing of grievances, old and new, going on. While there may have been some pent-up feeling that needed to be discharged, it has been done, the issues are out there, and, as an affiliate owner and member of this community I ask that we take a deep breath and dial it back a notch on all sides.
This community has experienced explosive growth, and I think it is silly to pretend there are no issues. A med ball clean might not be the best progression to the clean. Teaching someone with zero experience how to snatch with a PVC pipe does not prepare them optimally to teach the snatch. The explanation that it is impractical to use barbells with so many people does not hold water. Inconvenient, yes, expensive, yes. Impractical, no. It is possible that the current programming template of .com could be improved. It is clear that a whole foods diet is healthier than Zone, Pringles, Coors Lite and Skirt steak (personally I think zone/paleo + milk is the way to go). The level 1 Cert is not as valuable a product as it was when Coach taught them himself (I have been to both versions). The .com only to prepare for the games is not optimal unless one already has perfect balance in all 10 areas of fitness. Even then training once a day to prepare for a multi-day multi-event competition would be insanity.
Recently one of my athletes started training the O-lifts with Greg Everett. This forced me to recognize that what I had learned so far in CF regarding the O-lifts was demonstrably inferior (but still an order of magnitude better than what I knew before CF, i.e. zilch). I admitted my sub-optimal teaching to my athletes and we are now working on improving our O-lifts, but not at the expense of GPP or not following a .com-like template.
Greg Glassman and CrossFit have given us all an incredible gift, for which I am truly thankful, but they have started a wildfire which cannot be easily managed, nor is that necessarily a bad thing. E-Bay was started on a wing and a prayer – basically not even a beta product thrown out there, and then the owners started reacting to every piece of feedback they received and built a killer app. Their community base is the basis of their success and they jealously build, guard and protect it. CrossFit should do the same. Listen. Grow. Evolve.
I know Greg Glassman and I believe in him as a businessman, fitness visionary and really just a good down-to-earth guy. I have had my issues with HQ and I know this is not the kindest gentlest organization on earth, but given what we do doesn’t that make a certain amount of sense?
Now, goddammit. Let’s chalk to the elbows and get back to working out. See you in the garage.
Maximus Bernard Lewin
Owner, Lead Trainer
CrossFit East Bay
[email protected]
510.910.2919
“I challenge anyone to point me to something like it that pre-dates CrossFit.”
Take a look at the Russian off-season training program for elite track and field athletes from 1920-1970. It’s Crossfit, pretty much exactly, with all those elements.
And there was a reason that they dropped it in the 1970’s… not specific enough. Good enough for Joe Public though, so it’s great that it’s been packaged up for all us plebs, but i am getting sick and tired of hearing everyone say that Glassman’s a genius for “inventing” it.
Out of curiosity, are there any examples that can be provided where HQ was open to suggestions and implemented a change to policy, procedure, programming, philosophy, etc., based on affiliate feedback and/or evidence of a better way of accomplishing a given objective even if it contradicts currently held policy? (“Evidence-based” examples of actual change.) If so, has proper credit been given to the source? What evidence exists to show that CrossFit will evolve and grow? Are there any examples of them changing policy based on affiliate and/or SME feedback and suggestions? I know a lot of requests are made for affiliates to contribute their ideas, suggestions, feedback, etc., and a lot is said about how much input affiliates have, but that all means nothing if change does not occur based on the feedback. If change is not actually implemented all the requests for feedback do is supply the illusion that affiliates/SME’s have influence and provides a false sense of control/power.
Something occurred to me about this situation; it reminds me of similar situations I have encountered in my personal life. Specifically, trying to change alcoholics who are in denial and don’t want to change (I am NOT calling anyone an alcoholic, so please do not misconstrue what I am saying.) I have tried too many times in my life to change people who in reality don’t want to change despite their claims to the contrary. It is a waste of time and energy better spent elsewhere; that is obvious intellectually, but when you care about someone (for many, CrossFit in this case) that is harder to accept emotionally. Maybe as a new affiliate part of the reason I am loath to try and contribute to and effect change in a company that does not show any real evidence of being amenable to change is I have learned the hard way it doesn’t work and have wasted too much time in my life in similar futile pursuits. A lot of people make the argument that it makes more sense to stay and be a positive influence for change, but that implies that the system wants to change and will do what it needs to do to change. You cannot change anyone who doesn’t want to change no matter how sincere your desire and honorable your intentions. Accept them for who they are, acknowledge what you do like about them, decide what you will and will not accept and what you will and will not compromise on, and when need be distance yourself from their self destructive tendencies until they are genuinely ready, willing, and able to change, IF they ever are, and they may never be. Determine what you are and are not getting from the relationship and evaluate if the costs are worth the benefits. If you do decide to continue to associate with them, then you cannot blame them when they fail to meet your expectations. Some people choose to stay with alcoholics, have realistic expectations, and find some measure of peace within the relationship; others stay but they have unrealistic expectations (and misguided hope) and they eventually become resentful and bitter. Others determine the relationship doesn’t provide enough benefit to justify the expense and walk away. Perhaps it’s not a good analogy, but something about it seemed relevant to me. I hope I don’t come across as preachy, that’s not my intent. Just sorta talking out loud and sharing my view for what it’s worth.
All this talk of alcohol has made me thirsty, I’m gonna have a drink.
Have a Happy Paleo Thanksgiving!
“I never heard of … a thruster … … and I challenge anyone to point me to something like it that pre-dates CrossFit.”
Easy enough. How about combining a squat followed by a press.
Justin
Art Devany mentioned the thrusters pre CF. Like 99 or earlier.
A few things need to be clarified here:
1. The basics of the CrossFit concept existed long before CrossFit. I work out at a gym that has produced TONS of actual, elite athletes using very similar methods… For decades. Anyone who has ever worked out with collegiate wrestlers can tell you that they’ve seen the same stuff, forever.
2. Glassman is not a pure philanthropist. He is a businessman, and he is banking BIG off of CrossFit. Every time I dealt with CFHQ as an affiliate, I was treated like a nuisance for taking up their time… They always complained about how overworked they were and behaved as if it was a giant, pro-bono project… (there was one VERY noteworthy exception: Lisa Lugo who was absolutely stand-up and really understood customer service.) As I understand it, this is how Glassman got a lot of chumps to work for free, for a long time, even when he was raking it in.
CrossFit is not a fucking charity. I swear, it makes me want to punch someone every time I hear about “how much Coach has given us.” he may post a free WOD and some random articles supporting his product, but there is no question that he is selling something.
Now, you as an affiliate or CrossFitter may really dig CrossFit, but do yourself a favor: stop acting as if you Glassman is just altruistically giving the shit away. You PAY him for it at some level: money for a cert’, affiliate fees, journal subscription, or even just word-of-mouth marketing (worth more than money.)
Barry
Your comments are so ridiculous. I wouldn’t be here complaining if it weren’t for “coach” glassman? How about Glassman wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for me. That is just another cultish mindset that you can’t-or more likely won’t- grasp. (Praise be to Glassman) You see, I paid 1,000 for a level 1 cert. To CFHQ and Glassman. Like everyone else who has done so, and built up the CF name through business patronage and taken so much care to spread the word about CF, the community is responsible for CF being huge, not Glassman. Robb Wolf created CF, Greg Everett created CF, the community created CF. CF created CF, not Glassman. Confusing a leader with a larger community is common in cults and fascist regimes. I quote that stupid nazi Hess who said “Die Partei ist Hitler, Hitler aber ist Deutschland wie deutschland Hitler ist. Hitler Sieg Heil” Sieg Heil indeed. In case you don’t read german, I’ll translate. “The party is Hitler! Hitler is Germany, as Germany is Hitler. Hitler Hail Victory!” Go watch it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubSTSICa7y8
And it looks like the community is getting shat upon. Interesting that you don’t see this. That you give all credit to Glassman is hilarious. Check this webpage, there are plenty more floating around though. http://www.howcultswork.com/
You are so condescedning towards anyone who criticizes, callling them whiners and complainers. Complaining is easy, creating is hard, as you say. You fail to understand that thinking critically-and articulating those critical thoughts-is hard, and it takes guts to stand up to bullies and the despotic. Agreeing with your boss is easy.
I’m going to comb through your post and point out what, exactly, smacks of cults. I could be here a while.
I also recall reading about thrusters (tho they were not called that) in a workout in IronMind. I’m going to see if I can locate the exact issue/workout.
SKelly USMC ret’d,
way to contribute to the discussion. you are obviously an uneducated moron who joined the military because you weren’t capable of doing anything else. why don’t you go blow something up you dipshit.
Before you all, including Robb, take the troll bait from Justin, above what I asked was:
“I never saw anything remotely like Fight Gone Bad, and I challenge anyone to point me to something like it that pre-dates CrossFit.”
I said nothing at all about thrusters except I had not heard of them pre-CF. I’m quite sure they existed for some time.
Robb, I know you interviewed Art at one time. How much CF comes from his ideas?
Brad-
I doubt that much, although Art’s old, old stuff had some interesting Fibonacci sequence type stuff reminescent of 21,15,9.
I don’t really like this tact, I think glassman came up with some damn innovative stuff. He obviously had influences, as do w all. The problem has always been the ARROGANCE. And this goes somewhat to the heart of what Barry was implying. People do not automatically want to see someone on top lose. Think about a champion like Randy Couture. Heart, courage and and almost palpable humility. Glassman has moments of genius and kindness which are swept away by a braggarts arrogance that makes people hate him and the concept of CF.
A couple of observations. All of these are based solely on Robb’s original post, so please excuse if I get something factually wrong.
1 – Robb Wolf was not fired from the nutrition certification. He quit. He told Dave Castro – not Greg Glassman, who he has a 10 year working relationship with, but Dave Castro – that he quit. After giving his verbal resignation, he cannot expect anything more from his former employer than a coordination regarding coverage of his remaining seminars.
2 – This was a long time coming, as Tony Budding commented. Robb refers to at least four simmering frustrations with Crossfit HQ: a) Greg Glassman’s attitude & actions toward Mark Twight, b) what use his RRG money is being put to, c) the training and scientific inexperience of Crossfit HQ staff and d) the endorsement of the Zone diet by Greg Glassman and Crossfit HQ.
If Robb Wolf is deeply opposed to what Crossfit HQ stands for, then he has two choices: continue teaching the nutrition seminar despite his disagreements, or offer his resignation. He was pursuing the first course of action until, in the heat of the moment, he quit. He did not quit because Dave Castro was acting like an asshole. That was just the catalyst. He quit because he has longstanding, fundamental disagreements with Crossfit HQ and its management style.
3 – That being the case, his angry, emotional blog post was not appropriate. Robb wanted to explain his decision to discontinue doing the nutrition seminars to his readers. He could have explained his professional disagreements with Crossfit HQ in a professional way. Instead, he explained his personal disagreements in a very personal way. He did exactly what Dave Castro apparently did: threw a temper tantrum in a public forum.
Latham-
Nice, try. The HQ spinocratti and really ben at it. If this had been the case then I would not have received a phone call from CF LEGAL saying “Greg old me to tell you you will no longer be doing the certs”, nor would Greg have released a statement…on Lisa Lugo’s Facebook page of all places, that it I was “let go”.
Keep trying, you guys might get something right eventually. The heart warming pice with Dave on .com is testament that HQ is just going to hunker in on this and do nothing. Everyone is now as complicit in Dave’s actions.
Hey, Barry. Why did you even say that about me in your post? I have no clue about what you are talking about. I read it and just wonder why you would even talk about me. Did I ever claim to invent the xfit community? Ever? Why would you bring my name up here? I like Robb. I support Robb. If Robb decides to remain with you all, God Bless Him.
Why the hell did you say that?
Barry-
If you want to talk to me about this, shoot me an email. If you want this stuff aired publicly, please take this over to .com
All-
As far as I’m concerned this topic is done. HQ is going to do nothing in this situation, fine, that’s their decision. It paints them more clearly than I ever could. I wanted a public explanation of what happened so when the defamation starts people have my side of things. I will not take what I did when we left crossfit in the past, I’ll defend myself this time. I’m going to make a post about an seminar to accommodate the folks affected by all this then I’d like the topic done.
Barry
I have to second Parker’s point – although only part of it and maybe without quite the same tone. Crossfit is what it is because of the people that do it and that talk about it, that convince their friends and co-workers to try it. Not the other way around. I’ve met Greg Glassman, I like him, we have some things other than Crossfit in common, but without the people doing Crossfit and the people paying for the certs., the journals, and the merchandise, Crossfit itself would still be a lonely webpage with a few gyms and some great content – like it was when I started.
This is larger than Robb and Greg and Dave. CFHQ – to keep goodwill and to keep the community, need to be more open about the controversial choices they make. If they wanted to fire Robb because (say) they have a deal with Sears and the Zone – they should have said that. They should have let Robb finish the certs that people had signed up for. People still would have been upset, but at least it would be in the open. Instead, HQ seems to have lost their minds. It’s the only reasonable conclusion to come to. Who runs a business like this – a business that is fundamentally tied to their clients goodwill?
For those of us that have been around for long enough to see multiple iterations of this – it’s frustrating and tiring. I love Crossfit, but I’m tired of the bullshit from HQ and I’m tired of having to defend it. I, for one, won’t give any more money to them, for the journal, the certs, to watch the games or to buy merchandise. I hope other people do likewise.
I am just really shocked by this whole situation. I am a fairly new crossfitter (since June 09) and have exp diff boxes already, either from where i started, Okinawa Japan, or by attending diff certs and talking with various ppl within the community and who operate the boxes and instruct. it’s just sad to hear things like this.
Currently i hav been attending Coach Rippetoe’s gym and have learned a lot of Oly n Barbell lifts that have improved my strength and skill that has let me Rx more WODs than i have ever done before. The knowledge i hav learned has been so important in my progression in my crossfit goals and when i start instructor.
I do know one thing for sure, being part of an organization for the past 15 years, that if/wen an organization fails or falls that leadership is ultimately responsible, period. Also, when ppl have multiple yrs of exp in their respected profession and professional training in it, (Robb and Greg), that im they know what the heck they are talking about and should be respected in regards to what they know.
In my comment above, please substitute “MILO” for “Ironmind.” I blame the Thanksgiving-induced carbcoma I must have been in for the mistake. 🙂
Maximus, I will agree with you on FGB . . . I had not seen a workout like it before I ran across CF; same goes for many of the “girls” workouts. Only fair to give credit where credit is due.
Maximus,
Interval Weight Training…. Mark Twight had a good article about it on his sight. Sorry, I can’t find it right now. I’m rushing off to work. Maybe someone here remembers it.
Basically, it included an excerpt from a book of training techniques for wrestlers from before Glassman was born… my memory is a bit fuzzy, so don’t quote me on it.
Yes, Maximus from CrossFit East Bay is correct, Glassman not only invented those exercises involved in FGB, but also invented circuit training.
Justin
Maximus Bernard Lewin,
I think your post was excellent and I do agree with you; however, that’s the point. Many of us who love CrossFit are interested in intelligent ADULT conversations about “how” to improve the product. You mentioned numerous areas in your post where the product could be improved and where YOU have improved it on your own. The issue is that when anyone such as yourself expresses those opinions or practices outside closed doors and in the presence (whether physically or virtually) of HQ or one of their emissaries, they are shamelessly attacked personally and profanely.
To me, as a physician and surgeon for 12 yr, leading 5 offices and a Surgery Center with over 70 employees, that is absolutey unacceptable in an organization this large with this much worldwide attention. We have some of the brightest minds in the health and fitness world contributing to our cause, why can’t they have a “Summit” to discuss what works on the front line without being attacked to the point of feeling the need to call Law Enforcement, by the very organization they were seeking to promote?
Yes, there are varying opinions about the “best” way to teach O-lifts, barbell lifts, prepare for the Games, build strength through CrossFit, and nutritional approaches. To me, with what I do on a daily basis, I welcome that, it makes us ALL better. The “one-size-fits-all” training protocol is as ridiculous as the “algorithmic” clinical models we see out there, it must be individualized to be most effective, studied, revisited, and tweaked continuously to produce the elite results we desire. I truly believe this applies to fitness just as much as it does to my practice of medicine and surgery.
Now, something else I agree with you on……enough of the talk LETS GO GET SOME!!!!
Jacob-
seriously, I’m over this!
Robb,
In your blog post you say you told Dave Castro “to take my high-paying nutrition gig and stick it up his ass.”
I may misinterpreting the statement, but isn’t that a verbal resignation?
Not when I said “If this is the way you are going to treat us then…”
The option was there for Dave and HQ. They wanted me out, they ran with the opportunity. And they handled all that as unprofessionally as one can imagine.
Latham…what about DAVE’S behavior…can you please comment on that for me? From the perspective of him being the 2nd in command of a “Fitness Juggernaut”.
The point is if crossfit is it is supposed to be the best combination of fitness, it never will be if it is never allowed to evolve. Setting something like exercise or nutrition in stone until the end of time may be good for business and make the certification and training process easier, but it will not ultimately benefit the crossfit athlete/customer which is what HQ should really care about.
Think about it, if in 3 years loads of new science combined with anecdotal evidence showed that high rep olympic lifting or kipping pullups led to many adverse health issues or simply were not as effective as performing another exercise all together, but crossfit continued using these exercises instead of something found to be safer/better, would crossfit really be looking out for the best interest of its community?
Robb,
the addition of “if this is way you are going to treat us” (which wasn’t mentioned in the original blog post) doesn’t change your statement very much. Dave probably was left the impression you delivered a verbal resignation.
I can’t endorse Dave’s behavior, but all he did was throw a tantrum. You can say that his behavior characterizes Crossfit HQ’s behavior in general, but that’s a separate issue. It’s not solely Dave’s tantrum at the BBS that caused you to tender a (conditional) resignation. I have already detailed a few of the many, many issues you have with Crossfit HQ, and you have mentioned more in the course of commenting on the post. Dave’s behavior is not relevant here, because he is not the cause of your resignation. If he is, then you need to reconsider. He’s only one man.
From everything in your original post and your following comments, you have had longstanding, profound disagreements with Crossfit HQ. Paleo vs. Zone appears to be the most important of these. From Crossfit HQ’s perspective, they probably knew a split was coming at some point. After all, how can Crossfit HQ’s primary nutrition guru promote ideas they disagree with? A contributor to the Journal, and the forums, absolutely, but the number one nutrition guy? It doesn’t seem workable. Dave heard a verbal resignation, and they jumped at the chance for a split. (That’s why it’s so much better to put tricky things like conditional resignations in writing. Dave probably heard what he wanted to hear, but you can’t blame him, without anything in writing. Except, of course, that your unconditional resignation is in writing on your blog post.)
I’m not convinced Crossfit HQ owed you more, given your clear personal dislike for Greg Glassman and Dave Castro, as expressed in the original blog post. You can’t have both a 10-year positive working relationship with someone, and also take a personal swipe at them on your blog. It’s one or the other. The personal swipe I’m referring to is when you accuse Glassman of never taking responsibility for his decisions.
In any case, I don’t understand why anyone’s even arguing about Paleo vs. Zone. Don’t the 100 Words of Fitness prescribe Paleo? 🙂
Latham-
I said this before, I’ll say it one more time. I left crossfit before in a silent protest of how things are run. I got my teeth kicked in and was slandered. I will not allow that to happen again. You are bright guy, drawing conclusions with limited intel. You will see that at some point. The facts are:
1-HQ legal contacted me and said I was done.
2-glassman posted a quasi-statement , via Lisa Lugo on facebook stating I was “let go”. The reason he did it there is they are trying like crazy for damage control in all this.
The fact there was longstanding “issues” was because of ongoing attempts to improve the product. I was canned for my efforts.
Robb is exactly right. Regardless of what you think of Crossfits methodology , Paleo vs Zone etc…. how can HQ not comment that their 2nd in command behaved the way he did? Absent that episode, Robb, Greg and HQ could have had their debate behind closed doors, the way adults usually do. Dave Castro is obviously a problem, and it’s stunning that he/hq hasn’t issued an apology for his behavior. Stunning. An organization where there are no checks and balances at the top is problematic.
Robb, wishing you the best as you move forward. After attending your cert and in our ensuing consults, I completely bought in the the Paleo lifestyle and have never felt better. Now I need to convince my old-school Italian Mom that lasagna isn’t on the program. Looking forward to your book. The podcasts are awesome!!!
Dan,
Some of the earlier posts seemed to be implying that what you offer is just as good as CrossFit, and by extension denigrating the virtues of the system. I intended to address that. In my view,what you offer is just different. It is meant for a different crowd. Much of what you offer can readily be integrated into CrossFit training, but the focal point is slightly different, in my view, from that of GPP. I am by no means implying that you yourself said otherwise. You clearly didn’t.
People seem to be missing my point. If your sole goal is learning to throw farther, Dan is categorically a better resource than CrossFit. If your goal is to get big and strong, CrossFit plus the Zone is NOT the best avenue. It may not even be a good avenue; actually, it probably isn’t.
Nothing is ADDED to our understanding by ignoring what Coach created, though. And in point of fact something is SUBTRACTED by equating Coach with Hitler. Manifestly, the National Socialist Party existed, and started a very large war. They had specific characteristics which INTELLIGENT well educated people would readily recognize do not apply here. The use of the Nazis for ad hominem attacks intended to distract people through their emotional power away from an otherwise empty position is the reason Godwin’s Law exists. That argument is made by and for dummies.
To this point here, the earliest WOD of which I have heard was one Coach Glassman’s dad Jeff had him do, approximately in high school, of a circuit of rowing and pullups. Coach Glassman took to personal training, and started teaching Olympic lifts and various circuits in a gym in LA, and got kicked out, in large measure because of his success (on his rendering, for his detractors, but this is an eminently plausible story).
He went to Santa Cruz, and started a little gym, which became a bigger gym. He and Lauren, daily, did personal training for paying clients. Their basic model was running, rowing, gymnastics, Olympic lifting, and powerlifting, excecuted at high intensity, in variable schemes. This was the model.
Gradually, they attracted more trainers, like Tony Budding and Nicole Carroll and Annie Sakamoto, who all had their own clients, and trained them day in day out. That’s how they made their money. There was a time not long ago–roughly 2002–when they did one Cert in a year. That was it. They did that, then went back to their day job of training clients, using variations of the CrossFit principles. I remember Coach telling me he could tell who programmed what WOD, since all the trainers had different styles and preferances.
