Well…today is the first day back in the gym training folks in almost 2 weeks.
We took the past 11 days off due to the holidays and upwards of 50% of my time off was spent sleeping! Left to my own devices I will sleep for 9hrs per night and I think that creeps up closer to 10hrs during the winter, especially if I am training hard.
Our normal schedule however allows for 7-8hrs of sleep most nights and the mere knowledge that I have an alarm set for 5 or 6 am the following day is enough to make that already too-short-sleep lower quality. This leads to a chronic sleep debt that I realize after some time off, really decreases my quality of life, productivity, happiness and health.
Over the past 11 days I naturally followed an intermittent fasting schedule of 16-20 hrs and I felt GREAT. My training was solid, digestion good, mental outlook fantastic. On my normal sleep deprived schedule intermittent fasting tends to make me feel like ass. I drop it in on the weekends a bit but as I get more and more tired the duration of fasting I can TOLERATE tends to get shorter. The key point there is tolerate…once I am sleep deprived I’m not so sure that fasting is helping all that much if at all, whereas if I am rested I have no doubts that the episodic periods of fasting improve my health and well-being.
Another key to being able to do some Intermittent Fasting or Time Restricted Feeding is making sure that I’m an ON POINT with my electrolytes. Click here if you want some more information on electrolytes and fasting…
If you are familiar with the book Lights Out! Sleep, Sugar and Survival you will likely understand the importance of not only adequate sleep but also periods of fasting (ketosis) and living in a accordance with our genetics if you want to avoid fun stuff like premature aging, cancer and insulin resistance. Some people like Lights Out, others hate it but the information Wiley and Formby presented continues to be validated and occasionally implemented. A quick google search of Sleep+ Cancer yields some interesting finds. Recently shift work was added to the list of “probable cancer causes” along side smoking, car exhaust and UV radiation.
Perhaps I’m naive, but I find it interesting that some of the most potent anti-cancer “interventions” known include sleep, ketosis, intermittent fasting and…happiness. I find it interesting because this seems to be our default mode. Loads of sleep, episodes of ketosis and fasting among an extended network of friends and family. Now I’m NOT saying our ancestors had a perfect paradise and I don’t want to overly romanticize what was obviously a hard and dangerous way to live, but if we can take the best elements of our understanding of evolutionary medicine and graft that onto our 21st century technology we have some amazing potential. The most important element of this understanding may involve retro-engineering disease. Pick a disease, figure out what lifestyle elements may be at odds with our genetics, then fix it! This could be an amazingly powerful tool, but it does have heavy implications for how we live our modern lives.
So back to sleep and intermittent fasting. A great question is “how do I implement intermittent fasting?” to which I would respond: Implement it to the degree it makes you feel better and improves your life. Two things you MUST do: remove refined carbs from your diet AND get adequate sleep. If you let one slide you really need to tighten up the other. I’ve thought about which one to prioritize but this is a bit like asking if you want your heart or lungs to work. Screw one or the other up and you will have very serious problems.
Once you have food and sleep dialed, get your stress under control. Find ways to minimize bull-shit in your life.
Get some exercise. Do CrossFit, swing a Kettle bell, take a walk. Do some yoga if you want to, just don’t turn into a hippy.
Got all that fixed? NOW you might think about dropping in a few days of intermittent fasting. You want your stressors to be pulsatile and FAVORABLE as a whole. Dropping intermittent fasting onto a sleep-deprived-bad-diet-life willed with conflict is not a good idea!
I’m going to go take a nap before my next client gets here.
While I know what you are writing to be true and wish improved lifts etc, I just cant seem to implement the sleep thing! It’s the last piece of the puzzle for me…. Suggestions??
Sarena-
Where is the sleep breaking down? This is a tough thing…most people work a “8” hour day which turns into 10 with commute lunch and other crap. If we sleep 8-10 hrs that is 18-20 of a 24 hr day. Have kids? Wan’a eat dinner? Enjoy a modicum of a social life? Not much time left for that.