When I went to Santa Cruz for my first Cert., it was three days, and the Cert’s were still very irregular, perhaps one every month or two. We didn’t have the Specialty Cert’s, and the affiliation system was just starting. That’s where I met Robb the first and only time I met him. Michael Rutherford was there, John Hacklemen was there, Coach Burgener, Mark Rippetoe, and many others.
Coach ran the show. It was abundantly obvious to all that while everyone there had a fitness background, a theoretical undestanding of circuit training (which may well go back to the Greeks, if not before; it is an obvious concept, in many ways–they called it Peripheral Heart Action in the early 60’s), and vague familiarity with most if not all the elements involved, no one there–NO ONE THERE–had put it together in just that way.
Who, anywhere, has tried to develop a system by which to teach masses of people proper biomechanics across so many modalities? Rip had a great business idea: teaching warehouse workers the deadlift so they wouldn’t hurt their backs. It was and is a good idea, but it never took off. But was he thinking about teaching people kipping pullups? Handstand pushups? Not likely, and certainly not in CrossFit type routines.
Now, you don’t need CrossFit to be fit. It is just a really, really good system, that never gets boring, since you can theoretically include any movement of which the human body is capable. To the point, this is a system which was developed by Coach–apparently on a hint given him by his father–and which grew up around him, first in the garage gym in Santa Cruz, and now globally. That gym in Santa Cruz was closed several years ago, and the gear shipped off to the Marines in Camp Pendleton, in what I think we can all agree was an act of generosity. If the goal was to propagate CrossFit in the Marines, the cynics can call it enlightened self interest, but that sort of thing is rare, nonetheless.
Coach Glassman could be making FAR, FAR more money than he is. Look at the potential revenue streams he controls. He could write a book. He could sell his stake to some large conglomerate for millions and walk away a very wealthy man and never look back. He hasn’t done that.
Obviously, for ANY human being, this would have to be partly about the money. Money makes people funny. But it does seem to me he has done his best to cling to his principles. Now, this is basically still a family run business, and families have fights about silly things. There are preferred sons, backroom deals, and ugly things that erupt in public.
Personally, I think it would be best if Robb were still teaching the Nutrition Seminars, and if he still has an interest, I think a white flag should be flown, a truce signed, and at least the ones done to which he has already committed. To do otherwise is a disservice not just to him, but to the Community.
At the same time, I think it is silly, in the heat of the moment, to forget who CREATED this community. I won’t back off of that. T-Nation is not CrossFit. Dragon Door is not CrossFit. And I can’t think of any other groups that would even be in the hunt.
And you all make it sound like CrossFit Brownshirts are beating down your doors to make you do medicine ball cleans when you don’t want to. The affiliates can do whatever they want. Maybe it doesn’t percolate back up to HQ. So what? Does that really matter to anyone but people like Robb? And is it not the case that if HQ is providing the crowd of paying customers, that they get the final say on what is taught? You can dispute their decisions–and I will say I don’t think this was a good one, based on the understanding I have been able to gather–but not their right to make it.
When you all go to your gyms today, or tomorrow, you can do anything you want. Inspired by THIS SYSTEM, in almost all cases, you will do things that the average Globo-Gym trainee could not even conceive of. You have dogs running around, and kids swinging on ropes. You’re flipping tires, and doing muscle-ups, and lifting weights that bounce.
It is not beyond the realm of possibility that a few people would be doing a lot of that–likely in their own garages–but not that a thousand affiliates would, absent Coach Glassman, and not housewives who are just trying to stave off the ravages of age. I see no rational way to claim otherwise.
As far as that goes, and I’ll leave it here, CrossFit has been a unique program as far as empowering women to be strong and tough. You do to any of these hardcore weightlifting sites, where tires and sleds are common, you just don’t see women. And you certainly don’t see middle aged women.
Never throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Where are all the affiliates in this? Almost everyone must know about it now. Are people so afraid of HQ that they will keep shut about it? Are the affiliates agreeing with the behaviour of HQ? I’ve seen a couple give their opinion. but there’s quite a few out there. I know this is a business and people care about their money, but what the hell….?
To me it seems like the only way to bring about change is to release “the emails” and “videos” out in the open. This will happen again for sure otherwise.
It was really a joke to see the vid today of Castro holding OPT’s hand.
That’s odd…not sure what happened to my post. Well if it shows up twice oh well.
Robb,
You did not indicate in your original blog post that your resignation was conditional. I would guess, given the tone of the conversation, that Dave left thinking he had received your verbal resignation. This is why it is always better to deliver tricky things like conditional resignations in writing.
Since you did not offer your resignation in writing (with the exception of the unconditional resignation you described in your original blog post), you can’t blame Dave for interpreting your words as a resignation. I am sure he heard what he wanted to hear.
I can’t condone Dave’s behavior. But the temper tantrum of one man, on one day, is not sufficient justification to offer an on-the-spot verbal resignation (conditional or otherwise). You and Crossfit HQ clearly have many, many issues on which you disagree. The most important of these is probably the Paleo vs. Zone disagreement. It doesn’t matter whether Paleo or Zone is better. It is not workable for Crossfit’s number one nutrition guru and lecturer to have such a profound disagreement with its leadership. A contributor to the Journal, or a message board contributor, could absolutely hold a disparate view. But the nutrition headliner for the entire organization? It just doesn’t make sense. You aren’t just a dissenting voice – you are The Crossfit Nutrition Guy.
You claim that after 10 years Greg Glassman owed you more than this. This is the same man you accuse in your blog post of never taking responsibility for his decisions. It is obvious that there is personal animosity between you, Greg Glassman, and Dave Castro that existed long before this particular incident. You can’t have it both ways. Either Greg is a longtime friend and partner who unfairly slighted you, or he is someone you have never respected because he doesn’t take responsibility for his decisions. Since the latter appears to be true, I don’t understand what ties of friendship or loyalty are binding you two together.
It is clear from your blog post that this resignation should have occurred prior to the events at the BBS, and for reasons much more profound than just personal dislike. To blame it simply on Dave’s tantrum is not professional, and it’s not justified.
One last point, on a lighter note: why is there disagreement on Zone vs. Paleo anyway? Paleo is prescribed in the 100 Words of Fitness!
Latham-
You are entitled to your opinion. As am I as to the disagreement about Paleo “vs.” Zone that is all a conflict of Greg Glassman’s creation borne of an inability to evolve the program. This is very similar to why Rip was run off the island.
I appreciate the input, you seem lie a solid, thoughtful person.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Robb,
Can you elaborate on Castro’s background sans the SEAL gig?
How’d he come into the HQ inner circle?
How’d he get the dir of training gig? From what I’ve read it seems he has no formal training education other than crossfit.
It seems the cf.com wods have steadily declined in quality and variation over the recent years. Do you think there is a correlation between this and Castro being the DoT?
I’m consisently going to crossfit football, opt’s site and bmacks new strength wods on cfe.com. CF.com just doesn’t do it for me anymore. Anyone else in this boat too?
So What!!
Some background, note the date.
http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/CFJ_Cej_BusinessOfCrossFit091016.pdf
Well this pretty much seals the deal, I have admired many crossfits instructors thru the years, Rip and Wolf among them of course, but there has always been something about CF that gnaws at me. The actions of DC just personifies its self center ‘tude in the fittness field that stinks greater than its inner core seems to smell. What I learned from Rip and Robb along with Dan John, Marty Gallagher, and the like along with the elite RFC guys goes beyond anything ego trip certifcation can do for me. I hope CF finds a new voice.
My observations thus far:
Robb Wolf gives Dave Castro verbal permission to fire him (colorful words to that effect); Dave Castro grants Robb his request. I understand you were offended by Dave’s immature eruption at Greg Everett, and that you were defending your friend, but was it necessary to say what you said? If anyone had reason to blast his horn, it was Greg Everett, but he remained cool, and that has earned him much respect. No one condones Dave Castro’s behavior. But he has contributed to this community, just like you have, and many others, myself included. If a man falls, and we do not allow him the opportunity to get back up, we may very well find ourselves falling one day, and suffering the same fate.
You need to change the title of your post to something like; “Why I resigned as a CrossFit nutritional speaker.” That is in effect what you did. I admit, I was let down when I learned what was said, and my respect for Dave Castro dropped. Initially my respect for CrossFit also dropped, but reading Barry Coopers post above changed that.
Dave Castro is not CrossFit, neither is Greg Glassman for that matter. “We are CrossFit,” each and every one of us that has benefited from this training, and yes, we owe a debt of gratitude to Greg Glassman for it.
This does not mean we cower when we see injustice, or have great ideas that are ignored, no, we pull together and work it out. If we are knocked down, we get back up, every time. But the constant beat down that is continuing through your Blog is not helping anyone. My dad gave me some good advice once when he said, “When you put your own family down, you put yourself down, even when its justified.” CrossFit is our fitness family, and like many families, we are not always going to say and do what pleases everyone, and from time to time, we will offend. But one should NEVER bring a family matter into the public eye as you have done. If it is a gross moral issue, and there is physical evidence and an eye witness, or a legal issue with the same support, then take the necessary legal steps to deal with it accordingly.
Whining about having your teeth kicked in just make you look weak. The more I read, the more my respect dwindles. Barry Cooper, though he can be quite long winded (pot calling the kettle black here), made some very good points. I fear the more you try to defend yourself, the more of a hole you will dig for yourself.
IMHO, if you were to delete this entire blog section, get back to promoting good nutrition, contact Greg Glassman and work this out privately, my guess is that the whole CrossFit family would benefit, and you would be in a much better position to promote good nutrition to the masses. You would be respected as a man who was able to rise above it.
Robb Wolf, you have a mission, and that mission is to promote good sound nutrition to the CrossFit community, and beyond. That mission does not include the beat down of Greg Glassman, Dave Castro, or anyone else. You may have to draw on every remaining ounce of strength you have to protect what you believe in and promote it, but do so in a way that builds others up (including those you are at odds with). Good men influence those that admire them, but great men influence even those that despise them.
Sincerely
Greg/M2
Greg/M2-
I appreciate the post and in some regards actually agree. Like I have sad before, when I left C in the past in protest to behavior akin to Dave’s I was slandered. I went out quietly and got my teeth kicked in. Not this time. Everyone would like this to just go away, that’s fine by me as it paints HQ in the correct light.
What No one has seen is that my talks opened with rather gushing historical accounts of what I learned form Glassman, what and outstanding coach he was…I have offered sufficient support. At some point I can’t just stick my heard in the sand. If you are comfortable with that it is certainly your call.
Is it shockingly coincidental to anyone else that that RW is provoked and ousted at roughly the same time that .com has been promoting and practically pounding Barry Sears down our throats?
I have always wondered how CFHQ has gotten away with promoting “zone” all those years in the certs without so much as mentioning his name at the certs, let alone pushing his website out there or encouraging “Zone” book sales. I’ll wager they haven’t been paying royalties either. I don’t care how good of friends Greg G. claims he and Barry are. At the end of the day, when Sears finds out that for the last several years, hundreds of Crossfitters are plunking down thousands of dollars per weekend to be schooled on all things Crossfit, a major portion of which is Barry Sears’ intellectual property…Friendship be damned, Sears and his lawyers are going to want royalties. He’s earned them. He wouldn’t be much of a business man if he didn’t pursue this.
This leads me to wonder if Crossfit in lieu of paying back royalties hasn’t contracted with Sears to push his content more directly. I have had business dealings with Greg G. in the past. Shit, I can’t believe I put “Greg G.” and “business dealings” in the same sentence. Anyway, I know how he works. He might have said to Barry Sears, as he said to me, “I can put millions of eyes on your product – I will make you a millions.”
Sears has lost market share. Hell, I think I read his book back in the mid to late 90’s. He’d be looking for a new audience to stimulate sales by now. This CF thing may be just what he needs to push through a poor economy and a profound lack of new ideas and therefore sagging sales?
Has CFHQ sold out? IF they did, the first thing they’d have to do is get completely rid of all competing thoughts or ideas on nutrition. And now Robb is out…hmmm. Really makes you think, does it not?
Oh, don’t doubt for one moment this kind of skulduggery is beyond CF. ANYONE who has had business dealings with CF in the past will tell you, THIS is exactly how HQ works. It is precisely why NO ONE and I mean NO ONE has a signed contract with CF for services rendered. Can you back me up on this Robb?
Sorry for the cloak and dagger conspiracy theory shit. I’m not sure I believe it either. It was just a thought I had several weeks ago after seeing more and more of Sears on the mainsite. Shocked me when my own prediction came true. It didn’t come about in the way I thought it ought to – of course nothing ever does with CF – but the end result was still the same. It got me to thinking…and I thought I’d share.
Latham:
I first want to disclose that I don’t know you. I also don’t know Greg, though I met him once a number of years ago. I do know Robb, to an extent, as I work out at his gym, (which is why I am here).
As a practicing civil and corporate attorney, I generally find that such an “incident” as described by the various participants and witnesses, generally falls into the position of, “everyone was at fault to a degree”. However, your postings on this issue simply shock me. I can only deduct that you are not a licensed Attorney and have no concept concerning corporate requirements for avoiding hostile work environments and workplace violence. Your statement that, “Dave’s behavior is not relevant here”, is not only wholly unsupported by both case and statutory law, but also could be viewed as an admission that CF Inc., does not believe it has an affirmative duty to avoid workplace violence.
As the 2nd man at HQ, Dave represents the Business Entity of CF Inc. As such, both California Corporate and Civil law impose certain responsibilities upon him when he is acting on behalf of the corporation, (and given that Dave was here in California representing CF Inc., California law would apply). (YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS)
One of these responsibilities is to enforce a Non-Violent and Non-Hostile work environment. You concede that Dave had a ‘tantrum’. You concede that he, “probably heard what he wanted to hear”. You concede that he used demeaning and offensive language, (fat fuck). You concede that he initiated the ‘heated confrontation’ by using the above referenced language. Any one of these items could make the Corporation as a whole, each individual officer, and each individual director PERSONALLY liable for both civil as well as punitive damages, IF this situation is not handled correctly. Taken together, (if you speak on behalf of CF Inc., or if your written admissions were to be found by a court to represent the general knowledge of the officers and directors of the corporation), you have admitted that you KNOW that you have a ‘supervisor’ employee that is creating a hostile and potentially violent work environment.
Please note that Greg has indicated that Dave physically assaulted him by employing a ‘control maneuver’ to his neck. There are apparently at least 2 witnesses that also saw this assault. Again, I don’t know Dave, but if his military background really does include being trained as a SEAL, (and CF Inc. knows this), then this loss of control you admit, combined with the deadliness of his training, SHOULD give EVERYONE concern about how much damage he could do to someone. So obviously, both Greg’s and Robb’s actions and purported statements would HAVE to be reviewed under such a light. Which makes Dave’s actions not only relevant, but highly probative. This fact alone WOULD be used by an attorney to prove HOW grave the threat Greg and Robb felt, (and the increased duty for CF Inc. to do something to make sure that Dave could never do such again.
Any corporate counsel worth their pay, hearing even one bit of what you have admitted, would have instructed you and everyone else at CF Inc. to keep your bloody mouths shut and hire outside counsel to do a complete and thorough investigation. So either you guys don’t have effective legal counsel, or you are not listening to them. At a minimum, California case law, (and based on the Act to Prevent Workplace Violence), Federal law REQUIRES, CF Inc. to have an independent 3rd party investigation of this incident, (typically an independent law firm specializing in such investigations). CF Inc. should also suspend Dave pending the outcome of this investigation. Failure to follow all of these steps could lead to CF Inc, its officers and directors, becoming personally liable for Dave’s actions, (because they did not use reasonable prudence to investigate the incident and protect their workers and business associates from such violence in the work place).
As to your laments about Robb not ‘supporting’ CF programs, diets, etc., one wonders HOW a well run corporation could embark on a diet plan that IS NOT fully supported by the very expert they refer to as their “Nutrician Guru”. If Robb is telling Corp. that there is a better way, or that an unweighed Paleo Plan has some advantages, why is Corporate not listening and promoting such information? Typically, there are only 3 basis to support such Corporate governance. First, is that the Corporation has an invested interest in promoting a particular “product”. Such as maybe the owners, officers, directors, or even the corporation itself, may have an investment in the Zone Diet, such that there is a financial benefit from such cross-promotion. Second, that the decision to support the “product” was made at some point in the past, and the Corp. is reluctant to change their position simply because it costs more and takes longer to “change or adjust” such messages. Third, the corporation has other independent information/evidence that makes them believe their inside expert is not correct.
Your posting expressly states that Robb’s nutritional insight and advice may be right, (“probably is true”). You try to downplay the problem of Corp HQ pushing the Zone even if it is not the best choice, by specifically highlighting the fact that each gym and owner, is free to advise their clients as they see fit. No where do you indicate that you have outside information that contradicts Robb’s recommendations. So there does not appear to be any basis that the Third explanation fits. Rather, you simply focus on CF Inc., wanting to promote the Zone Diet, and Corporate HQ not liking the fact that Robb was recommending a variant. Again, corporate counsel should be screaming at you. IF CF Inc. is primarily dedicated to its athletes, and improving their health, performance and lives, then it MUST always strive to promote the best nutritional and exercise information and instruction available. Rather, your statements seem to clearly indicate that this is simply a CONTROL issue, where Corporate HQ wants to DEMAND that their “Nutritional Guru” tells people what Corporate HQ wants them to hear, (even when you admit Robb’s advice is probably better than the corporate message).
I don’t know what leverage or position you may hold in CF Inc., Latham, but CF has grown because people are seeing results. I ignored Robb’s nutritional advice for 2 years. CF still improved my performance and allowed me to lose some weight, but it was not until I started following his nutritional advice a year ago, that my life really changed. THAT is what people are seeing. THAT is why a number of my friends and business associates have joined CF. When CF Inc., starts to care more about controlling its BRAND, than the success of its MEMBERS, that is when CF Inc., will start its long and slow decent that has captured most of your competition. And sadly, that is what your posts clearly seem to be indicating.
When people stop paying $1,000 for a worthless “level 1 certification” issued by the hucksters at the helm of a cult of ignorant narcissistic wannabes, this madness will end. And once it does, what are you “L1 Certified Trainers” going to do with your “certs?” Think. CF has been around for about 10 years now and it still has no legitimacy in the S&C world, which is exactly as much as it deserves.
P.S. I expect this Castro idiocy will adversely affect sales of Rogue’s new “Castro Bar,” which appears to be the positioned as world’s first tactical barbell and the Navy SEAL-endorsed piece of equipment with which to murder Fran.
Robb, I noticed this from you in the previous comments (page 6):
Robb Wolf:
“One cert someone asked Nicole if one should emphasize or de-emphasize the eccentric portion of the DL for hypertrophy. She had no idea what the guy was talking about. I’ll bet still does not.”
The fact that you would even think that is an important question speaks volumes about why you and Crossfit HQ have split. I am sure a professional bodybuilder could give you an hourlong lecture on which portion of the deadlift best promotes muscle growth (i.e. hypertrophy). The Crossfit answer is: it does not matter. What matters is whether you can pick up the weight. That’s it. We don’t care how big or small your muscles are, or how fat or skinny you are, or what your VO2 max is. We care about whether you can pick up the weight. Your lack of understanding of this indicates that you and Crossfit HQ have philosophies that are too different to be reconciled.
Latham-
Yes, the two approaches are completely unreconcilable. I actually know WHY I am doing things, and can articulate that. This is in stark contrast to HQ philosophy. Just pick it up? that’s as far as wee will take thing eh? Have YOU latham EVER worked with anyone and developed then to a significant degree? Have YOU ever worked with an athlete who is in a specific weight class who cannot afford undue hypertrophy but who needs to be both strong and conditioned? I have. I have a few national and world champions, I also produced a 3rd place affiliate cup team and was 20 sec off the run from winning the whole thing. I respect your input but brother, you need to step bakc and re-evaluate what if anythign you have to teach me in the S&C game. Are you aware that OPT makes extensive use of eccentric/concentric loading by modifying rep speeds with protocols such as 30×0? Do you know what that protocol MEANS? Do you know that most strength coahces OUTSIDE crossfit know what it means and know what it is FOR?
I’m not sure why Latham, but the temerity of you rolling in and telling me I don’t know what I’m doing seriously fucking pisses me off. I get that you are new to CF, that you like the whole concept, but brother YOU do not know what you dont know! I have answered each of your posts but I think I might be done with this. When YOU have run a CF gym for 7 years, had it recognized as one of the best gyms in the US, then we can talk as equals in all this.
Also, someone should tell Dave he needs to do something about that hair. WTF is up with the shrub growing atop that man’s head?
Robb,
I absolutely support you. You are the number one source for nutrition info. Keep doing what you’re doing man, you’re making a huge impact on the world.
Skelly, way to represent the Marine Corps. You’re probably Dave Castro’s lover you stupid douche.
Robb,
As far as limited intel, all I have to go on is your original blog post. If there is additional information that would change my conclusions, I’m open to it.
I have not seen the Facebook comment Greg Glassman made, because, unlike your blog, Facebook is not a public forum. It is a private forum. I cannot see what comments were made on Lisa Lugo’s page because I don’t know Lisa Lugo. If he passed a comment through Lisa, it was intended only for her and whoever her Facebook friends are (I’m guessing not more than a few hundred people at most).
Latham-
Like I said to Barry, I’m not posting that stuff at this point. I made my point, folks know I will not be the instructor of the forthcoming nutrition gigs via CF AND folks have a sense of why I was canned. The fact all of this has been handled in as clandestine a manner ass possible (Facebook pages for a quasi-written explanation?) and the complete lack of open discussion of all this on the message boards is a pretty good indicator they just want it all to go away.
Zach,
You may be thinking of the “Wrestling Physical Conditioning Encyclopedia” by John Jesse. It’s from around the same time period (and even the same region) as when Greg Glassman began his training career, and it’s said to include many CrossFit-like ideas. It’s a pretty rare book – only two copies on Amazon, starting at $220 + S&H.
Robb,
Thanks for keeping this blog comments open. I’m sure your future holds nothing but success for you.