Best estimates put the economics of hunter-gatherer life at ~15 hrs/week to provide for food, clothing, shelter. This was made up of hard work but if this is accurate we are wired to WORK about 1/2-1/3 what we normally do. We might be wired for much more leisure time, contemplation and fun. Think about most people and what an improved life they would have if they worked 3-5 hrs/day or only a few long days…lots less burn-out, better creativity. The Four Hour Work Week is an interesting book and concept in that most people piss away most of their time at work LOOKING busy…Sorry, kinda getting off track here! My point is that this is tough, modern life does not lend itself well to taking care of ourselves. Work to chisel out what time you can, make your sleep a top priority, keep your room dark and cool. Let me know if this helps!
“..don’t turn into a hippy…”
Dude, I resemble that remark! And it’s “hippie,” not “hippy.”
I’m proud to call myself one, and I’m also proud to be into interval training, EF, Intermittent Fasting, good meat, and lifting.
It takes all kinds…:)
Great blog, and good post about sleep. Before I smartened up my training and eating, I was sleeping only 6-7 hours a night. I couldn’t sleep more than that.
Now with the better training and IF, I’m finding the same thing you are. I’m sleeping longer and better, and everything is working better–better body composition, strength, etc..
I wonder what the correlation or causality is, if there is one. I’ve never slept this much, but I’ve never felt this good, either, or been this fit.
Another piece of the puzzle, huh?
Charles-
I knew someone would bust me on my hippie mispelling…damn you!
Sleeping “enough” improves insulin sensitivity, increases hGH levels, decreases cortisol (this increases testosterone as there is competition for upstream substrates that cascade into either testosterone or cortisol) decreases inflammation…It is freaky what sleep DOES and pretty scary what a lack of sleep will do.
You may change my mind on hippies yet!
Robb
Really good post! Sending to my friends…
Strazz-
You will scare them with this stuff!
Robb
Actually I did starting working this year with more regularity as a two day a week job! But this was with kids as a phys ed teacher/special ed! Anyway, I sent in a letter of resignation today! I am not suited for that at this point in my life–maybe when I was 25, although it was something I always wanted to do! Let’s see if the sleep improves with the reduced stress (oh and if the mysterious injuries start to heal too)!
Did you get my letter? Also the cold with the IF is getting way uncomfortable….
Sounds good! If you need to cut the IF short to keep from freezing, go for it. With more sleep however it may be less of an issue.
Robb
I think the stress thing is really important and something we all need to get sorted out. I had a couple of posts about this earlier in the year
http://conditioningresearch.blogspot.com/2007/10/stresstoo-muchthe-wrong-kind.html
http://conditioningresearch.blogspot.com/2007/09/dont-get-stressed-out-by-it-all.html
Basically there is increasing evidence that chronic ongoing stress is not what we were designed for. When we get stressed like this the HPA axis (hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis) pumps out the stress hormones that have all sorts of nasty effects on different tissues.
Thanks Chris! Awesome stuff as always!
Robb
Dr Biffa had a good post on this just now as well:
http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/01/02/my-new-year-resolution-recommendation-get-some-sleep/
Great post Robb. Hit the nail on the head. Reminds me of teaching all about the sympathetic and parasympathetic (aka fight or flight) response. Excess stress/cortisol without proper recovery is a muscle killer. Combine that with high activity load or IF and results could be negative. Trying myself to force periods of slow down, and I do notice more work done in the times I do concentrate. Makes me wonder how many people put so much effort into exercise and eating and then get little results because of lack of recovery and excess muscle breakdown from cortisol. Funny my best gains are when I work out little but rest a ton.
Mike-
It’s interesting but Nicki has a pretty good natural instinct for this. She pushes hard on the days she trains but does not get neurotic (like me) about consistency. Her progress is consistent and seems to always be “up”. Something to be learned here for sure.
Robb
Interesting! I had never heard that testosterone and cortisol were in the same pathway. That could explain a lot. Do you have a reference?
Just look under testosterone, Pregnenalone, cortisol metabolism.
I found a good article here
http://www.trifuel.com/triathlon/nutrition/what-is-cortisol-000667.php
But it also contained this:
Thoughts?