Take care,
Patrick Donnelly
POD-
thanks dude, we will drink some tequila together next time I get out your way.
Can someone cut and paste this Facebook message? Not many of you will friend me…
(Mild attempt at humor)
Robb, I’m totally relieved!! After being informed of all these developments by one of my clients(sort of an awkward moment), I’ve been searching to find CF’s response. Surely they would have a public response! Well, as yesterday’s video’o’the day proves, Dave is really a great guy who we can be proud of. Thank God! And as for replacing you at the nutrition certs: the specialty cert sign up page now promises “one of CrossFit’s nutrition experts…..meal plans… tricks… ” Tricks AND meal plans!!! I’m soo canceling my appointment with Nutrisystem. The affiliate gathering now comes with a free t-shirt and great discounts on various CF merchandise. Although I’ve already attended your version of the CF nutrition seminar, and yes it was probably the best money I’ve spent withing CF(ok, really it’s a tie with Rips seminar) I’m going to hold out hope that the new CF nutrition seminar will come with discount coupons for those Zone Cinnamon Buns. This whole Paleo thing is pretty cool but if I can be an elite athlete AND eat Cinnamon Buns, DAMN!!!
Wow…..again!!
I am surprised this topic is still ongoing.
Permit me to sum it up:
Righteous Robb has left the CF Building
Robb is not defaming CF……
EVERYONE has the choice of following Zone or paleo….
EVERYONE has the ability to make up one’s mind as to what gives results [give each methodology a go and measure results]
CF has introduced an incredible concept to the masses [although they did not ‘invent the wheel’]
Let’s put this matter to bed and get on with lives…..
Have a workout, grab an apple, hug a loved one, dance like no ones watching….break out the best crystal for a nice glass of something….and enjoy the day…
Train Hard, Live Easy
Latham, after reviewing your discourse with Robb, it is clear that you “get it”. I would definitely pick you as a coach over Robb…
SIKE!!!!
@ PaulyG-
TRICKS!!! Didn’t Dave Douche Bag Castro state himself…”Tricks are for kids!” C’mon Crossfit- Please step up and make us proud to fly your flag. This is NOT OK! Love you Robb and Nikki!
Robb, you were and still are the better trainer capable of producing better athletes and better people in general. Go your own way and do your own thing. Do it better than them and enjoy the satisfaction of that and of knowing that hundreds or thousands of people listen to you because of what you have done and will continue to do. And you are right about Paleo being better.
Doug
Steve this is continuing because it needs to. For to long and for to many people there is so much ugliness behind the scenes. This needs to continue and needs to keep blowing up until certain people at HQ listen. I have watched to much be brushed up, attacked, ignored and covered up. The philosophy of CrossFit is great, the business sucks. The koolaid drinkers are trying to fix this and excuse it but frankly this sucks…period.
I want CrossFit to continue and grow and I understand that there will be growing pains but there is so much that it rotten underneath that it needs to be fixed to move on…
Hi fellow protein junkies,
Firstly, Rob Wolf, be a man and suck it up, stop throwing your dummy out of the pram and get on with it. I come to this blog to be educated and not to listen to crap that hormonal women would come out with.
Secondly, Paleo versus Zone, lets get back to basics, zone all the way. Although after conversation with my local personal trainer Shane Fitzpatrick has made we come to the conclusion that we should all adopt the “cowboy supper diet”, sausage beans and chips three times a day. This way we are all eating the same amounts of fat and potein. If we adopt this diet into Olympic weighleighting then it will become a fairer sport as it will allow the best natural athlete to become evident. The odd sherbet dib dab can replace cottage cheese as a post training snack.
Looking forward to hearing any thoughts you may have,
Keep throwing the tin,
Your gym friend,
Martin Power
Looking forward to hearing your views
Affiliates are upset and some have brought up points and been slapped privately. I am trying to find the right way to put this…many of us love CrossFit but can’t stand HQ. What do we do? Give up our living? I know that many folks say if you hate it leave it but when this is your only living and you also love the community what do you do? It’s not an easy decision. Most of us just wish that HQ would listen and get their head out their ass so that we can be a part of a business that is not just great word but also a great business all the way through.
Will-
Not sure what the answer is. Ultimately it’s just nose to the grind-stone and build your gym the best way you can. The question arrises as to WHO is your community and leadership? That I cannot answer.
Robb, thanks for keeping your blog open to comments and discussion. HQ shut down all discussion at .com since the truth would come out and the truth makes them look bad. Crossfit was popularized by the internet and it will be “depopularized” by the internet. They have been exposed. Once a business loses credibility, they lose most of their business. Crossfit has zero credibility at this point. Expect the bottom line to start to reflect that.
Where did Rick go? It seems around page 6, Robb point blank asked Rick what affiliate is his and that was the last we heard of Rick. Where did Rick go? Rick, what affiliate is yours, that has 250 members? But, after page 6 Latham Fell (Let-them-fail?) appears. Hmm, while I am at it, only 1 post from Tony Budding? Where did Tony go?
Robb,
Ok, so you got fired from CF. I’m sorry that happened to you, yet not totally shocked. Your love was kinda thin for CFHQ and you let that show through, I’ve heard that from you first hand.
A shit load of my friends have been laid off this past year, lost their jobs with families to support…..none of them have whined as much as you have. Your not and have not been happy with HQ’s ideas on nutrition for one reason or another for a while. The semantics on this I will not get into.
Robb, pull yourself up by your boot straps and walk on brother. It happened, but you’ve got places to go and things to do. Walk away with your chin up and stop this bitching. People get fired, laid off, let go of, ALL the time….Welcome to to the land of life is hard. Take the hit and grow from it but all this crying is making me sick.
Oh and I believe that your welcomed to comment on your stance in the Affiliates section of the CF form. So far it’s been a very constructive conversation.
You know I dig what you’ve got to say about nutrition and have gained from your cert. This is not about that. I can’t wait for your book and I will continue to read your blog, but all this drama is just not attractive to me. Take the break up like a man and shine on.
Jen
Hey Jen!
I really appreciate that. This is NOT about getting fired nor some loss of income. I could book seminars on my own tomorrow and do fine. My gym kicks ass and that is actually the ONLY income I lived off of while in CF. I NEVER let my lifestyle outstrip the income I had complete control over. This was about making sure my name is clean in the coming months. As I said before several times, I left previously in an attempt to change things and got hammered. Not this time.
I hope you are doing well.
Robb,
I think this is all about fish oil. In the last few months we are seeing more Zone Diet on CF.com. By Zone Diet, I mean the food company that Barry Sears owns. This food company sells, amongst other things fish oil. Barry Sears is appearing a lot in the CF journal lately, what is next? Will CF.com sell Zone Diet fish oil? Or, will they distribute it to their affiliates to sell?
You tell people to buy Kirkland. Obviously, CF.com will not sell much overpriced Zone Diet Fish Oil, if their number one nutrition guy..you…says it is over priced and Kirkland (Costco’s) is just as good.
I am sure they pondered how to let you go. I mean you were the number 4 affiliate, you saw something when the rest of us were still doing back and biceps. You are a CF Coach, the highest honor bestowed on an affiliate. You also are an athlete and you happens to know what the fuck you are talking about. How could they let you go? Well the opportunity arose, and they siezed it. For the rest of you, watch for Zone Diet Fish Oil for sale either by CF.com or your local affiliate in the near future.
I will not even get into the competition Paleo Brands may have with the Zone Diet.
Pat-
There was a MAJOR row over my involvement in Paleo Brands. Glassmans concern was that I was “involved with a food company”. I said “what about Barry Sears food company?”
The subject was changed.
If I had been content to toe the party line I’d be in some kind of position like Dave or Tony. I just have a bad habit of speaking my mind when I see people treated poorly (Dan John? Josh Hillis?…….) and when our label claims do not match results.
There are some funny double standards in all this too. HQ explains away the massive growth in affiliates with analogies like starbucks and some other nonsensical tripe. Of course it’s fine for HQ, not so great for some affiliates in which the market is saturated and the prices for their offerings are heading into the gutter. Now it is likely that we will see massive continued growth, then a die-off of many of these affiliates but there is little loyalty to the OLD affiliates. We are not cash generators. HQ had an opportunity early on to systematize things, have legitimate leveled training certs, CEU’s and a diversified stable business ecology. Instead they ran with the Level 1 which is the pretty much the bread and butter.
The double standard arises when glassman tells his cronies Everett and I started the Performance Menu as competition. We had permission from glassman. What happened is it was actually pretty damn good and we did not only concern ourselves with CF. As a consequence things evolved and I think the quality of the two publications is pretty evident. That;s double standard 1, the second is glassman is convinced I’m going to start some kind of competitive certification program. I have no intentions of doing that but if I did…so what? If they have such a solid product, why would he be concerned about that? Let the market decide! Well, there is the rub. It is not tough to put together curriculum and staff that is better than the level 1 offerings.
Instead of evolving the offerings glassman canonized his own work and the rest of the community has continued to innovate.
Robb all I can say is keep up the good work and I can’t wait to attend one of your seminars if you ever come back to the Carolinas or Atlanta areas.
Robb,
Sorry, but no-can-do with the tequila. I’m still one year shy of the legal limit, and truth be told, drinking doesn’t really appeal to me anyway.
Now, olive oil shots… That’s a different story!
Take care,
Patrick
Barry
You said, “That argument is made by and for dummies.”
That’s why I made it for you, dummy!
Actually, it was appropriate. I’d say your invocation of Godwin’s Law (yes i was aware of it) was inappropriate. I was using the quote to demonstrate the cult of personality that has developed around Glassman, as your example proves, i.e. your confusion between Glassman’s contributions to the CF community and the CF community’s contributions (undivorced in your mind). Of course Glassman created CF, duh. But you can’t take credit on his behalf for the immense growth of CF. That, in my opinion, belongs to the community. Taking credit for things you didn’t do is a symptom of arrogance, which I believe is what this whole spat is about. Ultimately, you invoked godwins law to dodge the question at hand and save face, i get it. Besides, you are intelligent and know that a national socialist party didn’t exist, it was the national socialist german workers’ party (nsdap). splitting hairs, sure, but if you’re going to insult someone’s knowledge of history and intelligence you’d better have your facts straight. I blame the history channel.
Murtle Turtle got it right when they said CF depends upon the goodwill of its clients. They are losing a ton of goodwill right now. I for one agree with mt, I won’t be giving cf any more money.
I also find Will’s post the best and most succinct I’ve read yet.
I was going to post the cultish overtones in Barry’s comments, but why bother. I can’t rationally compete with emotion. Either it’s self-evident or its not.
Dave
I didn’t think of it until you said and you are 100% right. CGHQ by firing Robb opened their self up to a major lawsuit for firing a person who was a target of a workplace violence. Not can only the the corporate assets be targeted in a lawsuit, the personal assets of every corporate manager above Dave and every corporate officer are on the line.
If I was in Robb’s position I would sue. Violence has no place in the work place.
HQ always spins people who stand up to them as “whiners” or weaklings.
Recall affiliates standing up to HQ and asking them to set the standards a little higher so as to not dilute the brand in their community. They too were called whiners. Crossfit Radio devoted a show to it.
Jen, you’re a fool. Robb was fired for the same reason the church incarcerated Galileo. He believes in science. If you want to defend a cult, be sure you’re aware what that will do to your own reputation.
I was actually hoping to see a lot more of comments in objection and direct contrast to your blog (and/or comments made by readers) just to try and get a clearer understanding of what actually happened. For 9 out of 10 times when an account of events are told (with 2 sides) you have one side and then another side with slightly differing accounts and severity of what actually happened, but then you have the truth. However, from the looks of things (and even though most people that come to this site will already be in support of you in some fashion or another), it seems as if your account was spot on (give or take) when it comes to the facts and that Tony B, Dave C, and HQ are in the wrong.
What I am not getting though is if they had enough fatih in you to ask you to do the Nutrition Certs, and had enough faith in your level of understanding/ study of the topic of nutrition; why go against the one you hired for preaching the same thing he always did? Why attack him for his profound studies and education on the topic? Why ask him to accept/ teach something that- in all his years studying this- he doesn’t agree with? Why?
Wouldn’t it be easier to alter your uneducated position on the topic? Wouldn’t that be SMARTER? Wouldn’t that be better for your athletes, trainers and business as a whole?
I hope HQ is not so engulfed in their own hype that they neglect to use the assets that they have so readily available. I mean, is that NOT why they acked the professionals to join them? So they didn’t have to become professionals themselves in a particular field. Or maybe next time, HQ needs to know ahead of time where they stand on the topic of their expertise and how and if it lines up with that of their own. If it doesn’t, don’t go hire a big name just because it’s a big name and you can capitalize off of it, but instead they need to either alter their position of go find someone else. But again any fool can find someone to agree with them, regardless of how wrong they are…
I wish could have sat in on your lectures on Paleo. It wasn’t until BMack’s Running cert and Wellbourn’s CFFB cert that I was really exposed to Paleo; for most of CrossFit’s reading material talks about Zone- save for “nutrition in a 100 words or less.” It wasn’t until then I started seeing gains and PR’s again. (been CrossFitting for 2.5 years and my 1st cert- the running cert- was 6 months ago) I had stop seeing results from training because I was actually trying to zone junk food; allowing sugar, eating loads of grain, etc.
I personally thank you, Robb, for the gains that I saw in myself- even though I was never taught specifically by you both Welbourn and BMack talked about you and got me reading your site. And from the looks of it, the community thanks you too. It is unfortunate that HQ is too ignorant/ prideful to realize that they were in the wrong and were losing a VALUABLE instructor.
Few more things. Anyone who knows me will not be surprised.
First off, it is possible to feel admiration and affection both for Robb and for Coach Glassman. Both are very, very sharp. You all know that about Robb, but if you have never seen Coach Glassman lecture, you don’t fully grasp how smart he really is. He truly has created a “best of class” system, and the criticisms of it amount, in effect, to issues of personal taste, along the lines of how much salt you put in your food, or in my case hot peppers.
The most common criticism is that it doesn’t develop strength well, and that since it depends largely on strength, that that is a major flaw. Well, they came out with CrossFit Strength Bias, you have Rutman’s Max Effort Black Box, you can do cycles of Starting Strength or O-lifting, etc.
You have CrossFit Endurance for a CrossFit Endurance bias. You could theoretically, depending on your needs, program a CrossFit Balance Bias, or a CrossFit Accuracy Bias (that would be a good one for me), or a CrossFit Flexibility Bias. All of this is possible, and would be desirable. You have to mix it up.
At the same time, ALL OF THESE are based on a template of constantly varied (not necessarily randomized, which is a point many miss in criticizing CrossFit), high intensity (this can be neurological intensity), functional (this CAN be context driven) movements.
There is nothing else out there like it. And any student of the history of ideas will tell you that great ideas, once developed, come to seem obvious in retrospect. But they aren’t, and weren’t. Robb himself used to have a comment floating on the Main Page about how he was a State Champion powerlifter, and long term martial artist, and yet had never come across anything so effective. Now, being him, he has continued to tweak it, but the template was developed by Coach Glassman.
Now, I am not making this accusation, since in my own personal experience it is unsupportable, but let us suppose–as has been implied here–Greg Glassman is someone prone to fits of unjustfiable rage, and personal vindictivenes. These are clearly unattractive qualities.
ANY complete analysis would have to include, in addition, his qualities of great warmth, generosity, and personal affection, towards virtually everyone he meets. Anyone who has met him has seen this side, too. They have also seen a very rich, highly ordered, productive/creative mind that spends considerable energy trying to figure out how to help, in particular, our troops and those who put their lives on the line. This is a personal passion for him, and I don’t think anyone can question that. Robb knows this; he has just experienced, apparently, another aspect to his personality.
I have several comments on that. First, ideas and personalities are two different things. Einstein was awful to his first wife and son. Bertrand Russell drove his own son mad with his cruelty. Gandhi’s policies led to the PREDICTABLE deaths of millions, and a war that continues to this day, and which led to the nuclearization both of India and Pakistan.
Secondly, we all say things in the heat of passion we later regret. Whatever is in the emails Robb has, no doubt it shows someone flying off the handle. Now the thing to do, once you calm down, is apologize. If that doesn’t happen, observers can just take that as it is, or view that as a patent character flaw. In most cases, as far as I know–and this is really none of our business, in the end, any more than family squabbles are–Coach has in fact apologized.
Whether this is true or not, the fact remains that EVERY affiliate, without exception, exists because of Coach Glassman, and the advice that we do well not to cast aspersions on the mote in others eyes, when we have beams in our own, holds. He is not CrossFit. He STARTED CrossFit. He has considerable say over what happens, but likely delegates much of it.
What is at issue here is not how Affiliates run their businesses, but what the content of the training is going to be, and who is going to run it. You don’t have to choose CrossFit programs. You can choose Rip’s new Starting Strength program (I will note here that CrossFit Wichita Falls is still going strong). You can do whatever Coach Sommer’s, or Mark Twight, or whoever else is doing. Yes, you do have to do a Level 1 to be an official trainer, but other than a few pedantic details, everyone who has been to one has viewed it in a highly positive light, and viewed it as tremendously beneficial. Level 2’s, which are by every account I’ve seen quite demanding, will continue to demand a very high level of both personal virtuosity and training acumen.
Finally, Dave Castro. Coach Glassman and him have known each other a long time. He was at the first Cert. I went to, in (I think) 2005. Back then, I want to say there were only about 6 Cert’s in the year, all three day. I first noticed him hanging by one hand, upside down, from the Bachar (Baccar? Bacchar?) Ladder.
They have no doubt downed a lot of beer together, traveled together, taught together, planned the CrossFit Games together, and feel bonds of mutual respect and loyalty.
As I understand it, on the same weekend as this dust up, Coach Glassman gave an excellent speech in (I think) Seattle. He is an excellent lecturer, so this is par for the course. No one was offended, and I suspect the attendees were uniformly impressed.
He gets wind of this thing with Dave. Put yourself in his position. How would you react? Coach Glassman agrees with the basic positions Dave was advocating. At the same time, he is quite intelligent, and understands that sort of behavior (and at that point he may or may not have received a full version from all sides) is going to be received in a highly negative way. Firing Dave is an obvious option, but is that any way to treat a friend? Coach values loyalty, and one aspect of loyalty is standing by people even when they F— up; ESPECIALLY when they F— up.
To the extent of my understanding, Robb has never been fired, per se. He quit CrossFit as a whole once, and in this case he basically laid down terms for his continued employment which were not accepted. He did this on the basis of principle. I think in his own self understanding, what he is trying is in the nature of an intervention, to stop self destructive behavior. That is what I hear him saying.
At the same time, I do not think it incongruent both that Coach would accept Robb’s implied resignation, and that he would stand by Dave. We don’t know all the positives Dave has contributed, even if we are being told all the negatives anyone can think of.
To be clear, Robb is not resigning his CrossFit Affililation. Neither is Greg. Both feel a great deal of affection towards a great many people in this Community, which is going to be far easier to keep together than attempt and fail to recreate in some other form in some other (virtual) space. They are simply no longer going to be trying to influence the pedagogy at HQ. They will do what they want, when they want, in their gym “homes”, and will be free to continue to offer non-CrossFit sponsored seminars and even competitions.
These events are certainly not positive. At the same time, I see people swinging wildly one way or the other. This is not necessary. Keep your cool. Remember why you came here. Coach never promised to be your father. He never promised you peace on Earth. He promised you kick-ass fitness, and he delivered. The rest is details.
Several other things (as much as it sucks to read all my stuff, think what it must be like to have a brain which won’t stop):
First, I was one of the people Robb mentions as “kicking him in the teeth” when he quit CrossFit, at least I think. I have apologized for this. I made the best call I could, with the information I had, and to the extent I can determine, I was wrong. As far as I know, he got no “official” condemnation in public, at all. In fact, his leaving was only noticed when someone made a comment on the Message Board. He tried to make it unobtrusive.
Second, there IS a discussion going on on the Affiliate Page on the Message Board. You have to be an Affiliate to log on, which is reasonable. That they would want to confine the discussion to Affiliates makes perfect sense. Opinions are most valuable when rendered by those with an ACTUAL stake in the outcome.
Glassman and Sears look so functional and healthy, how could one not be into HQ CF and the Zone!!!
Robb,
When you use phrases like “Glassman and his cronies” it makes clear two things: that you feel bitterness, and why the feeling could be mutual. I am one of the cronies, and perhaps the worst one. If you feel I have attacked you, you’re right. I will say again that from my perspective I made a mistake. I’m sorry. And if you’re still mad at me, I accept that.
I just watched Spider Man 3 again. It’s not the greatest movie, but it does deal a lot with sin and redemption. The quote at the end is good: “Whatever comes our way, whatever battle we have raging inside us, we always have a choice. My friend Harry taught me that. He chose to be the best of himself. It’s the choices that make us who we are, and we could always choose to do what’s right.”
Now, in your view, you are making the best decision you can based on what you hold dear. In my view, so is Coach Glassman. Where does that leave us? Should he have abandoned Dave Castro?
At root, this is a power struggle. You have one view of what constitutes optimal nutrition and training, and other people–most relevantly Coach Glassman–who are also very intelligent, hold differing views.
Now, the argument that we should evolve is incontrovertible, in principle. The question of what constitutes progress, though, is far from completely unambiguous. You have very firm opinions, which you base both upon a considerable theoretical understanding of all aspects of fitness, and considerable experience training people.
You are frustrated that your opinions are often marginalized. This is understandable, since you have considerable evidence to support your views, in an environment in which Empiricism is supposed to be king. That your inputs are not accepted constitutes, presumably, hypocrisy, in your view.
At the same time, if someone is going to put their name on something, should they not be able to control, absolutely, what the content of that something is? As I have said repeatedly, no one is dictating what Affiliates can do, but it is reasonable that since our Certifications are initiated centrally, that they should have a uniform content.
From my perspective, a Paleo Zone with added fat is generally not going to look that different, for most people, from an unweighed Paleo, in terms of macronutrient compositions. This is really a question of +/- a few percent of performance. At the very end of the spectrum, there really is room, in my view, for multiple viewpoints.
Underlying all this, to come back to Spider Man, is a lack of forgiveness on all sides. People who speak out in anger can apologize. People who are hurt can forgive. It is always better to build than to tear down, and to tranform what is into something better can often only be done with time and patience.