Well…I think there is a trade off here. Occasionally that stress response MAY be good. If one is working to keep the volume of a competitive athlete this whole protocol of higher carb intake may be necessary. OR perhaps if we looked at a more fat adapted athlete we would not see the immune response and cortisol release due to elevated ketones. I’m not sure on this honestly but I think there are some deviations with regards to health and performance goals. The thing that gets me with some of this research is we are living in terror of a moment in negative nitrogen balance or a spike in coritsol. I think there are some compelling reasons to go to these places occasionally. Paul Kayley may actually have some thoughts on this…
Robb
Robb,
I’m a newbie to your site. Having completed a number of marathons and a few triathlons after losing 90 lbs. I’ve learned a few things about my personal physio: I need carbs to train or I cramp and bonk after 2 hours at 80%+ of HRmax (regardless of sodium intake) and I have trouble dropping bodyfat when consuming carbs. I do have a penchant for refined carbs at times. So, my issue is compromised training/competition when dropping carbs OR higher bodyfat composition. Have you noticed this in your travels?
Vince
Vince-
I think the carb level can be somewhat dependent on fat adaptation and training intensity. Brian Mackenzie of crossfit newport beach is a Jedi master on this endurance stuff and he gets most of his carbs from VEGGIES. he eats a very fat heavy diet but does drop more carb dense items, like cheese cake, into his ultra long efforts. Bottom line is tinker and find what works bot I have yet to see someone not benefit from a shift towards a more fat based metabolism.
The no-carbs-after-workout was brought up in an Art Devaney audio interview, and he claimed the same blunting of growth hormone response. I’ve tried going without any replenishment after workouts (except for water) recently, but can’t really tell the difference. I think it may be at a level I can’t really measure or perceive.
Vince, i’ve had success with endurance athletes who are petient enough in the off season to change their training whilst changing their bodies ability to accept the right carbs…from what i have found, most endurance recreational athletes have such high circulating cortisol due to life and hours of running/biking/running…that this has to be “managed” first before major macro changes for recovery/adaptation…etc…
i usually teach them benefits of anaerobic training/weightlifting etc in the off season and keep their corisol levels (as tesed by salivary 4 point) under control…as well as life/food changes..this allows them when they get back into volume work (reigns more than whips)..they tend to do better with fat being a better fuel source and denser carbs from veggies and almost no grains – success seen in IM, ultras, 1/2 IM’s and adventure racing..hope that gives some insight or more confusion to the pictre
Hey Robb,
I am interested in trying intermittent fasting, but I am still unclear as to how often one should fast. Should I fast once a week, once a month, or determine the frequency of my fasting some other way?
Ben-
Start with 1-2 days per week, make the fast 12-15 hrs initially. See how you feel. Track down the articles I wrote on this, and the Performance Menu thread dealing with this…sooooo much good info there!
Keep me posted on your progress and remember, I recommend a Paleo/zone diet PRIOR to the IF! Get the foundation dialed, then get “funky with the cheeze whizz”.
Hey Robb,
I’ve been IF’ing for a little over a month now, and I guess I need to decide if I should continue or not.
I am 22, 6’1″, 165-170lbs, and have been unsuccessfully trying to lean all the way out (lose infuriating love handles). I CF, run, swim, play sports, daily calisthenics, sleep 8 hours a day, and eat meat, veggies, fruit,nuts, olive oil and dairy.
I’ve been doing a 1pm-7pm eating window M-F. I kept track on fitday for a while and averaged 2700-3000 calories a day. I haven’t noticed any performance loses, but I haven’t lost any weight either. I was really, really hoping to avoid crawling back to the zone and measuring every almond and oz. of chicken.
Do I simply just need to eat less? Or cut out the dairy? Or eat less fruit and more veggies? Or lessen the carbs altogether?
I’m really about to lose it. I even broke down today and ate a bowl of pasta for the first time in a long while. I guess I am just desperate to see some results and need some direction.
Mike-
Hmmm…Love handles make me think insulin/cortisol…even if it is just a little bit. Try dropping the IF and you said you are getting 8hrs of sleep? IS it in complete darkness? Can you sneak in another hour? Half hour?