You used to be very enthusiastic about CrossFit. Please take some time, understand that as far as I can tell there is no “campaign” to demonize you, or marginalize you. I have spoken out in the past, and will reiterate that I have no intention of repeating that mistake. If there is some other current in some other forum, I don’t know about it.
You’re not under attack, as far as I can tell, except for some minor stupidities on this thread, which I think you should be able to ignore.
Please take some time, calm down, understand both that the basis for your decision was sound, and that that of HQ–which does have the right to dictate content–was as well.
You have a vision. Visions are spread slowly, with difficulty, and one mind at a time. No one is preventing you from spreading it. It is not shared where it would make the most difference, in the short term. Yet, you are so certain that you are right that you are unwilling to make any compromises. This is fine. You may well BE right, and time will validate you.
You are writing a book that will be widely read, no doubt. You are positioned to support the sales of that book through paid speaking engagements. You have a gym which pays your bills. These are all positives.
The only way to always get your own way is to make your own way. That’s why I’m self employed. That’s why running a gym appeals to so many people.
You likely haven’t framed it this way to yourself, with all this talk about principles (which I support fully) but an important element of this is simply that your feelings are hurt, and you are frustrated and in mourning about the (short term) death of a dream.
But it’s still alive. The lot of us are still out here, listening. That good things are in your future would be the best guess of any betting man.
May I ask what happened to Josh Hillis?
Barry Cooper = loooooooooooooong winded sycophant.
“First, ideas and personalities are two different things”
-Institutions take on the personalities of their leaders. As a student of the history of ideas, you know this already. CFHQ has made arrogance and skullduggery institutional imperatives. And now tack on malicious character assassinations, intimidation, and violent assault.
“Secondly, we all say things in the heat of passion we later regret… Coach has in fact apologized.”
-He has apologized for what, the incident most recent? And where is Dave’s apology?
“Firing Dave is an obvious option, but is that any way to treat a friend?”
-I thought this was a multi-national corporation? If that is so, then yes.
And just for laughs:
As much as it sucks to read all my stuff, think what it must be like to have a brain which won’t stop(!)
With that in mind, I’d like to juxtapose these two comments you have made:
Calling yourself a student of the history of ideas
And quoting Spiderman 3.
Barry,
Do us all a favor and shut up.
Thanks,
Chris
Barry Cooper, would you STFU!!. Christsakes, if you spent as much time working out as you do sucking Glassman on message boards, maybe you wouldn’t be such a fatass. For a guy that spends as much energy as you do pontificating about cossfit, you are quite a portly fellow. Try a little less internet, and a little more excercise.
Barry:
You seem to be missing the point. CF Inc. is a business. The CF community are the people growing and supporting CF Inc. and all of the affiliates.
You seem to be wholly focusing on Mr. Glassman and the “debt” we all owe him as the founder of the CF modalities. I have no problem with such an opinion. However, often times, very creative and smart people do NOT make good business people. If Mr. Glassman has his own problems with his temper, control issues, etc., (which is very common), then he needs to surround himself with people who are going to help moderate these bad tendencies. It certainly seems like Dave has similar problems, if not worse. This is a recipe for disaster for a business.
So the issue of a ‘debt’ being owed to Glassman, or his “loyalty” to Dave, are wholly misplaced in this corporate setting. The primary duty of the officers and director’s of a corporation are to promote the best interests of the corporation. This is called a fiduciary duty, and means that the officers and directors must promote the best interests of the business, even when that means they have to do something against their own individual best interests. In this situation, this means that under both California and Federal law, the Corporation is subject to both civil and punitive damages if they do not take the proper steps to investigate this situation. Those proper steps would normally include suspending Dave until the investigation is complete. If that investigation indicates that Dave instigated a violent event or hostile work environment by use of physical force or use of inappropriate language, then he needs to be fired.
Mr. Glassman’s “loyalty” to Dave, and refusal to take the appropriate legal steps to protect CF Inc., puts the corporation, and thereby potentially the entire community, in danger. Whatever anyone thinks of Glassman, Dave, Robb or Greg, the Corporation owes a duty to everyone involved and all of its employees to do a proper investigation. That is not an opinion, it is the law, and to date, it does not appear that CF Inc. is doing such. That in of itself indicates that the corporate structure of CF Inc. is not acting appropriate under this situation.
This whole scenario is eerily similar to Wizard’s of the Coast and their Founder Peter Atkinson. I first met Peter when he was working out of his garage in Seattle. He was a great creative force. Ten years later, he was approaching ‘billionare’ status, and had thousands of employees all over the world. Within another 10 years, he had lost most of it, all due to him not being able to convert over to a Business Manager. He focused on friends, loyalty, rather than running a business. Many employee lawsuits later, he had to sell what was left of the company, and thousands of people lost their jobs. This is what I DON’T want to see with CF Inc., which is why I am bringing up the legal and corporate issues, that should be at the heart of this discussion.
Robb,
I am not a crossfitter, but have followed some of the literature, the community and philosophy closely. I’d like to hear some more about HQ’s treatment of Rip and others if possible. Thanks for speaking what to me sounds like the truth
Bob-
Rip’s story is not mine to tell. Although all of this will make a good book or movie at some point.
Robb,
I shouldn’t have specified him as there are surely others, I was just somewhat aware of a disrespectful, control freak tone that HQ conveyed to the various people that were experts in their field
Barry: you raised a few points that I want you to consider in a new light.
>Now, in your view, you are making the best decision you can based on >what you hold dear. In my view, so is Coach Glassman. Where does that >leave us? Should he have abandoned Dave Castro?
Robb, as an independent contractor, was employed to give his expert opinion and training. His duty of loyalty, is not to Mr. Glassman, but to the corporation, to give the best information and training he can to both the Corp and those people who attend his seminars. Mr. Glassman, as the President of CF Inc., has a fiduciary duty to hold Dave accountable for his actions when acting on behalf of CF Inc. This MUST legally over-ride any friendship or personal loyalty, (according to both state and federal law).
>At root, this is a power struggle. You have one view of what constitutes >optimal nutrition and training, and other people–most relevantly Coach >Glassman–who are also very intelligent, hold differing views.
If I am incorrect on this point, I am sure someone will correct me, but it is my understanding that Coach Glassman has never held himself out as a nutritional expert. Further, this is not a Glassman v. Robb issue, because Mr. Glassman gave up his personal control, when he chose to create a corporation as the business entity to carry forward the CF movement. The Corporation’s duty is to make money and promote the best training and nutritional information available. As I previously posted, IF the Corp has invested in the Zone Diet, then this needs to be disclosed to all affiliates and stockholders, as the “official diet”, based on such fiscal entanglement. Otherwise, it was Robb’s continuing duty to advise his best information.
Their absolutely should be no power struggle. If Robb is the Nutritional Guru for CF Inc., then that is what CF Inc. should be promoting. If there is someone superior to Robb in knowledge and training concerning nutrition within CF, then that person would be the Guru, and then it would be an issue between those two individuals. Corporate itself, should only promote the best plan, that comes out of the nutritionists they depend on, (currently Robb). I can tell you from personal experience that Robb promotes the Zone diet all the time, he simply realizes that it is not the ONLY or in many situations, the BEST option for individuals. That is why he is a Guru, he knows enough to not just give a boiler plate answer, but to be able to customize the Best plan for the individuals he is working with.
>You have very firm opinions, which you base both upon a considerable >theoretical understanding of all aspects of fitness, and considerable >experience training people. You are frustrated that your opinions are >often marginalized. This is understandable, since you have considerable >evidence to support your views, in an environment in which Empiricism is >supposed to be king. That your inputs are not accepted constitutes, >presumably, hypocrisy, in your view.
Who cares about hypocrisy, lets talk best interests of the corporation and CF Community. IF CF Inc., is dedicated to promoting the best training and nutritional practices available, then they need to have a responsive and flexible training/certification program that incorporates not just the general “rules”, but the exceptions, and when adjustments, exceptions, and variants should be applied. A heavy handed, insular, and dictatorial scheme, (which appears to be the current choice of CF Inc.), does not promote the “best” and newest information, but tends to stifle it instead. This again, is not in CF Inc.’s best interests.
>At the same time, if someone is going to put their name on something, >should they not be able to control, absolutely, what the content of that >something is?
The general rule, is that it depends. If Glassman is giving the training. If he is basing it on his expertise, then it would be very appropriate for him to have such control. However, that is not the case here. Robb was contracted by CF Inc., to use his training and experience to train associates. As an independent contractor, (under state and federal law), they could not dictate how he went about those efforts, (without making him an employee). So the answer to your question, in this particular setting would be NO. Glassman nor CF Inc., had a right to exercise such control over the content of Robb’s seminars, based on the contractual relationship they had with him.
Given your question, now reverse your reasoning. Robb was the one putting his name on the certs as the trainer. Robb was the one basing the content on his expertise, training and experience. CF Inc. contracted with him to do this, because they recognized him as an expert in the field. So if anyone should have the right to control the content of the training, it would be Robb.
Dave-
I really appreciate the friendship and support. The beatings in the gym will be at the same level of severity however!
Barry,
That you’re trying to be a reconciler is appreciated but I don’t think you’re addressing what, to me, is the main point. Here it is:
It has been made difficult to a have a productive – i.e. genuinely critical – discussion of fitness and CrossFit under the umbrella of CrossFit. This is due to the culture of the organisation. Dissent is quashed, marginalised, and dismissed, and obedience is encouraged and rewarded.
Dave Castro’s histrionic behaviour at the Black Box Summit is just the tip of a very large iceberg. It characterises the extreme sensitivity of CrossFit HQ to any contrarian discussion. This is the real issue – Robb himself said so to Dave: “HQ cannot hear an ounce of criticism, you are above reproach and it is ruining the organization”, remember?
You characterise this particular mess as a power struggle. I do not. To me, this is a case of several highly knowledgeable and good-natured individuals trying to offer improvements to CrossFit. Not set up a rival organisation, but improve what we already have. They are not demanding to get their way either – they are just trying to get their hand on the table. Why does CrossFit do its utmost to prevent this?
The culture – that CrossFit encourages wholeheartedly – is stifling at best, creepy at worst. How many videos have to be a CrossFit slobberfest? The odd one is fine, but dozens become propaganda. There is this veiled expectancy that we have to proclaim the awesomeness of CrossFit on a sufficiently regular basis, lest you not be “CrossFit enough”.
And CrossFit uses its media outlets to promote – somewhat aggressively – its own practices whilst ignoring alternate ones. Given the controlling of content, the censorship and the presence of the kool-aid attack dogs, if you secretly have criticisms you aren’t going to raise them as you know perfectly well what will happen. And it won’t affect change, so it just isn’t worth the effort. As I said in my previous post, there are benefits to being involved with CrossFit that most don’t want to revoke. I’m not a fan of walking on eggshells so I just stick to my gym. Is this what they call the cream rising to the top?
I wouldn’t compare you to the cultists Barry, but you wrote a lot about how much we owe Greg Glassman, and this is fairly common cultist tactic to meet criticism – i.e. ignore the argument and claim the other person needs to spend some time giving credit to the Glassmans. I think Robb and Greg Everett have bent over backwards to give them credit so how much more is needed? And why is it even relevant to this discussion?
I’m speaking generally here, but I do want to know how much cock we have to suck before we’re allowed to criticise. The thing is, I don’t want to suck cock (no offence to the homosexuals – I have no problem with you lot), so can it be assumed that I’m grateful enough? Maybe I should write an essay on all the good things that I think CrossFit has done and keep it in my back pocket. When I offer a public criticism one of the cultists can ask “to see your papers”. I think that’s a fair compromise!
But I am grateful. When I first discovered CrossFit I was delighted. “This is exactly what I’ve been looking for”, I thought, but I also noticed what I considered a cultish flavour. This was before I’d heard anyone use the “cult” word to describe CrossFit. Is this just a grotesque coincidence or are stereotypes stereotypes because they are based on correct observations?
Now I am but a simple chap so you can forgive me for being confused. Greg Glassman grandly proclaims that rigorous debate is encouraged and has repeatedly stated that if he were shown a better way to do things he would adopt it immediately. I am left with the impression that this is not the case at all. Let’s consider the Journal, which CrossFit describes in this way:
“One of the most compelling features of the Journal is the opportunity to discuss, debate, support, or even reject the ideas put forth in each article. In fact, the article is the starting point, not the conclusion. No article, no author, no idea is so authoritative as to be above intelligent questioning.”
[…]
“It is a chronicle of the empirically driven, clinically tested, and community-developed CrossFit program. Our mission is to provide a venue for contributing coaches, trainers, athletes, and researchers to ponder, study, debate, and define fitness, and thus collectively advance the art and science of optimizing human performance.”
Strong words, but I will suggest they are nothing more than that. If I’m wrong, why were Robb Wolf’s nutrition articles rejected for being “too Paleo” (I believe this is the case – Robb can correct me)? This is particularly strange considering that Paleo is a far more popular approach amongst CrossFitters than anything else. Whatever happened to “community-driven”? If we, “the community” are saying that Paleo seems to work better, shouldn’t CrossFit consider it worthy of investigation? At least let an advocate make the case.
I can’t help but be left with the impression that CrossFit considers the Zone “above intelligent questioning”. I can’t think of another explanation for this attitude. (Why does the questioning have to be intelligent anyway? Can’t I just call it “gay” and expect people not to be delicate about that? What ever happened to “taking the piss” … Dave?) The one exception is Rip’s old articles (and it’s no coincidence that they are amongst the most useful) but even they only emphasise the importance of strength. Nowhere are the numerous criticisms he’s offered on his Q & A.
This is what I don’t understand about you Barry (or Greg Glassman – I’ll get to him). You say that the Left never likes to put its opinions up for inspection for fear that their fraudulent nature be exposed. They use emotion and state coercion to advance their agenda. You say that we should debate things, expect to be criticised, thrash things out, don’t be sensitive about it etc.
I can’t tell you how much I agree with all this, so I’m left wondering: why haven’t you noticed the same of CrossFit? When Lynne Pitts locks another thread on the message board that has just started to get interesting, what do you think of that? When the kool-aid drinkers get defensive about criticism and don’t deal with the argument itself, what do you think? When CrossFit does not even recognise the new theories advanced by its experts and the community beyond a simple “we do the Zone because we do the Zone” response, what do you think?
Perhaps you interpret what you have seen differently, or perhaps you think that I have not seen what I have seen. If the latter is true, I’m wondering how people have arrived at similar conclusions independently. Are we all mad? I’m not saying you have to share this precise perspective but I think what we are saying has at least some substance.
For example, I can see we differ in our opinions of Greg Glassman. Personally, I think he’s a tit. This was my first impression of him too (I didn’t know who he was at the time). I have always felt as though his “generosity”, “modesty” and his “thick skin” were contrived. Maybe I’m wrong and you’re right but can we at least agree that his actions don’t fully match his words? (I can certainly agree that he’s got a lot right.)
I recall “Coach” referring to those who dislike political debate as “timid”. Why doesn’t he say the same of those that drink the kool-aid? Why isn’t he desperate to get Rutherford, Rippetoe, Everett, Wolf et al. on the phone to discuss the criticisms they’ve offered and publish the conversations? Why doesn’t he encourage others to do the same? More tellingly, why has he hired Lynne Pitts to police … I mean, “moderate” the message board? And why doesn’t he encourage Tony Budding to post contrarian material in the Journal? Greg is responsible for this. He cannot hide behind words all the time.
An aside: There is a tendency to accuse those who “hate Coach” of being bitter at CrossFit’s success or for “demystifying fitness”. Perhaps this is true in some cases but let’s just contrast Glassman and Rippetoe (the latter of whom I’m even more indebted to). Mark encourages people to ask him questions (he even has a board with thousands of questions asked), he encourages and respects people that challenge his opinions, he is not protective of his opinions, he can debate in a non-erratic, non-name-calling, non-deliberately missing the point, non-appealing to non-existent data fashion, he discourages and does not reward sycophancy, he can take a joke, and he is incredibly generous without grandstanding about it. Now why do people like him I wonder?
Barry, you say that we are all free to do are our own thing. This is true so why do I complain? The answer is simply that I want to know the truth about subjects that I’m interested in – in this case, strength and conditioning. That some Californian ex-Navy Seal is a twat doesn’t matter to me, but when that Californian ex-Navy Seal twat does something that prevents information being discussed that I might find useful, then I object. Likewise, if Glassman practiced what he preached it wouldn’t bother me in the least that he has “character flaws”. When those character flaws create problems that result in a lack of meaningful discussion about things I care about, then it becomes important.
Of course, CrossFit aren’t obliged to do provide me with anything. They owe me jack. I’m just disappointed that’s all. A lament for what was supposed to be, I guess.
As for throwing out the baby, I will keep using CrossFit as a resource and will continue to direct people (who ask for advice) towards the main page (babies are safe). But as for being a part of “the community”, I’ll have to decline. Everyone reaches a tipping point and I’ve reached mine. But I wish CrossFit the best, I really do.
Lastly Barry, I’d apologise for my absurdly long post, but considering who I’m addressing … well, you know? 🙂
Seb-
Not only my “paleo writings” but also the “Feeding The Machine” series I did for the 2nd CF games and the Zone and Athletic Performance piece. Now, i may be whiney about all that, but when I look at the general content of the journal I think my writing is up to snuff. This has just been a long standing issue (like since 2005) that has been irritating.
I’m glad you brought up the gratitude piece. Somewhere there is a quote from Glassman in which he is asked what can people do to repay him for making CF? his response was “Go be successful”. THAT is genius, sound and rational. Deflecting criticism of the founders and invoking the gratitude clause however is, like you said, cultism, and very destabilizing for a company.
I feel like I help a lot of people, I feel like my work would go on to help people if I died today. I feel really good about all of that. I make a good living doing what I love…there is a symbiosis here and I am highly appreciative of it. The day I am above the folks im trying to serve however I hope people tell me to go pound sand.
Well, I think we can state with absolute confidence that mediocrity can in fact be quite concise. Richard: do I know you? If so, introduce yourself. If not, then why do you feel qualified to comment? Oh, right, it’s the internet, and you are anonymous. You all have big balls.
Arrogance and skullduggery? What evidence can you present? Surely you can grasp that decontextualized exaggeration is something we all first encountered in grade school? Some–not all–of us grow out of it.
Look, here is the reality: HQ has the right to determine the content of their training. What part of that are you unable to grasp? Robb is not in agreement with the direction they have determined. This does not make him right or wrong, but clearly if you are going to teach a CrossFit course, it is reasonable to expect that the content be what you want it to be.
In my own view, Robb will be happier teaching HIS class EXACTLY the way HE wants to. No interference. No deference to anyone else. His show, soup to nuts. This will be, I think, in the long run, a gift.
Dave,
I am, thankfully, not an attorney. I don’t know any attorneys who like their jobs, the bulk of the time, although they like cashing the checks.
But what you need to understand–and Robb or someone else can correct me–is that this was not an official CrossFit event. If it had been, HQ would have determined the content. Dave and others were there in their own capacities. Legally, this exempts the corporation from responsibility, in my understanding.
Moreover, this was not a workplace event. This was a seminar put on by a group of individuals, and attended by people who were unconnected corporately. It was the legal equivalent of a seminar on how to get rich in Real Estate. To the extent there is legal culpability, it would fall on those whose names were on the room reservation, and who took the fees that were paid. This would include, presumably, Greg Everett himself.
It doesn’t surprise me that the first impulse of an attorney would be to think legal sanctions and litigation. If your only tool is a hammer, all problems start to look like nails.
As far as the legal interests of the Corporation, you do understand, don’t you, that affiliation is not ownership in CrossFit, Inc (or whatever it is) itself? The people who own CrossFit the brand are small in number, and may actually be limited to the Glassman’s themselves. Their “fiduciary duty”, such that it is, is to themselves, legally. Your argument, therefore, is empty.
Moreover, it should be stated that Robb’s replacement, for at least the next Nutrition Seminar, will be Barry Sears, the author of the Zone. Now, I am not one to be star struck, and am not capable of commenting on whether this constitutes an improvement or not, but I do think that the attendees will in fact be getting a Nutrition Expert, as promised.
Coach Glassman is a smart man. No one who knows him will argue otherwise. The accusations revolve around his character. To the extent I can tell, there are NO accusations in the public domain that he has ever defrauded anyone. Primarily, the accusations are that he flew off the handle, and said some things in some emails that were quite nasty. This is the part I am speaking to when I say that if this is true, that does not affect the brand of CrossFit at all. Most people will never meet Coach Glassman.
And as far as that goes, as I have already stated, Bill Gates has ALWAYS been notorious for his tirades. His business, none the less, has done well, as I think we can agree. This aspect of his personality is, for most people, completely irrelevant.
More generally, I can see why I annoy some of you: I argue my case rationally, and you have no response. It must be frustrating. You COULD use this as a learning experience. You COULD try to see things from my point of view. Or, of course, you can insult me. If you’ve been reading me long, surely none of you are stupid enough to think that will make an iota of difference, except in the direction of increasing my mental focus, and tenacity in the defense of my viewpoints, which you have otherwise left untouched?
Oh, and by the way, Spider Man contains better, more useful philosophy than that contained in most post-graduate courses. I’ve experienced both. In general, humanity as a whole would benefit if virtually every liberal arts school–as they currently exist–were closed tomorrow. It takes a lot of education to get as stupid as most of our current college graduates.
bob sminter,
one of rip’s guys discusses the email Castro sent to Rip here:
http://www.irongarmx.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5075&start=11350
It’s at the bottom of the page.
“if someone is going to put their name on something, should they not be able to control, absolutely, what the content of that something is? ”
I am quoting Barry here but this seems to be a pretty common theme for those on the HQ side of things. The problem with that idea is that when one hires an expert in a field this would not be a reasonable expectation.
If anyone spends anytime in the world of S&C you will realize that many of the top minds do not agree on a lot of things. It is inevitable you will have different opinions (ex:High bar vs low bar). And noone worthy of being called an expert would or should ignore their knowledge and beliefs to appease HQ. Until we accept that fact we will continue to lose great people.
If you are looking for someone to toe the company line, educate your own people to do it. Have them teach exactly what you want and nothing more and watch quality of the specialty certs decline in short order.
Latham, Haha, hypertrophy in training only matters for bodybuilders? How new are you to training and what is your background in athletic coaching?
Barry Cooper – it’s impossible to read more than one paragraph of what you write. Jesus man.
Dave,
You are apparently a corporate attorney, and repeating things here you say during the day. Here is a simple question: if the entirety of CrossFit, Inc’s shareholders consist of Greg and Lauren Glassman, to whom else do they own this corporate responsibility of which you keep speaking? You are speaking of legal responsibility, correct? Is the answer not blindingly obvious?
Every Affiliate carries their own profit/loss statement, and simply has to include a fee–$1,000, I think–for the privilege of using the CrossFit name. At issue here is the value of that name. Like any other product, it’s perceived worth can go up or down. However, this is a business issue and not a legal one, and I think you know that. Moreover, there are no accusations here that any of the Cert’s have been less than professional.
Clearly, asking Robb to toe a line with which he is not in fully agreement is unreasonable. Given this, HQ had two options: letting him teach exactly what he wanted to teach, or finding someone else who would teach exactly what they wanted. They chose the latter path. I think we can all agree that you can’t get a better authority on the Zone than the author himself.
For this reason, though, I really believe this will be a net positive for Robb. He had been placed in a position where demands were being made (I think this was his perception) on his integrity, and he refused to compromise. That he should be let go is the natural consequence of this. Now, he can teach what he wants, where he wants, how he wants, with no need to ask the approval of anyone.
As far as disagreements, there are many discussions on the Message Board. There are many threads on the Paleo Diet. And on that particular issue, I think one point needs to be made: Zone is a pain in the ass. Paleo is much more simple. Both are intended to reduce systemic inflammation and increase insulin sensitivity. You can do a Paleo Zone, and many people do. You can, through chance or habit, get very close to Zone ratios on an unweighed Paleo Diet. Coach Glassman has always said that the first CrossFit prescription–meat, vegetables, nuts, seeds, some fruit, etc.–was intended to reduce what he called “metabolic derangment”. But for performance optimization he likes the Zone. This is his call. Robb disagrees, and will be saying why, presumably, in his book and following lectures.
Which brings me to the difference between debate and aggression. I will freely admit I use both, but I always try to focus on the former, and use the latter to keep myself from getting so pissed I can’t continue when lightweights decide to insult me to get a result–my silence–they can’t get with anything approaching credible, much less good commentary.
I see all these debates on the Board that go something like: Charles Poliquin doesn’t like CrossFit, and here’s why. Someone like me, will go through the examples and show either misunderstandings or differences in desired outcomes. The original poster will then continue hammering points that have been addressed, then start to insult anyone who disagrees with them. As stated, I do this too, but within the context of substantive content.
This happens over and over and over. There is a point where you realize that the actual intent is NOT to add anything to our system, but to take away from it, and where possible to denigrate it while pretending to be “debating”. People come there with agendas, and that becomes obvious quickly.
To take one common example, we get accused of an insufficient strength bias. Well, I came into CrossFit quite strong, so for me there was actually an insufficient running bias. And in general I think the people making this accusation are big guys who simply hate all the freaking pullups. I hate them. I really hate them. But they are good for me.
So it is quite reasonable to ask questions about CrossFit Strength Bias, about which its authors opened a thread to answer any questions. It is quite reasonable to ask questions about Rutman’s Max Effort Black Box template, and many people do. He sells some sort of template, for those who are interested, as well.
But it is not reasonable to get on the board and DEMAND that things be different, and claim that to do otherwise is awful. These are the threads that get shut down. One I saw about “CrossFit Slop”, another hot topic, got shut down when it was quite obvious that the OP simply wanted to say we were doing it wrong. It’s one thing to make your case publicly, and agree to disagree with the official position. It’s another to keep insisting on it, over and over and over.
Whatever flaws Coach Glassman may have, he is not stupid, and he is not ignorant of diet, kinesiology, biomechanics, and all the other parameters of personal training. He has his opinions. It’s fine to disagree, but he holds the positions he holds because he believes in them. You don’t get to tell him to change his views, or else he’s “unresponsive”.
Think about how many thousands of people are after him every day. When you have this much money flowing around, think how many people want to add their two cents, and get their hands in the cookie jar.
Bottom line: Robb and him disagree, and Coach is the one calling the shots, so he gets his way, and Robb doesn’t.
I would encourage all of you to back off of thinking of CrossFit as something other than a place where you can make local and virtual friends, who share your passion for hard-core exercise; and as a sound business opportunity, for many people in many markets.
Barry-
One would think that Sears would be the ultimate authority on the Zone but when he was asked if my tweaks on the Zone (deleting carbs, adding fat) would work he gave an emphatic “NO”. Apparently he did not check with Pat Sherwood or the other several thousand people who have modified the Zone along my guidelines. Here is a link to Pat’s experience it is comment #29. If you take the time to read that Pat not only improved all his performance metrics, he ADDED 10 LBS F MUSCLE AND LOST FAT. With a modification on the Zone that Barry Sears says “DOES NOT WORK”. When Dave Csstro and I were “talking” after my nutrition talk I said Barry Sears had no idea how to optimize the Zone for Crossfit. Dave said I was the “better man for the job” and that Sears did not really understand CF. So, no, Barry Sears is NOT the better person for the job, he is the person they can control. We have thousands of data points showing a superior approach to the Zone and it is ignored. Barry, if that does not register as “unresponsive” I’d be impressed to know what does.
Barry, I am not trying to be a dick here but if you are REALLY trying to improve the HQ lot I’d quit posting here and try to get them to unlock their threads and have the tough discussions they need to have to keep this train on the road.
I’d like to hear Barry respond to Seb’s points.
Pondering this a bit more deeply, I have to say I find this all a bit funny, in an ironic way. Is it not a species of vanity to suppose there really could be a place where all assholes were eliminated? Where everything is sunshine and flowers? Clearly enough, we sometimes are lucky enough to get holidays from history, and from the innumerable unpleasant things that human beings do to one another.
At the same time, only a blind fool could expect such a thing to last. What we need to remember here, is that there are a LOT of intelligent, decent, articulate, passionate people in this Community, which admittedly is in many cases a virtual one. Yet, I have met every person about whom we have been speaking, some of them several times.
Never ask more of life than is there, or than you are willing to create. Those are words to live by.
Robb,
There is a discussion in the Affiliate section. Since you’re an Affiliate, you should be able to comment. I have no pull with HQ.
I am honestly not knowledgable enough to render an opinion on the diet controversy. Manifestly, you have what you believe to be compelling reasons for believing what you believe, and I respect that.
I would do things differently, if I were in charge. I can’t tell you how many areas there are about which I’ve said that. But I’m not.
Seb,
re: Rippetoe and Glassman, great contrasts. Not to mention that Rippetoe can squat over 300 still. As the “original CrossFitter”, Glassman can do…um…what exactly?
Justin
Scott,
I thought I did respond to Seb’s points. What did I miss? Point it out to me, and I will rectify my error.
I do want to repeat, as well, that when Robb is saying he wants to improve things, he is offering his opinion. His evidence that HQ is authoritarian (or whatever other word you want to use) is that they are not adopting his views.
Now, I see no reason not to be agnostic on the merit of his views. Broadly speaking, there is NO disagreement on the desirability of limited carb intake and getting most of those from fruits and vegetables. What is in question are some very fine differences as far as exact ratios, and what foods should or should not be included as officially OK.
Coach Glassman, who has also trained–directly or indirectly–thousands of people, holds a different opinion. He is not stupid, or operating in an informational vacuum. Given that Robb will represent CrossFit as far as any seminars he does, why is he the best resource for someone who disagrees with him?
That specific aspect of this has NOTHING to do with any other aspect of this issue. Very simply, if it’s your business, you’re not stupid, and you have an opinion, why wouldn’t you send people out who represent your opinion?
Conversely, why would it be desirable to teach a course content with which you are not comfortable?
How have everyone’s needs not been met here, even if the thing was not handled well at all?
Barry, if you’re trying to be funny and doing a parody of a long winded moron, then keep going. If you’re not trying to be funny, then stfu and stop embarrassing yourself.
“Never ask more of life than is there, or than you are willing to create. Those are words to live by.”
-Which Spiderman is that from?
“Is it not a species of vanity to suppose there really could be a place where all assholes were eliminated?”
-This is the oldest PR trick in the book. It says, in effect, “yes we are not perfect, but who is?” There is a distinct lack of accountability when this approach is used.
“Arrogance and skullduggery? What evidence can you present? Surely you can grasp that decontextualized exaggeration is something we all first encountered in grade school? Some–not all–of us grow out of it.”
-Dan John, Mark Twight, Greg Everett, Robb Wolf, Mark Rippetoe, etc. Not to mention you ask me to give proof of arrogance in one sentence and follow it immediately in the next one with arrogance, insulting me and talking down to me, without the slightest hint of irony. Incredible.
“HQ has the right to determine the content of their training”
-No one has claimed otherwise. What they object to is the way HQ conducts themselves and treats others (including SMEs and clients), not to mention espousing an “open source” approach. The former is disgusting, the latter is clearly untrue. In fact, that’s what caused me to question CF in the first place, if you remember my posts on crossfit.com a few weeks ago. I feel this quote of yours is a fine example of the siege mentality that exists with CF, which unsuprisingly is common in cults. Here is another one from you, “Think about how many thousands of people are after him every day.” There is a righteous sense of embattlement, in my opinion.
“Oh, and by the way, Spider Man contains better, more useful philosophy than that contained in most post-graduate courses. I’ve experienced both… It takes a lot of education to get as stupid as most of our current college graduates.”
-Correct me if I’m wrong, but did you not, then, just called yourself stupid?
btw lay off the charlie munger quotes. he is a billionare. and a lawyer.
“You are apparently a corporate attorney, and repeating things here you say during the day. Here is a simple question: if the entirety of CrossFit, Inc’s shareholders consist of Greg and Lauren Glassman, to whom else do they own this corporate responsibility of which you keep speaking? You are speaking of legal responsibility, correct? Is the answer not blindingly obvious? ”
Not yet an attorney, and not in CA, but if this was the claim they made, I’d think it would be incredibly easy to pierce the corporate veil, meaning the Glassmans would be personally liable for all things CF. The attorney for the next Mims would be able to go after their assets personally.
“Here is a simple question: if the entirety of CrossFit, Inc’s shareholders consist of Greg and Lauren Glassman, to whom else do they own this corporate responsibility of which you keep speaking? You are speaking of legal responsibility, correct? Is the answer not blindingly obvious?”
They still owe a fiduciary duty to the corporation. Being the sole shareholder doesn’t erase a fiduciary duty. A common example is a corporation setting up a wholly owned subsidiary for self-dealing. Google Enron. Piercing the corporate veil is one remedy. There are others. When you ignore the fiduciary duty, by definition you’re treating the corporation as if it doesn’t exist. If you act as if the corporation doesn’t exist, a judge just might agree.
Ok, Barry, if you REALLY want to go there:
>I am, thankfully, not an attorney. I don’t know any attorneys who like their >jobs, the bulk of the time, although they like cashing the checks.
So is this supposed to intone that ALL attorneys hate their jobs? Or what. You kind of lost me there with your ‘logic’. Its kind of funny that you mention lawyers not liking their jobs however, because I had gotten to that point a couple of years ago. The reality was, however, that not only did I not like my job, I did not like much of anything. I was tired all the time, I had no energy, I was depressed and short tempered. I blamed it on all kinds of things, stress, having a weak immune system, medical issues, etc. Now why am I including this personal information, in this Robb v HQ debate, because you made it relevant. I LOVE being an attorney again. I Love almost everything about my life now. You know why……because when the doctors finally told me that they did not know what else to do for me, Rob gave me a simple, but scary suggestion: Try Paleo.
Turns out I suffer from Celiac’s Disease, (even my allergist had missed that possibility). My doctors have been amazed at my turn around, and have the testing results SHOWING how my blood tests went from universally horrible and off the scale bad, to being in almost all “excellent” range within 90 days. So here I am 60 lbs lighter, strong as an ox, all of the myrid medical problems I had been dealing with my entire life virtually vanished over night. I still don’t like the punishing WOD’s, I still have at least another 25 lbs to lose, and I think many of you “athletes” are crazy for the things you like to do, but I feel Great. I have two attorney friends who have now joined our gym, guess what, they are feeling better too. So watch out, there is a growing movement of revitalized attorneys looking to make sure that everyone knows the benefits of Paleo. =)
Now on to your points:
>”…is that this was not an official CrossFit event. If it had been, HQ would >have determined the content. Dave and others were there in their own >capacities. Legally, this exempts the corporation from responsibility, in >my understanding.”
Wow, for not being a lawyer, you sure try to make a legal conclusion. Problem is that Dave was there as a representative of CF Inc. He was there in an official capacity. If you think I am wrong, let him show you his receipt for being simply a ‘paying participant’.
>Moreover, this was not a workplace event. This was a seminar put on by >a group of individuals, and attended by people who were unconnected >corporately. It was the legal equivalent of a seminar on how to get rich in >Real Estate. To the extent there is legal culpability, it would fall on those >whose names were on the room reservation, and who took the fees that >were paid. This would include, presumably, Greg Everett himself.
BUZZZ…. Wrong again. The issue of “work place” violence and “hostile work environment” is not limited strictly to a conventional office or factory. Robb had a personal services contract with CF Inc. as an independent contractor. So while not technically an “employee” he had an employment contract with CF Inc. Dave is a supervisor for CF Inc. He was there representing CF Inc. There is your “corporate” connection, (though technically such is not required under current law). The issue is that Dave, as a supervisory employee of CF Inc., engaged in what appears to be hostile, demeaning and violent behavior WHILE representing CF Inc. That gives Robb an issue of hostile work environment, Greg an issue of assault, and the sponsors of the Black Box a claim for tortious interference.
Let me make it easy for you: IF what Dave did and said was not “relevant”, if this was some “off the record” meeting having no professional or CF connection such that what Dave said and did should not be seen as having anything to do with CF Inc., THEN that same rational would require that what Robb and Greg said would have to be viewed in the same light, and therefore immune from CF Inc. review, comment and punishment YET, you have Dave there, representing CF Inc., and then telling both Robb and Greg that they were “done” with CF, based on what they said at this event. Hmmm, good luck finding a jury to buy that hunk of cheese.
>It doesn’t surprise me that the first impulse of an attorney would be to >think legal sanctions and litigation. If your only tool is a hammer, all >problems start to look like nails.
Hmm, again. Is this supposed to mean something? Or do you just like reading such nonsensical tripe? I have a whole tool chest at my disposal, (both literally and figuratively). The point is that the law imposes certain duties on Corporations. If you don’t understand this, the primary reason why owners choose to operate their businesses through a corporation is to acquire both liability and tax protections. In return for these protections, the corporation is held up to a higher legal standard and can not be unilaterally operated by a single individual. Failing to live up to these standards or allowing one person to have unfettered control, thereby violates those standards, and allows shareholders, (potentially affiliates), and 3rd parties to sue the individual shareholders, officers and directors of the corporation. This is commonly known as “piercing the corporate veil”.
>As far as the legal interests of the Corporation, you do understand, don’t >you, that affiliation is not ownership in CrossFit, Inc (or whatever it is) >itself?
Yes, I understand that, but do you understand that ‘ownership’ is not required to file such lawsuits against a corporation in this situation. Rather than ownership, all one has to be able to allege, is that they 1) relied on CF Inc. to follow the law, 2) that CF Inc., failed to follow the law, 3) they were somehow damaged thereby. That is a negligence primer, (Duty, Breach and Causation). When discussing work place violence, then you have the added statutory duties that may impose punitive damages for failure of the Corporation to fully meet its duty under the law. What do you think it would do to the CF Brand, and the individual affiliates that paid money to affiliate with CF Inc., if Dave’s tantrum became an internet sensation. What do you think would happen if CF Inc., failed to properly investigate this situation, only to have Dave physically hurt someone later?
As a lawyer, I admit to having a different view of things. That different view is a capability to remove emotion, and look at the underlying issues. If you actually read my posts, you will notice that I have not said Robb did nothing wrong. What I originally stated, (and still believe), is that there is blame to go around for the situation developing as it did. HOWEVER, if what has been related is remotely accurate, Dave created a potential firestorm of liability problems for CF Inc., (especially for any future events). All someone will have to claim down the line, is that Dave hurt them, created a hostile work environment, etc. and that CF Inc., and all of its officers, directors, and shareholders should have known his propensity for violence, that they failed to make an adequate investigation in this case, and such failure to take these mandated steps, thereby caused the person’s injuries. Then…..there goes CF Inc., there goes the affiliation, there goes the brand, there goes the community, (and honestly, there goes Glassman’s house, retirement, etc., along with everyone else involved with the corp.
>The people who own CrossFit the brand are small in number, and >may >actually be limited to the Glassman’s themselves. Their “fiduciary duty”, >such that it is, is to themselves, legally. Your argument, therefore, is >empty.
Please review your first statement, “you are not a lawyer”. Second, review what a corporation is, legally. I have an 8 volume set in my office called the California Corporations Code. Please note that the vast majority of duties of the officers and directors of a corporation, are DUEL duties to those of their stockholders and the STATE. Their knowing failure to follow such rules, laws and duties, make them not only liable to the stockholders, but to anyone else who relies on the Corporation, (affiliates), to anyone hurt by their failure to follow the law, and to the state and potentially federal government. Not only are there reporting requirements to both state and feds, there are also required reports to their corporate liability carrier. If CF Inc., does not investigate this incident appropriately, I doubt they will appropriately fill out their disclosure statement to their liability carrier. This form is signed under penalty of perjury. Get my drift. This is a mine field of both civil and criminal liability.
> but I do think that the attendees will in fact be getting a Nutrition Expert, >as promised.
Again, you apparently missed the point. The relevant issue is not that Robb is “irreplaceable”, the issues is that CF Inc., should be employing a flexible corporate structure that allows its experts to give the best information they have, in a continual effort to support the best training and information available. That is how the brand is going to continue to grow, because rather than Excluding ideas, it is a system for INCLUDING and PROMOTING those practices that show actual success. That is the basic framework of an “open source” system, (which is why this is so remanescent of Wizards of the Coast and Peter Adkinson), who pioneered this very concept in the publication industry, and who later lost his empire due to succumbing to his own dictatorial and control demons. What CF Inc., seems to be saying, (and you have even admitted to), regardless of data, proof, and evidence against the Zone Diet being the one stop shop for everyone, CF Inc. wants to continue to promote that idea to the exclusion of all others. Why? Because that is the way Glassman wants it? Because that is what Dave wants? If it is any answer other than because it is the BEST answer, then it is repugnant to the corporate mission, and will devalue the brand.
>”… that does not affect the brand of CrossFit at all. Most people will never >meet Coach Glassman.
If you happen to read my posts, you will see that I have Never mentioned such old issues. However, CF Inc., is the issue here, not Glassman. If CF Inc., does not follow the law, (and if someone wants to go after them for it), then we will all suffer. Even more likely, nothing will happen “this time”, because Robb and Greg will move on and not want to dwell on this. But the next time Dave gets out of line, those lawyers who are just looking at a paycheck, are going to carve up CF Inc., and the Glassman family, and will be able to do so, because of their failures to live up to their legal obligations.
>Bill Gates has ALWAYS been notorious for his tirades. His business, none >the less, has done well, as I think we can agree. This aspect of his >personality is, for most people, completely irrelevant.
You do know that Bill Gates has not had any management control in almost 15 years, right? His tirades, control issues, and bad business practices, and the law suits they spawned, caused his institutional investors to push him out of management. He cost his company BILLIONS of dollars that they are still paying. Again, many times, the most gifted, smart and creative individuals, have a horrible time managing businesses, because their ‘character’ flaws, tend to multiply in severity.
>More generally, I can see why I annoy some of you: I argue my case >rationally, and you have no response.
Oh please, get over yourself. If your posts are what you believe constitute “logical arguments”, then you need to take a course in Logic and Critical Thinking. You might then understand the difference between a logical analogy and a self-serving example. Your posts are devoid of the first, and filled with the second, (I wanted to make sure you understood my comment). You annoy people for the same reason I do. We are long winded, full of ourselves, and ultimately stroking our own egos. The only difference, is that I let people know when I am jerking them off, and you think you are actually getting away with it unnoticed.
>It must be frustrating.
Nope, I rather enjoy this. Please continue dithering on if you must. But then again, I am an ass.
>You COULD use this as a learning experience. You COULD try to see things from my point of view.
I have learned much from you, and I always try to see things from others points of view. I don’t think what I learned is what you intended, and unfortunately, part of what I have learned is that you don’t really have a point of view…..other than you want to give Glassman cart blanch to do, say, or act in any way he wants, (even if such violates the law). Everything else you have written, is just “your” justification for your position.
>Or, of course, you can insult me. If you’ve been reading me long, surely >none of you are stupid enough to think that will make an iota of >difference, except in the direction of increasing my mental focus, and >tenacity in the defense of my viewpoints, which you have otherwise left >untouched?
When I addressed you directly in my post, it was in the hope, that I could bait you to do what you have done, (respond). I don’t need to insult you, I just need to keep you writing. So please, do increase your mental focus, and your tenacity…..it is your only hope. =)
Dave-
Are you saying we are creating a race of Paleo Powered Attorneys?!
What in God’s name have we done?
Barry
I’m not going to throw out an insult or attack you. I made a jab at you before, but it was just a jab. You have stated some level headed, compromise based, well thought out opinions of the unfortunate situation between Robb and CFHQ. That being said…those were quiete a few posts ago. I get that you are defending your friend and trying to be the harmonizer within a fractured community, but when is the time to back off. You need your opinion to be heard so bad that you will shout it out to the deafest of ears. Google Narcissism. Study the vast return. I think it may answer a lot of questions about why you always have to have the last word?
“The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress.”
– Joseph Joubert
I came across this quote on a completely unrelated discussion group, and throught it was SO appropriate I had to post it. If Castro had this attitude we wouldn’t be seeing the discussion going on here. And if some people visiting Robb’s site had the same attitude the discussion might be more productive.
Justin, very good point.
Barry, I also don’t see where you responded to my points. Your posts since mine suggest to me you haven’t read them. (Obviously I’m not saying that a lack of response to my tome counts as a victory to me. Do as you wish.)
Robb, out of curiosity were Tony and Dave initially invited?
Now that the peanut gallery is all that apparently remains, I will call this discussion a day. Robb has already asked me to, and this is, after all, his blog. I think the productive aspect of it is complete. Through the input of all of you my own views have developed to what I believe to be an accurate understanding of the events and people involved.
I love it. Seb and Dave, with the most thoughtful, informative, and logical posts are just the peanut gallery? Convenient for you, Barry. Rationalize your bow-out however you choose, but it’s crystal clear to anyone who reads through this thread that you got smacked the f*** down, yo. =)
Dave,
That post was like poetry. I thoroughly enjoyed it, is that strange? Should I seek immediate psychiatric help? But seriously, well done. I haven’t read something so completely intelligent on the interweb in a long time.
Grambo,
Crossfit prepares us for physical challenges outside the gym. Hypertrophy in and of itself does not help meet those challenges.
The Crossfit philosophy is that what matters is picking up the log, not how hypertrophied you are. Hypertrophy will never help you pick up a log, because the definition of hypertrophy is an increase in the size of your muscle cells. Not strength, just size. If your muscles get huge but you don’t add strength, you will not be any better at picking up the log than before.
The question posed to Nicole (translated out of exercise science jargon) was “which portion of the deadlift, picking it up or putting it down, best promotes growth in the size of muscles?” This question is irrelevant to the challenge of picking up a log. In real life you may need to pick up a log, or you may need to lower one to the ground slowly without injuring your back. Training just one part of the deadlift with the goal of increased muscle size (again, not strength, just size) is irrelevant in this context. We need to both pick up heavy objects AND put them down.
The particular rules of certain sporting events clearly require such a detailed level of knowledge about the human body. As Robb mentioned, this knowledge would be useful if you are coaching a fighter who is trying to gain strength without hypertrophy. Knowledge of hypertrophy is also, of course, of primary importance in bodybuilding, where the size and proportionality of one’s musculature is the only goal.
Crossfit is explicitly NOT in that business. Crossfit provides a general level of physical preparedness that can be applied to a wider range of physical endeavors than any other training program. It also prepares you to pick up logs and put them back down without having to get out the dictionary. That’s Crossfit’s shtick, it’s what they do, it’s who they are. Robb’s comment demonstrated he doesn’t fully understand this.
Latham-
once again your complete lack of any technical understanding shows through. In physiology what is the fundamental measure of a muscles contractile potential Latham?
Answer:
Crosssectional diamater. All other things being equal, crosssectional diamater is THE determinant of strength. Neural factors and leverages are certainly contributors, but crosssectional diamater reigns supreme. Latham, related to this, can yu please expand upon the role leverages play in force production…I’d like your thoughts on this topic both from the perspective of muscle insertion issues as well as intra-muscular leverages and what if any role a relative amount of hypertrophy mught influence both force production factors.
Again Latham, you do not know enough to even have a conversation at this table. You are regurgitating the ONE source of inforamtion you have on this topic. You have no fucking idea what the scope of CF is. Latham, what is the potential role for phenotypic expression of H. Sapiens and what does this imply with regards to health and longevity? The reality is CF (properly programmed) Meets the requiremeents for full phenotypic expression:
http://jp.physoc.org/content/543/2/399.full
Latham, what you have done is missed the fact that seemingly simple protocols can have highloy complex underpinnings and implications. You have missed the fact that if we do not understand WHY we are doing somehting we literally operate in a “Black Box” in whihc we have no understanding, only RITUAL and SUPERSTITION. You are admonishing people for a desire to UNDERSTAND. Are you aware I helped to start the FIRST full time CF facility in a Physical Therapy setting?
Latham, you can go pound sand. What you are sugesting is that we should all just shut up, cease questioning and be content with what we have. You can do that, not me. That is what has had me in trouble with HQ nearly since the beginning. I hope to hell I never cease questioning and trying to find out better ways. I hope I’m always trying to improve myself.
Latham-
Now, let’s talk liability.
Please comment on the role of eccentric vs. concentric loading in the production of rhabdomyolysis.
I’ll tackle this one for ya:
The main contributions to rhabdo are exhaustion of a muscle such that calcium homeostasis is severely disturbed and ECCENTRIC LOADING. Said another way, one may induce rhabdo via exhaustion or eccentric loading or a combination.
So Latham, CrossFit has formed an RRG to protect itself from line item exclusion from insurance carriers becasue of the potential for a class-action suit against CF regarding rhabdo. YOU are arguing that an understanding of ECCENTRIC loading is a waste of time…is it at all possible that we are at this crossroads in which we need extraordinary protection from litigation because nearly everyone from the Directors of Training down to most affiliates have no fucking understanding of basic science, including anatomy and physiology? YOU are telling me Latham that a fundamental understanding of THE CAUSE OF RHABDO will not mitigate the instances of rhabdo?
You see Latham, basic understanding of one’s field of work actually has transferable benefits. I can actually THINK about the subject. Although eccentric movement is or primary importance in both hypertrophy training and strength improvements, it has significant implications for things as far afield as liability.
I was going to ask you to stop posting on here but that would be a serious mistake on my part. You are singlehandedly exposing the fallacies and inconsistencies of CF better than I ever could individually. You have reinforced the fact that a bunch of people, ignorantly wielding a powerful tools are dangerous. If I had it in me I could not create an alternate persona and post anonymously and get the same effect. Thank You.
Hear, Hear!
That’s it in a nutshell, Robb… couldn’t have said it better myself.
The real tragedy of CrossFit is that it took something really useful, exposed an enormous amount of people to it… then convinced them to ignore everything else that is useful.
I daily feel regret for the face that I once let Glassman influence my business decisions… I am ashamed to have EVER been “affiliated” with that charlatan.
Zach
Zach, are you Zach Even-Esh? Or someone else?
C’mon Robb, Latham has all the cossfit answers. He’s been there a whole year and a half! Really, what else is there to know?
Richard-
No shit hugh? Never trained anyone…never, ran a gym but has all the answers? Funny, every time I end up talking with Coach Sommer, Michael Rutherford, Rip, OPT or similar folks I discover what dumb-ass I am but it’s with people who have actually DONE more than me.
I guess actual experience and educational background has no bering in certain situations? Weird.
Not me…
Sorry Irongarmers… just some guy named Zach… not one of your man crushes 🙂
… not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Zach
“If your muscles get huge but you don’t add strength, you will not be any better at picking up the log than before.”
Latham, I’m guessing you cannot provide examples of people with huge muscles that haven’t added any strength. You probably are able to provide examples of people with huge muscles that are not as strong as they look, and most likely confused the former with that.
Justin
Oh Snap… I love that Barry said “manifestly.”
Barry Said:
>”Now that the peanut gallery is all that apparently remains, I will call this >discussion a day. ”
No…..Say it ain’t so Charlie Brown. What’s happened to your tenacity? Your mental focus? Your clear superiority over those of us in the peanut gallery require your continued obfuscations. If not you, who is going to show us the ‘right’ way?
>I think the productive aspect of it is complete.
LOL, the productive aspect of this “discussion” continues, its just that you and I were never really a part of it. I hope this is part of your realization, but I figure it is just you finally realizing that every word you type just makes you look more foolish.
>Through the input of all of you my own views have developed to what I believe to be an accurate understanding of the events and people involved.
Wow, “your views” are now an “accurate understanding”, so I guess you are trying to say that “your views” are now the truth? How convenient for you. Some might call that a ‘self reinforcing delusion’; I think, therefore I know the truth. See, I keep learning new theories and philosophies from you all the time. Thank you for your continued patronage. =)
Ok, your turn Rob:
>Are you saying we are creating a race of Paleo Powered Attorneys?!
>What in God’s name have we done?
Hey, even us attorney’s deserve better health. It just may make us not so nasty, or in my case, at least reserve such nastiness for those who really deserve it.*
>Latham-
>Now, let’s talk liability.
Hey there, that’s my schtick. That’s like me trying to be a nutrition expert. Let’s face it, I would have little to say. ;=)
Actually, now that I think of it, I guess that would make me a perfect “expert” for CF Inc. All I could do would be to regurgitate what I have been told, and dismiss everything I had not been “prepped” for, since I have no independent knowledge base on the subject.
*Denotes that I have the exclusive power, with full right of reservation, to decide who deserves such nastiness, and to fully prosecute such beliefs without recourse to logic or factual basis, with full capacity to delude myself into believing such acts are justified and appropriate, (or constructive), as I might see fit.
I’m trying to imagine the training implication of focusing on the eccentric portion of the deadlift with the goal of maximizing hypertrophy. You would take the weight out of a rack, lower it to the ground, strip the weight, put the bar back on the rack, load it up, and repeat for reps. Alternatively you could have someone else pick it back up for you each time, presumably someone who is doing the opposite: trying to get strength without hypertrophy. The two of you could be buddies – one would be huge and be really good at lowering the weight and the other would be skinny and be really good at picking it up. Working together and swapping the bar at the top of the lift, you could complete one full deadlift.
I can’t see how focusing on only one part of the deadlift will make a trainee better at both parts. I’m not a professional trainer, but I know that both parts of the deadlift are important. This seems pretty straightforward. I’m familiar with Coach Rut’s programming and I’ve read Starting Strength, and I don’t recall a recommendation to only do one part of the deadlift in a workout.
Is this something you guys are programming for your clients? Do they pick up and then drop the weight for reps, or put the weight down, strip the plates and re-rack it after each rep? I am guessing that 99% of them are just doing regular old deadlifts.
This’ll be my last post. I haven’t made any personal attacks but have received many in return. I’ll take the one about me representing CFHQ and possibly being an alias for Tony Budding as a compliment. 🙂
Latham-
Take the RDL, you simply emphasize the eccentric portion of the movement. No need for he complexity you are describing. I would again direct you to OPT’s site:
http://optimumperformancetraining.blogspot.com/
He makes extensive use of various rep-speed protocols for desired effects:
Day 10 Training:
A1. Front Squat @ 30X0; 2-3 x 5; rest 10 sec
A2. AMRAP Chin Ups; 5 sets; rest 240 sec
+
3 rounds for time;
135/95# hang squat clean unbroken x 10
35 anchored it ups
post loads/reps for A1/A2 and time for conditioning workout to comments
So, there ARE applications for all this. There ARE implications for all this ie. rhabdo and significant liability. Keep posting if you like, ask questions. What was pissing me off was you telling me I don’t understand the fitness protocol Greg Glassman has publicly said I wass a “co-developer” of.
Justin said:
>Latham, I’m guessing you cannot provide examples of people with huge >muscles that haven’t added any strength. You probably are able to provide >examples of people with huge muscles that are not as strong as they look, >and most likely confused the former with that.
I was going to make fun of Latham by ‘supporting’ his argument by mentioning how my Belly got bigger throughout my 30’s and I got weaker, but then realized I actually knew of a real world example that would do a better job.
My 89 year old grandmother was just diagnosed with congestive heart failure. Her heart is approximately twice as large as it should be. Now we all know the heart is a muscle. When the heart is not working efficiently, it can grow, (becoming enlarged), in an effort to compensate for its weakness. This, however, actually further degrades the heart’s ability to efficiently pump blood. So I guess you could say that, ‘this is an example of someone, developing a “huge muscle” without developing any more strength’. So there ya go Latham, your example. I’m sure you will see how this ‘real world’ situation supports your position that it doesn’t matter how large your muscles are, and that we should ignore such issues. Please continue your lesson.
2nd issue. Many women don’t want to look ‘muscular’. I hear that all the time at the gym, and from people I talk to about cross fit. They worry about doing ‘weight training’, (flipping tires, picking up logs, etc.). They worry about starting to look like female body builders. Now I am not a trainer, (as if). I am sure Robb and Nicki, and every other “real” trainer out there hears these complaints/concerns a thousand fold more than I do. If you know little to nothing about how and why muscles grow, versus, how to strengthen that muscle without increasing its size, how are you going to be able to honestly, and authoritatively explain to that person how you will prevent that from happening?
Sure, even I can give a bullshit answer that will probably convince 75% of the people out there, (lower weight and lots of repetitions vs higher weight and fewer reps). I’m real good at convincing people that I know what I am talking about, (even when I don’t). But a REAL trainer, SHOULD know the real answers and know the real underlying metabolic and physiological underpinnings of the answer. That way, the trainer can design a fitness regiment for that client that WILL NOT lead to muscle growth. To say otherwise, to say that “it does not matter”, is not only bull shit, it is completely disrespectful to the client who has those real fears and concerns.
As an example, (please note not an analogy), it would be like hiring Barry to be your attorney. Good luck with that. =)
Crossfit reality TV Show?
Dave = My Hero
Robb – what does the 30×0 stand for in the program
Steve-
Do some searching on “Poliquin rep tempo”
Dave,
I thought Robb had deleted the previous post, so continuing discussion was pointless.
CrossFit, Inc., then, has a board of directors. Instead of 2 people we now have 5-10 people. Those people know Dave Castro, and have now likely privately excoriated Dave Castro. This is the first time he has created a liability issue, and he has likely been put on notice that a second offense will lead to his termination. The Board is fine with those decisions, as Dave has otherwise been an asset, most of the time. Fiduciary Duty is served.
Moreover, Dave was NOT operating in an official capacity. The chairs did not say CrossFit. He was not the personal envoy of CrossFit, Inc.
Regardless, go ahead, sue them. See what happens. People threaten to sue every day, and some of them do. And if no lawsuit is going to be filed, then why do you care? Because that is a subtle way of insulting CrossFit HQ and others, and because you know your chain of events will never be tested with actual litigation?
Robb, I have to say, after reading all this, I have reached the same conclusion Dave C. did: you need to resign your affiliation. You are basically encouraging Dave, here, to go on and on about the legal and moral culpability of CrossFit HQ, talking down to people about their lack of knowledge of the hypertrophic potential of eccentric lifts, and generally not acting like you like anyone who runs CrossFit.
I can see perfectly well why Dave lost his temper. I’m just not sure that CrossFit is big enough for your ego and Coach’s. I don’t buy that you are smarter than Barry Sears OR Coach. I just don’t. Barry Sears may not have much experience training athletes, but that can be fixed.
And YOU are the one who keep saying CrossFit is falling apart. Why is it falling apart, if it is? Because YOU keep saying it is. You keep saying that nobody listens. They don’t listen to YOU, because they don’t agree with you. This is not being authoritarian. This is having a backbone and not kowtowing to everyone who thinks they know better.
You are the equivalent of the Medical Doctor where the rest of us are Physicians Assistants. MD’s know a lot more, but for run of the mill stuff their training only makes an iota of difference very rarely. P.A’s and Nurse Practitioners can do pretty much everything they can.
If I put somebody on the Zone, drop their body fat to 15% or so, then tell them to supplement as needed with peanut butter or almonds, that will get them health and decent performance. Anything beyond that is fractions of a percent.
I will make that my last post, since this whole thing is making me progressively more angry.
Nope, I do not, as a rule, delete posts. If it;s complete ass-hatery then, yes I delete it before it sees the light of day.
I’ve been following the comments every day since the BBS shenanigans and am finally compelled to put in a brief word of my own:
This is not about Zone vs. Paleo or Sears vs. Wolf.
This is not about whether the medicine ball clean is an effective training tool for learning the Olympic lifts.
This IS about the attitude of HQ toward differing perspectives.
In a perfect world, this is what would’ve happened instead of the confrontation at BBS: Robb would be invited to write an article for the CFJ about how to turn clients on to the Paleo Diet (or something like it) and why it’s effective. Barry Sears would also be invited to write about the Zone Diet. Then the Comments section would soon be filled with pointed yet respectful arguments from experts and laymen alike, and we would all have the opportunity to learn and to find what works best for us.
Also, the HQ mainpage would link to Greg Everett’s “Teaching the Olympic Lifts in the CrossFit Group Setting.” Then, if Greg Glassman or Dave C or Tony Budding or anybody wanted to post a response claiming either that Everett is wrong or that his points are irrelevant to the CrossFitter, he may do so. And once again, let the comments begin, and let us all benefit from them.
HQ is not falling apart. In fact, it’s still moving forward (in the right direction?) But what saddens me is that it’s not moving forward at the pace it should because the powers that be turn a blind eye to many brilliant men and women simply because they disagree on some specifics.
I don’t know the politics behind all this or who left for what reason, but I feel like I get the big picture. Please correct me if there’s something deeper at work.
Robb, for what it’s worth, your blog is one great example of how HQ could operate better. You post your perspective and explain why it is what it is, allow all other perspectives, answer all questions, and lead by example. Thank you.
And no, the medicine ball clean is not an effective training tool for learning the Olympic lifts.
I wrote that I had a “brief” word but then I saw it, and the comment area looks like a football field. My bad.
Barry,
What you don’t realize is that most of the Crossfit community is behind Robb on this. You are doing untold damage to your own business by blasting off on these forums.
Good luck. You’ll need it !
Barry, making me the winner of my bet with my wife that he just COULDN’T walk away without trying to have the last word:
> This is the first time he has created a liability issue, and he has likely >been put on notice that a second offense will lead to his termination. The >Board is fine with those decisions, as Dave has otherwise been an asset, >most of the time. Fiduciary Duty is served.
Geez Barry, how many times do I have to explain this. I am NOT saying it is my opinion that CF Inc. must do a 3rd party investigation into Castro’s Follies, it is the requirement of both California and Federal Case law. Further, it is a standard requirement on all business liability policies, (due to the state and federal cases), because the Insurance Company does not want to take the chance to be responsible for the HUGE damages that can result from a company NOT following the proper procedures. Whether YOU believe a private censure is enough is both irrelevant and further demonstrates your lack of understanding of the issue. Who the F*CK cares what YOU think, (or for that matter I think). I am talking about well established legal requirements, that I would be requiring any corporation or business for which I was their counsel, (and signed their yearly statement of disclosures to their liability carriers), to employ.
Let me put it this way, If Robb came to me, (or I found out) that one of Robb’s trainers had committed a similar “violent” episode, and knowing that all of Robb’s trainers are close friends of his; I would do EVERYTHING in my power to make Robb do the 3rd party investigation, suspension of the trainer, etc. JUST AS I AM RELATING WHAT THE LAW REQUIRES CF INC. TO DO.
Nothing different. Nothing less. It would not matter if the trainer were a personal friend of mine. This is NOT about friendship. This is not about “personal loyalty”. This is about PROTECTING clients, affiliates, co-workers, and the business entity itself. Again, WHO is now going to perjur themselves by signing the yearly insurance disclosure? Someone’s going to have to, or they will have to drop their liability insurance altogether. NO, they just can’t switch, because the new policy, will have a “look back” disclosure, whereby you have to fill out the same disclosure under penalty of perjury.
>Moreover, Dave was NOT operating in an official capacity. The chairs did >not say CrossFit. He was not the personal envoy of CrossFit, Inc.
I made this easy for you above Barry. Have Dave provide his receipt for his personal payment of $1,000 to the BBS, (whereby he was simply a private paying attendee). Do that, and your “belief” that Dave was not “representing CF Inc.”, might have some traction. Short of that, I am going to go with the repeated statements of Greg, Robb, Dutch, etc., that Dave was there, (and expressly made it known), that he was there on behalf of CF Inc., (HQ). Please note, that your “belief” would also have to account for how Dave could “invite Buerger”, (or whatever the guy’s name is that wrote up the CF article on the BBS). He specifically said that he was Dave Castro’s guest. How could Castro, as simply a paying private attendee, INVITE someone to the BBS, who also did not pay to attend? The only reasonable conclusion is that Dave invited him, because Dave was the representative of CF Inc., and wanted Buerger to chronicle the event for CF Inc.
Again Barry, you can manufacture any beliefs you want. That doesn’t make them logical, persuasive, or even rational. Saying that Dave was not representing CF Inc., is easy. Presenting any FACTS, Anecdotes, or evidence to support your statement is the hard part, (because it is not accurate). I have multiple people saying Dave told them he was there representing CF Inc. I have multiple people saying they did not really want him there, (because of his past transgressions), but felt they couldn’t keep him away as he was the CF Inc. rep. I got the guy saying Dave invited him to chronicle the BBS for CF Inc. What you got? ……
See, that’s the difference between a Statement and an Argument. You are making a statement, I am making an argument. An argument that to date, you have been unable to refute or discredit with anything other than your own personal beliefs.
>Regardless, go ahead, sue them. See what happens. People threaten to >sue every day, and some of them do. And if no lawsuit is going to be >filed, then why do you care? Because that is a subtle way of insulting >CrossFit HQ and others, and because you know your chain of events will >never be tested with actual litigation?
If Robb or Greg asked me to, I would certainly consider it. However, I already stated above that I doubt either of them, (or the BBS group itself), will file such a law suit. What you apparently still DON’T understand is, that now Dave is a WALKING time bomb of liability. ANYONE, an affiliate, a co-worker, a volunteer at the Games, a motel worker where he stays at during CF Inc. trips, anyone coming into contact with Dave, and then claiming that he created a hostile work environment, assaulted them, etc., not only will have a claim for that incident, but probable punitive damages against CF Inc., their officers and directors, because they failed to properly investigate and Stop Dave from creating future such incidents.
That is why this has become a HUGE liability issue for corporations across the country, and why GL insurers are all requiring the yearly disclosures. If you really feel that strongly, and secure about your opinions, then maybe you can convince CF Inc., to appoint you as the Corporate Compliance Officer or Controller. Then you can sign the disclosure statements under penalty of perjury stating that you have made a diligent inquiry, and are unaware of any claims, events, or actions that could give rise to any current or future liability against the corporation, or any of its officers, directors or employees.
>Robb, I have to say, after reading all this, I have reached the same >conclusion Dave C. did: you need to resign your affiliation.
LOL…..”after reading all this”…..Dude, get a grip. You have been stating the same crap from your first post to your last. You agree with Dave. What Dave did does not matter. Glassman is God. Robb deserved to get fired, because he did not ‘submit’ to the all powerful dictatorial presence of HQ. All hail the Chief. Ignore the Barbarians at the Gate. et fini, et fini
>You are basically encouraging Dave, here, to go on and on about the legal >and moral culpability of CrossFit HQ, talking down to people about their >lack of knowledge of the hypertrophic potential of eccentric lifts, and >generally not acting like you like anyone who runs CrossFit.
Wait, first you are mistaken about Robb asking you to stop posting. Then you think I care or even know WTF hypertrophic potential is. Damn dude, do you actually READ any of these posts? I have been “talking down” to you, because you are spewing bullshit quasi legal jargon that you have absolutely no real understanding of. I will let Robb “talk down” to you about the technical aspects of nutrition and fitness, because I have no ability to.
If you are referencing my post regarding Lathem, please note that I was making an analogy of why his statement that “building larger muscles” is not something CF is concerned about. That was a statement clearly made by a lay person, (as I know crap about nutrition and physiology). It was making fun of his premise, not talking down to him.
>I can see perfectly well why Dave lost his temper.
So you are saying that you now “believe” and “agree” that it is excusable for Dave to physically attack someone because he did not like what they had to say? Is that your way of saying that if you could, you would reach through your monitor to attack me? Wow, the philosophy and lessons you are trying to teach us are simply staggering……
>And YOU are the one who keep saying CrossFit is falling apart. Why is it >falling apart, if it is? Because YOU keep saying it is.
Not sure if this was directed at Robb or I, but from my view, CF Inc’s apparent refusal to follow the law, dictates that they have embarked on a slippery slope of liability and corporate malfeasance that has little chance to end in anything other than disaster at some point, (unless these problems are solved).
>You are the equivalent of the Medical Doctor where the rest of us are >Physicians Assistants. MD’s know a lot more, but for run of the mill stuff >their training only makes an iota of difference very rarely. P.A’s and >Nurse Practitioners can do pretty much everything they can.
Nicely done, promoting yourself to the equivalent a 4 year degree that also requires a 2 year internship, (plus numerous board exams to secure your licensing). Wow….you really do think highly of yourself. Get a few certs., talk a big game, and voila……You are the equivalent of a highly trained medical expert.
I used a dig with Latham about him hiring you as his attorney, (given your obvious view of your expertise in the area), now I guess you can be his Nurse too. Good luck with that.
>I will make that my last post,
Yeah, I remember you said that before. I’m still betting it won’t be the last time we hear from you.
>this whole thing is making me >progressively more angry.
Angry….what happened to that mental fortitude, or focus, you know, whatever you were boasting about a few posts ago. Oh yeah, and your tenacity. I guess these qualities are as superficial as your knowledge of physiology and nutrition.
HAVE A NICE DAY =)
Barry,
I am read all of your posts and at times agree with you. Your focus has turned too narrow. There are affiliates “not just Robb and his ego” that are pissed. There voices regardless of all of the spin that HQ aka Coach Glassman or the inner koolaid drinkers profess is that quite frankly most of the affiliates don’t speak up and feel silenced or worse yet apathetic, why should they…
Yes, this is simply a brand issue. I can get “certed” in CrossFit, Spinning, ACSM, NSCA, whatever, but some affiliates bought into the fact that they helped build the brand. Without the internet and the viral spread of the community it simply would be just another training method…period that is a fact. Greg didn’t just magically come up with this in his garage, they were trying to find a “way” to make some money. They were trainers to their own word that slept in the gym training clients. So, apparently they were like all the other trainers trying to make a living and trying find a way to be successful. Trying different things until they hit upon a marketing concept. There is reference to training like this from the 1970’s in a wrestling strength book. This is nothing new…What was new was the community that wrought it and the power of the internet…that is fact.
We took a love to the fact that WE are the brand and therefore deserve a say. If you disagree fine, I don’t and believe that we do. The problem Barry is many of us deeply loved it not just as a business but as something more that I cannot philosophize (my word). Also, not as blind koolaid cult sychophants. So, it is not a simple Greg can do whatever the hell he wants and screw the input unless your one of the inner buds. People are walking away because of this, because the feel hurt, let down, whatever, I don’t really give a damn if you think they are weak or should grow up. They gave a shit and wanted to help and have been getting trounced.
I appreciate your “logical” arguements but you miss the bigger picture and so do many of inner group that this is about heart not logic, community and family, not business. Leadership not management and quite frankly unless you by into the pure brand of koolaid… Greg is short on leadership.
Perhaps they will awaken, I had one interaction with Dave and he was a Dick then and I don’t really care if people say thats his “personality”, being a dick and being unprofessional is just that. I served 11 years in the military and for the last 3 was an instructor and never and I mean never would I stand up and say what he said to an instructor or in front of a class…It is pure and simple classlessness…there is no excuse…period
Dave won’t be trounced, the games that are and will continue to grow are hosted on his property, so lets not talk about fairness. 1500 rough affiliates or just brand spreaders if you like are not speaking, 150 or so have left, some after just a few months because they felt that what is paraded and what is real are two very different things…Again Barry you do have some great posts and I have followed it on the main page but heart not logic here Barry, life not philosophy while I respect it, in this case is a weakness…
Dave,
Any chance you can you link to the section of California Law on the 3rd party investigation stuff if it is in fact online. I find the topic interesting. Thanks
Barry = MANIFESTLY OWNED
I know Robb is into Charles Darwin, as evidenced by the “I think” graphic at the top right of the page, and his Darwinian approach. Charles Darwin had a friend named Thomas Henry Huxley, who was known as Darwin’s Bulldog. Huxley publicly defended Darwin and completely embarrassed critics. I nominate Dave to recieve the title of “Wolf’s Bulldog.” Barry, you are manifestly a student of the history of ideas, so you manifestly know all of that, but for anyone else who is manifestly interested, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Henry_Huxley
First off, as Jon stated, I too have read all the posts & finally have to throw in my two cents.
Jon; Well stated facts. The personal feelings/issues between HQ, Robb, Greg, & the likes, are an aside from the fact that what appears to be @ least several hundred people have good ideas & great intentions for the betterment & survival of Crossfit. Looks to me like Helen Keller is in charge of HQ’s complaint department.
Barry, I was starting to see some objective views in your posts, where did they go? You now agree w/Dave Castro & see why he acted the way he did defending HQ’s views? Weren’t Robb & Greg defending their views as well, but in a more dignified manner? And if Dave Castro wasn’t operating in official HQ capacity then how could he tell Robb & Greg they were finished with Crossfit? Sounds to me like he was speaking for HQ , or did it just mean that that he was going to “tell the teacher” on them? Dave Castro should’ve gotten his ass kicked by every attendee for attempting to ruin what was otherwise a very successful meeting, but everyone else there acted as adults. And your comment about HQ having a backbone & not kowtowing to protect their beliefs, isn’t that exactly what Robb & Greg were/are doing? Barry, it looks like you have successfully adopted the double standards of HQ, do as we say, not as we do.
Dave; You’ve got him on the ropes, a few more blows to the ego & he’s out!
I have been to Greg’s O lifting seminar twice & found it very helpful for myself, as well as helping to teach others. He was nothing but professional & used humor to enhance his public speaking, which makes it fun & keeps the audience interested & alert. He takes digs @ himself just as much as he does anyone else, which shows he’s not attacking anyone personally.
As for Robb, I have had the pleasure of him training me, as well as working side by side with him. We all know he’s amazingly smart, but what pisses me off me is the few people attacking his credibility & morales to stand up for his not only beliefs, but his knowingness that what he teaches actually works. He puts in hours upon hours researching & experimenting with nutrition to help thousands of people he doesn’t even know. Wow, what a selfish, egotistical asshole. Robb, Thank you!
Robb I posted this morning and wrote a heartful reply to Barry but I don’t see it up…any ideas? I know that you aren’t about censorship…
By the way here is CrossFit before it was CrossFit…lets get over this Coach invented this….
In 1968 (Pat) O’Shea developed a system that he designated “aerobic” weight training. He commented that it was based on the two principles developed by Cooper relative to aerobic training and the development of circulo-respiratory endurance:
(a) If the exercise develops a heart rate of 150 beats per minute or higher, the development effects begin five minutes after the activity starts and continues as long as the activity is performed
(b) If the activity does not develop a sustained heart rate of 150 beats per minute, the activity must be continued considerably longer than five minutes, such as long distance running, cycling, etc.
O’Shea’s system is based on a circuit interval training approach, with progressive increases in the amount of resistance used in the exercises … his research reflected that students participating in the program reached a sustained rate of 154 beats per minute for 20 minutes, and the group registered significant improvement in cardio-vascular fitness over an eight-week period.
Several years ago the writer designed a group of weight training routines to develop circulo-respiratory endurance in Olympic weight lifters. The interval training principle was employed, using weights in the 10-30 percent range of maximum with a progressive increase in repetitions (20 to 40) on each exercise for two sets and with varying rest periods of one to three minutes between sets and exercises.
Ten exercises at one station composed a routine. The exercises used were Olympic lift skill movements (press, snatch, clean and jerk) and explosive weight training assistance movements (jumping squats, etc.) interspersed with one stationary running exercise. It took 35 to 45 minutes to complete the entire routine.
Pulse rates during a routine ranged from 122 to 185 during the entire period which is in the pulse range recommended by Gerschler for use with interval training programs for runners. The routines developed physiological aspects of both aerobic and anaerobic endurance.
The preceding paragraphs are excerpted from John Jesse’s remarkable book titled “Wrestling Physical Conditioning Encyclopedia, published by The Athletic Press, Pasadena, CA, in 1974.
One small excerpt but worth reading….nothing new under the sun just BRANDED very well.
Will-
I thought I OK’d everything…let me know if it did not go up! Great piece regarding Oshea.
Robb, Wow. Crazy story man. I’m just a little over a year of serious crossfitting and I know enough to hate all this for everyone. I’m glad I got in at the Nutrition Cert in Atlanta a couple weeks ago though for sure! That was some incredible stuff. Hate to see the family at odds with one another. Sounds like Dave hat a little problem with the challenge. Doesn’t knowing your right bring some level of confidence? I learned one time in a psychology class that the people who fly off the hinge like that almost alway have some underlying fear and guilt to feed that kind of anger – it doesn’t usually come from righteous indignation. That kind of anger is typically more calm and confident.
anyway, it sucks. Sorry bro!
– Aaron
Barry,
Looks like you spend hours a day online. Why don’t you focus some of that energy on your own web site?
http://www.crossfitlouisville.blogspot.com/
Chris
Gentlemen, where is the video. I grow wary and would like to form my own opinion.
Parker said:
“Charles Darwin had a friend named Thomas Henry Huxley, who was known as Darwin’s Bulldog. Huxley publicly defended Darwin and completely embarrassed critics. I nominate Dave to recieve the title of “Wolf’s Bulldog.”
Wow, thanks for the insight. I personally was not aware of Mr. Huxley’s role in the defense of Darwin’s theories. While I don’t think I have earned that comparison; I certainly appreciate the sentiment, and hope that Robb’s findings, theories, and insights, will become as revolutionary and widespread as Darwin’s. If I can do my little bit to help make that happen, then I would truly be honored to have a little footnote in history as “Wolf’s Bulldog”.
Will, that is a seriously great find. Thanks for sharing it.
I tried to post a response to Anonymous about workplace violence, but it does not appear to be posting. I normally don’t do web citations, so maybe I screwed that part up, which is causing the problem. Anyways, just trying to complete the issue, I posted the response on my personal blog:
http://www.slimmingthoughts.blogspot.com
So you can check out that info there, (until the response is properly posted here).
It came through Robb thanks!, sadly they have effectively shut this down on the CrossFit main page. Censorship at its best…
Dave, excellent legal pawnage of Barry. I’m not sure if it was covered or not, but in response to Barry’s “Castro was not operating in an official capacity” argument, California Civil Code sections 2298, 2230, et. seq. on ostensible authority as well as some sections in the Corporations Code which I am too lazy to research now would be applicable to this set of facts. The guy apparently is a “walking time bomb” as you say, and I agree with you that any officer or executive worth their salt would understand that retaining an individual like that will only significantly jeopardize the company. Poor business judgment.
Also, Will has removed the proverbial curtain to expose the wizard in Glassman by posting that excerpt from Jesse. Critical thinkers still enamored with CF take note.
I have just put the “wrestling physical conditioning encylopedia” on hold through my library. It should be in my possession in a week or so. If anyone is interested, I can try and scan some of the more pertinent pages, but I’m not too sure on the copyright issues. Anyone? Maybe I can just type some of it up.
Also, here is a thread at catalyst about the book:
http://www.cathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=897
And some other links:
http://www.elitefts.com/documents/sandbag_arsenal.htm
This guy seems to sell the book, but not sure if he owns the copyright. I’m going to check:
http://www.superstrengthbooks.com/john_jesse.html
That book Brad is an awesome book. I just ordered it. Jesse was a genuis for his day….What is old is new again…haha
Robb,
apologies for offending you. I may have gotten a little carried away.
I will try out OPT’s programming.
Thanks!
Robb,please post the videos from the summit of the incident(s).Get everything out in the open including past mistreatment/skullduggery perpetrated against you and any other SME’s.The spin campaign spearheaded by Castro has begun.There is a funny side and irongarmers will get this but he says in his video that the true enemy is couch…yes…let us vanquish couch
William-
I do not have the videos, I’d LOVE to have them come out.
Rob,
I was introduced to you by Mike Smith from CrossfitHB at the ’09 Games in Aromas. Wow, sounds as if somebody needs to check his ego in and reasses his reasons for being involved with Crossfit. Academia and Crossfit need to be able to coexist and meld their findings to deliver the best methods for training.
It seems as if there is always rift i.e. Boyle v. Glassman and now this. I don’t like it as it interferes with all the efforts and contributions by dedicated people all around the world to make Crossfit “The Preferred Method of Training”!
Hopefully, this will all blow over and all parties come to their senses.
For the record, here is the first real public comment by Crossfit HQ on the subject of this blog post, made in the comments section of the Crossfit Journal piece “Understanding the Real Battle.”
Tony Budding:
“Jason Ashman (several posts here, but primarily 66) has said that CrossFit is now in the business of selling image. He and I have emailed privately on the matter, and there is no doubt that Jason is a true CrossFitter and has genuine intent on helping the community. He made a very long and well articulated case for why we need to be concerned about image and damage control and people’s feelings. And so, it is with complete respect that I disagree.
CrossFit is in the business of improving human performance in the real world. If you want to get fit, or help your clients get fit, there is little doubt left that constantly varied functional movements at high intensity combined with a moderate diet is the best way to do it.
This answer did not exist 10 years ago, certainly not in the format and availability that it does now. We all have Greg and Lauren Glassman to thank for that. Sure, barbells and gymnastics and interval training and the Zone and the Caveman diet all existed long before. But saying CrossFit is nothing new because of that is like saying a great meal or a great novel is nothing new because the same ingredients and words have been around forever.
Jason wrote me that this simplistic approach worked in the past, but we are now too big and too successful to ignore image, and this event has tarnished our image. I don’t believe this is true. The truth always comes out in the end, and the truth here is that we are fully committed to providing you with the most resources possible for you to become as fit as you want to be. We have created a community around the pursuit of fitness, and we remain as loyal to serving that community as we ever have been.
Jason says that part of serving that community is that we need to issue public statements about what happened at the BBS and why Robb got fired. I disagree. The way we serve the community is to provide a forum and culture where the open presentation and debate of effective fitness concepts can occur. This is what this video is about. It’s not spin. It’s who we are.
Why are we not talking about the BBS and Robb’s being replaced? Because they are not about the pursuit of effective fitness. They are about personalities, and such topics don’t belong on the CrossFit site. This is a divorce of sorts, and any of you that have been through divorce or had close friends go through a divorce know how painful it is. On a personal level, this whole thing has been very upsetting. For a long time, I thought Robb and Nicki were close friends. They came to my wedding last year (and the majority of attendees were friends and family unassociated with CrossFit). This is the second time our personal and professional relationship has gone south, and I honestly don’t understand exactly why.
But that’s all I’m going to say about that because it has nothing to do with CrossFit or our purpose here. Is this whole kerfuffle about fitness in any way? No. I guess there is some percentage of the population out there that thinks we fired Robb because he sells Paleo over the Zone. That’s ludicrous. He’s been a Paleo guy since long before he started touring the country with the CrossFit Nutrition certs. Do you think we didn’t know that before?
Those of you think what happened at the BBS caused us to fire Robb are mistaken. And, that’s all I’m going to say about that because it’s none of your business. Robb has been told why and that is all that is needed. He may not believe it, but that isn’t our problem.
For those of you feeling like the big bad powerful corporate CrossFit can and does arbitrarily destroy people’s lives, check your facts. Rip wasn’t fired. He left to do basically the same thing he did under the CrossFit banner now under his own. Rip has made great contributions to the world of fitness, and for that I’m grateful. Many of them of are presented in the CrossFit Journal and always will be.
Robb and Greg Everett and Dutch were not deaffiliated. They have not been blackballed or slandered or censored. Robb was removed from his role as the nutrition presenter. Period. We’re like a sports team. We changed a player on the team. It happens. You still have Robb if you want him. He has a blog that’s just as easy to find as CrossFit. I’m sure he’ll do seminars, and I hear he’s writing a book.
So, the bottom line is that I disagree with Jason. CrossFit HQ is about fitness and training, and the communities that treasure them. I am proud to be part of an amazing community that values hard work and the integrity of results more than image or political correctness. If it turns out that I’m naive and Jason is in fact correct, that my job as the Director of Media and Web Content is really more about spin, branding and damage control than fitness, then I’m in the wrong position.”
both robb and dave are big *****. Sorry had to be said , I learn of you and your site thru CFJ. robb u and ur website are top notch, yes i dont know all the facts etc.nor do i want to. get over it , set up meeting w/dave or glassman, close door what ever it takes. as cf become to big for it’s own good. globecrossfit. has there been a repeat winner at the crossfit games. NO. i believe each winner was on a different diet (life style). similiar but different. even if u urself went around teaching and reteaching trainers their will always be bad trainers … it’s life.. people will always eat crap food etc.
Tony’s comment on the thread at .com is ridiculous, disingenuous and/or naive. Robb and Greg’s experience provides important insights into the ripple effect of organizational abuse. One member who suffers unjust treatment from a leader is not simply a self-contained unit that can, if need be, be eliminated or replaced at will. Rather, the community consists of literally tens of thousands of connections. Harshness, injustice, and abuse distill both abrupt and subtle poisons into those connections, just as, for example, Gregg Glassman’s many acts of kindness to individuals have warmed and nourished and strengthened those connections with members who heard or read about the experiences, even if they had never met him. A member, even at a distance from a leader, naturally feels that he or she, too, might be treated in the same way.
And since HQ has espoused the virtues of the community as such a key part of advancing human performance, it is ludicrous to now claim that this event and your replacement have “nothing” to do with advancing human performance. When the CF community suffers, the advancement of human performance suffers. Vague analogies, no apologies, and smarmy videos from the same idiot who caused the problem just serve to weaken the community and thereby GREATLY diminish the ability of that community to advance human performance. Everybody with enough sense to lace up their shoes knows this. Tony and HQ should know this. That they haven’t acknowledged this and acted upon it speaks volumes.
Lee-
Coach Glassman had a statement on the affiliate blog, this was my response. Not sure if it will see the light of day over there:
I appreciate the statement, although tardy. A few clarifications are in order before putting this whole matter to rest.
1-The seminar I provided was 50% food quality, 50% weighing and measuring. I have nearly 50 complete certs worth of video to prove this point. The 2500+ attendees of the cert can validate this point. My contention has been that food quality is the most important issue. HQ disagrees on this point. I have thousands of data points on this topic that I have collected over the past 5 years. We will see those data sets in a formalized setting in the coming months. I have ALWAYS recommended (look back to the 2003 archives for example) starting with a paleo/quality approach first, then weigh and measure for best effect. What we have seen however are numerous examples of people abandoning Zone proportionality and lack of quality emphasis, and seeing dramatic improvements. Coach Glassman conveniently ignores this information. That’s no longer my concern as I am not a member of HQ and thus not obliged to attempt to fix its shortcomings.
I also apparently have a lack of clinical experience and scientific training! Remarkable. Apparently my CV was poorly circulated at HQ.
2-Coach Glassman is alluding that this is all a PR/marketing stunt to push Paleo Brands. That my insistence on food quality is something new. This is remarkable given my YEARS of consistent message on this topic. NewSpeak lives apparently. This also sounds remarkably similar to when CF NorCal left CrossFit several years ago in a protest of practices endemic to HQ. Our departure changed nothing (as evidenced by the Black Box Summit) but numerous people in CF were told we left to “Join Mark Twight and Gym Jones”. This is straight out of the same playbook.
3-It is ironic given Coach Glassman’s disdain for academia that MD’s and PHD’s mean “quality” or “competence”. An interesting and timely paradigm shift.
I want to make clear that my copyrighted material (the stuff not based on clinical or scientific experience) is NOT to be used at future CF Nutrition certs. It WAS used at the last event despite my communications that it is not to be used.
Off to practice Pseudo-Science and delude the masses…
Robb-
Saw the statement and aside from the insinuations about your motivations and credentials, thought it was rational and, at least, a plausible and legitimately articulated reason for a shift. The timing is suspect, obviously. Most importantly though, it does not address the main issue which is Dave’s behavior at BBS. His behavior, not necessarily deciding to remove you as the Nutrition guy (although since the two are so chronologically correlated, it is all suspect), is what needs to be addressed to heal the community. I’m fine if the Nutrition Cert goes a different direction. That just means i don’t have to fork over a grand if I want to hear your lecture. I’ll just buy your book. I’m not fine with Dave Castro as the Co-director of training. I feel that Coach (and Tony) are trying to make this about your replacement (which they apparently have “good” reasons for) and thereby obfuscate the real issue in all this, which has nothing to do with nutrition or O-lifting ideologies and everything to do with open-source-ness, civility of discourse, and Dave Castro’s unprofessional, scary behavior (for which there are no “good” reasons).
Robb,
Nope – your response won’t see the light of day – you knew that though. Control the variables. Couch did respond to you though:
“Let me share a difference between a bit of scientific fact and applied clinical knowledge.
Dr. Sears, when asked about sodium intake, offered that sodium retention was governed by aldosterone and that aldosterone was controlled in turn by insulin, which is ultimately controlled by carbohydrate intake.
I asked later who knew what to do if a client found herself very dizzy on standing days after being put “in the Zone”. Nobody knew. The answer is/was “get her to salt her food and see if it goes away”.
Same mechanism. One clinical knowledge the other not. We need a cert based on successful clinical experience.
Our old cert was sketchy on science, at best, and entirely bereft of clinical knowledge/experience.
It’s entirely my fault. We’re fixing it. ” – Couch
Interesting that the Sodium/aldosterone/insulin issue has been a feature of EVERY nutrition cert offered by me. I will post video on that as soon as I can que it up.
After reading Mr. Glassman’s posts on the CrossFit Affiliate page today I understand why things happened the way they did, and what is in store for CrossFit in the future. RW is not the problem. Paleo Brands is not the problem. TB and DC are not the problem. The problem is Greg Glassman’s character, and that will never change.
Bill-
He is a liar. This is why I left CF several years ago. this is the spin he is introducing now. they are not allowing me to post a response there so I will do it here.
I grabbed a handful of unmeasured almonds and an apple and read your post. Geez’ talk about a downer. Not you, Castro’s behaivor, very unprofessional.
There’s a reason this happened. I’m grateful you are working on your book, the sooner it gets published the sooner I can purchase and give to friends/family as gifts. What I got from your nutrition cert. was priceless. Thank you!
Michele
Robb,
Now that Lisbeth has closed the comments on the Affiliate blog, I just want you to know that my response to her “haha we don’t moderate” nonsense was that evidently, since my copy-paste of your reply taken from your blog went through no questions asked while your own post was blocked for several hours, it is not the CONTENT of your post that got caught in the filter, but your NAME (or email address, IP, website). Same for Greg Everett.
Congratulations, you and Greg are officially personae non gratae on the CF Affiliate blog. I don’t know if you should be sad or proud.
Best of luck,
Third party observer
Testing-
I appreciate your efforts. I had another response regarding the IP infringement. Bobbi Milsaps presented portions of my material at the event. I clearly communicated with HQ/Legal that my material was not to be used. I know it was an honest mistake but it illustrates Glassman has no idea what his staff is doing.
A catalyst, something that causes a massive ripple. The BBS and Dave’s actions were the catalyst. Sometime ago someone asked why the affiliates hadn’t piped in and now I will for what its worth.
This isn’t about Paleo or Zone, it really isn’t; though thats the face being presented.
This is about Greg Glassman, its like we want to blame the organization (HQ) not the man but this is what its about.
When I came to CrossFit I invested $40,000.00 to get my gym up and to pour my heart into it. I have wanted this most of my life and CrossFit was a vehicle. I bought into a brand but never really became a Koolaid drinker. This very quickly set me apart. I have t-shirts in the name of my gym, business cards, signs, a several thousand dollar website, I have invested my time and life and created a following, not of CrossFit but at my gym.
I expressed, much like Rob did, my disatisfaction, except about the brand and what followed was a verbal ass reaming from a man I respected.
The man behind the curtain has his faults as we all do but what people see on the surface and what lies beneath are simply two different people. This is simply what people are pointing out. What they thought they believed and what is….simply aren’t matching up.
This situation was a catalyst for me…I chose to no longer affiliate with nor spread the name of CrossFit. Before anyone especially the Koolaid drinkers jump in my ass about what CrossFit has done for me, well it was nothing, their brand name here means nothing, most have never heard of it, I put a ton of money into it, I wake up everyday and go sale it on the street, I advertise, I bust my ass, I have never got visits from the affiliate directors or asked how my business is going and yet HQ’s business spreads and grows. How many affiliates are millionaires? Out of 1500 or so how many, how about the Glassmans? So, in essence I own nothing. I am not sorry if this pisses people off but the over the rainbow crap has finally filled my cup.
CrossFit didn’t change your life, your coach did, or if you found workouts online thank the man that put it on there, but the lifting that you are doing is age old and the concepts age old, not a new novel or new idea just newly packaged.
What am I giving up by giving up the name is the money I invested, the time I put in, basically I have to start over but as scary as that seems to me, I won’t spend another day if can help it pushing the name that benefits the man.
Will-
We did it before, likely will do it again. You can do it. It DOES suck though because the whole thing could be REALLY good.
I agree Robb, 100% and that is what pisses me off…but the die is cast, now I am going to be calling Nickki and y’all for some guidance…lol
Dude, this Rick guy is a dumbass. His comment about T-nation, epic. Dows he realize that doublecrossfit is hiring t-nation contributors? You have gone full retard Rick, ain’t no coming back.
I know this issue with Dave Castro and some others is a bit ago, but it’s still relevant to me.
I’ve recently had a discouraging interaction with Dave and some other Crossfit leadership. I gotta get to work, and maybe I’ll write more later, but the gist of this is it seems the Crossfit people actually believe that their expertise in fitness has some sort of larger import. They’ve taken some success in FITNESS PROGRAMMING into areas where they have ZERO expertise. Sure, Crossfit’s an effective protocol, but developing it doesn’t make you good at anything else! Not at planning events, not at measuring performance, not at understanding specialization, nor nutrition, nor recovery, nor injury prevention, not accounting, not photography, not flying airplanes.
It seems a lot of the Crossfit leadership have become reactionary know-it-alls who are turning lots and lots of people off. I know I’ve been turned off.
Expertise is a funny thing. Most experts readily acknowledge their weaknesses outside of the subject matter and they are ENERGETIC in pursuit of learning to reduce their weaknesses. The Crossfit folks seems to be creating their own form of expertise, where core knowledge in one specific thing suddenly gives license to a whole host of others.
In my interactions with them, some of the Crossfit people, Dave included, came off as officious and narrow-minded. I can’t put it better or more politely than that, and I won’t try.
Robb, I’m sorry for your experience. I certainly know where it’s come from, and for the Crossfit leadership it’s not a good omen.
DF-
I really appreciate that. Sounds like you have some interesting insight indeed.
We ahve been blessed with a business mentor who is one of our clients. Great guy, sold his internet based business for $83 Million at the age of 28…very successful and the first to admit he has nothing but opinion with regards to each new project. He left Nicki and I with a doosey the other day: What got you where you are will NOT get you where you are going. learn, grow, adapt and shoot for humility and joy in what you are doing. CF is so full of talent, I really hope they get a handle on the arrogance…it will be their undoing otherwise.
I am with you Robb. It seems like things went off the rails because you were sticking to your guns and going with what you think is right, and I respect you for that. I have been following your blog for the last few weeks and I have learned some really good things, and I look forward to your book. In the past I kept hearing about how great Robb Wolf was and now I understand why. Your podcasts are great with the no fuss no muss manor that your treat questions and topics and have the knowledge to back it. I have been with Crossfit for the last two years but now I am leaning away from it and I have been doing OTP’s programming and I really like it, so it may be good bye to Crossfit for me.
Trevor-
Thanks for the kind words. Just trying to help folks!
OPT’s programming is SICK. Great stuff.
told yall niggas crossfit was dumb … they should shut up and do their own thing
Fird-
Thanks for that insight.
Mr. Robb Wolf,
It’s amazing to read this. As shocked as I thought I would be to read what had happened at this seminar, to tell you the truth, I’m not the least bit supprised. For some weird reason I had these thoughts and feelings all along, call it whatever you want, about the people mentioned above. Looks like this was a seminar to let their light shine the brightest. Once I saw Dave “loose cannon” Castro making ground and calling shots things would start going south. The search for honest to goodness fitness is gone and is replaced by it’s evil twin marketing. Sure you have to sale your product but it really should speak for itself, and clearly it doesn’t when you watch videos posted of all top athletes doing someone elses programming. It’s funny that crossfit would post something to their own demise. But in rebuttle the “loose cannon” in his most recent video states that programming is programming and the movements are what make crossfit work, it doesn’t matter who is doing the programming. Really? It’s videos like this that make me wonder what is the underlying factor that they are trying to cover up? I’m glad I haven’t been too invested in crossfit yet and put off going to a cert this long. I feel liberated and thankful that you would post with detail the events that occured that us “just follow the main site guys” need to know about. I don’t involve myself with gossip, but when the world class coaches are jumping ship, just like the seeing the bombsquad running, maybe it’s time to follow.
Cory-
I think what they are trying to hide is a remarkable ability to chase away talent. They will NOT tolerate outside input, not till they figure out a way to re-package it and call it their own. their loss.
Rob,
Sorry to dredge this tired old saw up.
I’d heard about this blow up last year but I had a baby on the way and didn’t care that much.
I met you at a level 1 cert in SD in ’08 and enjoyed my brief conversation with you.
Since then I have run a club out of my garage gym. I feel that I am successful in that my peeps are uninjured and continue to set PR’s. This based on CF methodology.
Yet I am increasingly uncomfortable with CF and have not used MP WOD in over a year, for myself or my peeps. Although a relatively inexperienced coach, I can better program to my folks’ weaknesses’ and strengths’ than someone who has never seen, met or watched them. I am also increasingly concerned with the lack of periodization in the CFMP programming.
As I learn more, I continue to take inputs from other sources: Pavel, Everett, Daniels, etc. As I take these inputs I become painfully aware of my own deficiencies and weak-points as a coach.
Keep up the good work. I’ll buy the book.
Thanks Steve, agreed on all counts and congrats on your new little one.
What an amazing story. I’ve had my dealings with CrossFit persons as well – seen some incredibly sloppy coaching outcomes as ridiculous form and training injuries. It falls into my category of “iatrogenic” training.
In sociological terms, we seem to be looking at an autodidactic leadership of a closed institution: hence, it can do no wrong since it is all knowing with an evidential basis of “I said so.” However, you offer a clue with the Zone Diet: follow the money trail! In that regard, to the extent CrossFit has a philosophy it would be called “a commercial theory of exercise.”
With more than 50 years of training experience and a comprehension of centuries of physical culture, I simply cannot recall a movement other than this that bears many of the features of a cult, replete with cult mind control. Big ones of the past – for example, Bernarr MacFadden – prospered by disseminating Open Source principles, putting emphasis on fitness education empowering autonomy of training.
Good work, Robb!
Ken
Thanks Ken! I’m really looking forward to hanging out at some point, you know your stuff!
Hi Rob. Remarkable story!
Any chance those video recordings will see the light? It would be hilarious to see Dave “lovehandle” Castro loose it on film 🙂
keep up the good work
Tobias
Not until the CrossFit Central/SicFit folks decide to split the scene. They should have been released immediately.
Great writ-up Robb; I have often wondered what happened at the BB summit. I have not read any of the above comments, nor do I plan to.
In my training and coming to CrossFit I have seen Robb talk a couple times. When I first started paying attention to my diet I was zoning but I was zoning on what I would call processed food. This is where the quote “you CANNOT weigh and measure shit food and get the same results” comes into play. Since going paleo I have seen much better results than when I was zoning with processed food. I recently hurt my back on a fall while rock climbing and have not been able to hit a WOD in over a month. I have stayed paleo and although my muscle density has depleted quite a bit, I really have seen no visible fat or rounding more than what was there beforehand. Better fuel will always lead to better performance.
“I told him to take my high-paying nutrition gig and stick it up his ass.” Never drop yourself to their level Robb. Although this comment was justified from what I have heard from your side of the story, dropping to Castro’s level is never the answer.
“Of the panel, NOT ONE PERSON thought the crossfit.com WOD would get a person to optimal strength/conditioning levels the fastest.” Although I am no where near where my potential should be – YET – I think the http://www.crossfit.com WODs are a great place for folks to start, but if you plan on competing, it will not prepare you for the 3 – 10 movements a day you will need to perform for the games.
Open Source is surely the way to go. This is a community and I am happy to be a part of it and excited to see where it goes. Thank you for your contributions Robb and I look forward to attending one of your seminars if you ever bring them to SoCal again.
Wow, this is eye-opening stuff. During my approx 4 mths as a CrossFitter I have heard muted whispers at my box about the ‘politics’ of CrossFit, but I never really understood what was meant by it until now.
Recently I noticed stuff on the CrossFit Journal about Zone diet. Every since I learned of the fact that CrossFit supported the Zone theory I just hated the idea. My prejudice was not based on any research or real understanding, I just simply could not see how CrossFit could put its weight behind a dietary program that did not have food quality as its primary focus. It just seemed to run completely at odds with what I understand about CrossFit philosphy.
If I had read this article earlier, I would not have bothered posting those comments.
If a dispute ever arose between our affiliate and HQ, I honestly believe the community at our box would stand 100% behind our trainers. One thing about a good CrossFit affiliate, it’s the quality of the training methods and the atmostphere created by the trainers what brings about the expansion and keeps people coming back. It’s not the CrossFit brand that does it, and there is nothing Dave Castro can do about that!
Gary-
You are spot on with that. The “community” of crossfit has little in common with HQ. Not dissimilar from our situation with government.
So THAT’S why it’s been so hard for me to get a good explanation of why many Crossfit folks formerly recommended Zone but now recommend Paleo.
I began my CrossFit experience here in Queens, NY back in February and in our foundations program, they recommended either trying Zone or Paleo. They didn’t try to hard sell us on either one, so I decided to start with Zone. I read Entering the Zone and Mastering the Zone and enjoyed reading both books. Although it’s not perfect, it does put an emphasis on favorable vs. unfavorable foods, so it got me started in the right direction.
Once I finally switched to Paleo when our box started a 6-week Paleo Challenge (which I’ve been blogging about at my site), I immediately started noticing results both in weight-loss and performance gain during the WODs.
I’ve been trying to figure out why there’s been so much confusion about the Zone and Paleo in Crossfit and this sheds a lot of light. Thanks so much for sharing!
O, and I’ve met tons of people who tried Zone but ultimately found success in Paleo. I’ve never met someone who switched from Paleo to Zone.
i just signed up to say gigantic thread is gigantic and that i also support robb and his position
Thanks man!
Holy cow! My eyes are bleeding from reading this thread! Lol…Anyway, very interesting.
I came across this thread by accident but now I’m curious and forgive me for seeming so ignorant, but what’s the difference between the zone and paleo?
From what I can gather, the zone promotes healthy food choices where you weigh and measure, but Paleo recommends the same thing without the weighing and measuring.
Like I said, forgive my ignorance, but what am I missing?
Thanks
Joey- that is kinda the distinction, but it turned into a bunch of political bullshit with Glassman trying to control the “truth.” The Zone macro recommendations are way, way off.
Ah ok. Thanks for the response Robb. I have been listening to your podcasts since day 1 and have learn alot from them. I read your book when it first came out so it’s been a while and I’m sure I’ve forgotten some stuff (I’m not a biochemist:))Is there a location on this site where I can figure out my macronutrient requirements?
I find that when i eat a diet that is high in protein and fat and low in carbs (low because the carbs are from vegetables only), that my energy suffers until I “cheat” and load up on carbs again. However, it takes a day or 2 for those carbs to fully inflate/reach my muscles.
Read the quick start guide amigo. Free down load.
Robb,
Very enlightening, thank you. I’m new to all of Paleo, CF and you so I’m trying to keep an open mind here.
That said, I’ve been looking for a CF club in my area to give it a shot and frankly have NOT been impressed by the “customer service” I’ve encountered, especially for a newbie. With maybe one exception out of 5 I’ve looked at so far, it seems the business model was designed primarily to keep martial arts clubs financially solvent, at least in my area.
Reading your post basically brought it all together for me.. What you describe dove-tails w/ my experiences in a general sense so it appears to me to be coming from the top of the organization. There seems to be a heck of a lot of arrogance even at the ‘small box’ level in my opinion. From what little I’ve seen so far, I’m getting the feeling that CF will be nothing more than a bygone “fad” in the general fitness market if these things you speak about don’t change.
I just listened to POD 91 and what you and Greg say about CFHQ WOD’s really hit home.. I’ve had a PL total of over 1600 (raw) at 195 lbs, played college football in a speed position, and as of a month ago was still capable of a 1150 CF total and 355 bench at the age of 47 and 172 lbs. I mention the stats only to – hopefully – amplify my opinion that the CFHQ WOD’s would bury me within a month; definitely not for the average consumer or even those with a decent level of base fitness.
And you are 100% correct in POD 91, they are missing a huge opportunity in all of mind-share, market-share, bucks and last but not certainly not least, actually helping people. A great example of them missing the boat would be my wife who would absolutely LOVE the community and instructor led group format of CF, but there is no way I could recommend that she try it based on her health history, etc. even though I think a weight-bearing orientated fitness program would help her tremendously. So, basically out of 2 potential customers CF has lost them both, and that was pretty much my conclusion before I even saw your post here..
However, I’ve been very impressed by your open-mindedness and style and the POD casts are priceless for both the entertainment value and the information they convey. Thank you. For sure I’m in your camp on this one and please keep doing all that you do.
Speaking as a newbie to all of this, may I offer this up: As hard as it may be, and as much as I enjoy your passion in all that you do, leave your personal feelings and history out of why you would not recommend CF – just stick to the facts. I think in the long run that would only strengthen your argument about why CF is not ideal, especially for beginners.
– Dave
Thanks Dave. yea, the culture of arrogance come from the top. It’s the type of thing you see in 3rd world despots. Now the company is going to the moon…awesome. It could be very different, and that much bigger and doing more good…but don’t tell despots whoa re making mad money they could be doing things better!
Robb, you are by far one of the smartest guys out there.
Paleo rules. Counting calories may be good in certain situations, but
that 40/30/30 split is just COMPLETE BULLSHIT!! Oh man, all thoses brainwashed idiots…
Keep opening peoples eyes Robb!
Best wishes from Austria
Rob, we’ve never met, but guys from CrossFit Rockland in NY have, and they couldn’t say nicer things about you. My hope is to attend one of your seminars, some day. I have your book and have become so intrigued about everything paleo. That said, sorry for being a late-comer to this issue. But, just today, I pulled up a video of a throw-down between AgainsFaster and Rogue, and in that video Dave Castro provides the event programming. As I was watching the video, I noticed an air about the guy – something I couldn’t put my finger on, but didn’t sit right, generally. Actually, I didn’t even know the guy in the video was Dave Castro, until his name appeared on screen; I subsequently googled him and ultimately came across your blog. I knew there was something about this guy – to the point where I question the spirit behind CF in general, with him being a part of the organization. Maybe this is just my gut reaction; and I know the affiliates I’ve visited are full of great people. But it was just a let down to read about someone in Castro’s position acting in the manner described.
Anyway, thank you for what you do! Love your podcasts, by the way.
I think the CrossFit community has grown so far beyond what it was originally, I don’t think CFHQ can stop it, much less control it much longer. The community is constantly tweaking itself to become a better program. I only recently started at a non-affiliate gym.
1) I was recommended Paleo (which btw works)
2) Form was crucially important and took precedence to anything else
3) Nobody starts without an on-ramp style system.
My coach would stop my workout if my form began to lack. Perhaps this is due in part to it being a small town gym. Regardless, CrossFit is growing into something bigger and better than it ever started out to be and I am glad to be a part. The politics of HQ are unfortunate, but if you can find a gym worth their salt; it won’t matter.
Wow, know its late to the game, and read a lot of the 650 + comments, but how can any business allow that to happen? It’s amazing to me a top end employee can get away with so much.
I started CF 3 years ago and It was interesting to see the different boxes I went to go from talking exclusively about zone. Then a zone/paleo mix, and now almost all paleo over that time. To think it started off like this is just stupid and sad.
In those 3 years I have found usually only 1 or two good knowledgable trainers that really focus on form. I am a massage therapist for 10yrs and always hated globo gyms because I almost always new more than my trainers and then got a few good CF ones that opened my eyes, but they ended up moving. I’ve gone thru more people that dont focus on form, and I cringe everytime I see someone try to an plus lift with bad form. Thinking to myself I would be infinitely better than some of these people.
It’s taken me 3 yrs to even get close to doing snatches with heavy weight, into a good squat, and still can’t do muscle up or squat cleans because I’ve had to piece together training from all my coaches over the years. I still have issues my coaches can’t seem to fix as well. These should have been standardized and a longer better training for the $1 k you have to spend for lvl1. Plus better assessment and fixing of peoples issues since most going into CF now especially because of the games have issues that need solved and shored up before doing general wods.
Thx for the great reads Robb, your book on paleo has helped me alot and continue to help me grow. If you know of any good problem fixes for form in seattleish
My phone posted before done..wanted to add
Fixers not fixes and seattleish area. Would be appreciated! Keep up the good work!
Gordon
From watching CF videos, Dave Castro always seemed liked the biggest douche bag. But no I have proof.
Robb:
I apologize for typos and mispellings. I get typing fast and forget to proof.
Look forward to your comment.
Regards,
Tom
Hey Rob. I’ve been Crossfitting for a very short time (a year or so) and I only know Dave Castro from youtube. lol.
I won’t comment on the fact that he might’ve been rude or what happened at that seminar. I come from a martial arts background, a 3rd degree black belt from ATA and a level 3 certification. If people are polite, educated and LEAD BY EXAMPLE nothing like this would’ve happened. Anyway…
I think that the biggest point I can give you is that the .com site sucks. It prepares your for nothing, and it’s totally random (yes .com is random). The best thing you said is: check your affiliates, see if the instructors have prior knowledge on fitness, their backgrounds, and what kind of certifications they have on Crossfit. Crossfit Mayhem or CrossfitRx are good boxes, they take their time to program wods carefully and with progression. This is not taught on level 1 cert because any one can do them, or at a Coaches Prep Course can anyone with level 1 can do them. Progression is taught in schools, college, etc. Thank your for the enlightenment.
All the way from Portugal.
Hey Robb…cry me a river.
@Jonathan Jones,
You better not be from San Antonio…..
5 fries!!!
Great post Robb. So, do you still support Crossfit after all this?
I wanna see this video of Castro acting like a kid!!!
How does this not get around more? I have been doing crossfit for 4 years and never came across this article. I would take your teachings over Crossfit anyday Robb. Keep up the great work!
This was many years back, but if you mentioned “black box summit” in the comments on the HQ site, it was censored. I believe “Mark Twight” and “Gym Jones” were also censored as well. I’m here today to show this to all the people upset about Castro’s firing while I rejoice.
still one of my fav stories about the dick ability of dave castro
Mr.Robb
Thanks for sharing this story