I’ve noticed something: If I’m eating base paleo and SLEEPING there seems to be nearly no level of food, even from fruit, that I do not stay really lean on. Start cutting my sleep…and it immediately layers onto the love handles. Not much, but some. The only time I am REALLY lean is when my sleep is dialed. No alarm clock, dark room. I had a month of that a while back and it almost made me cry to get back into the 6am class to teach…immediate fat gain AND drop in performance. You could try simply adding a little less fat via nuts and olive oil…but I think you will find it is the sleep.
Keep me posted.
Rob,
I am a new graduate from nursing school and I have decided to get some of the poor stress filled habbits of junk food and snacking nipped in the but. I like to be fasted during the day most time and I feel so much energy when I am and have one meal in the evenings.
I am hitting a road block and I was hoping for some advice. I am a new nurse and I have been offered a job that is a great learning experience. Now I do not plan working nights for the long haul but for this job and as a new nursing graduate in San Diego it is the only option I have received.
I only plan on doing this for a year and then taking the experience I have gained and moving on/demanding day shift.
However do you have any ideas on how to incorporate one meal a day/IF when I will be working 3 twelve hour night shifts from 7pm to 7am?
Sincerely,
Autumn
Ohhh girlie…I WOULD NOT do intermittent fasting with that schedule. Eat as consistently as you can, keep it low carb for the most part, set up a room that is pitch black and do your best to sleep when you get a chance. You do not need additional stress on that schedule!
Keep me posted.
Robb, I was curious to know what you think of the “Warrior Diet”. Aside from the name, I think that it is full of good stuff. I know that it advocates eating primarily UN-refined carbs during the day w/ little bursts of protein here and there. The day concludes w/ a meal as large as you need it to be. No restrictions, just use your brain as to what to eat. Any comments?
Paul-
I like the WD a bunch. Really good info and way ahead of its time BUT here are a few things i’d tweak:
1-Ori completely misses the Grain issue. he is focussing on the “Ancient Roman Legions” and missed the other 99.998% of history and the “warriors” that ate no grains and were far healthier.
2-Ori focuses on “lite” eating during the day. I think with what we know now the best stress adaptations are found with NO eating.
3-One large meal may not cut it. A compressed feeding window with several medium sized meals allows for more cals while still eliciting the adaptations we are looking for.
I heard there was a re-do coming out sometime soon…I suspect it will look very much like what I’ve out lined here. Good book and info.
Robb,
Great stuff. I think the key point for me is this “to which I would respond: Implement it to the degree it makes you feel better and improves your life”
I IF and I eat as paleo as I can. I also do shift work in an ER when I’m not Training at Potomac Crossfit. Shift work is a killer. As I type this I’m on my thrid 12 hour shift.
What I do to keep healthy outside of CF.
Keep my diet tight on days I’m not at the ER.
Keep it as tight as I can while at the ER without stressing myself out about it.
Days that I’m off or training at the box, I take naps. If I’m sleepy during the day I just go to bed. Which means I have to cut the BS stuff and do only what’s important.
The other day I attempted a fast at work. It only lasted about 13 hours which breaks down to 7 hours while sleeping and six hours awake. It was causing me stress so I just bagged it and ate. No worries.
Sleep for me is key I can eat paleo and IF but neither work well if I’m not sleeping.
I will get home from work and go to bed with-in 30mins. Or when I get home from the box in the AM and go right back to bed even if it’s only for an hour.
My days all of them start at 4:30am after 20 some years of this I can’t “sleep in” so it’s just back to bed in my nice dark room.
With all of this the greatest thing I’ve learned is that it can’t be all or nothing. “IF” when you can, don’t let it stress you. Eat as “clean” as you can as much as you can…if you can’t don’t be a freak have fun. Sleep as much as you can, all the shit you think you have to do will be there when you wake up.
jen
Jen-
I want to pull this out into a front page post…this is something everyone needs to read. Good-on-you for “doing the best you can”.
Another excellent post! I have a few questions. Ive been CF’ing hardcore for 4 months now and have experienced superior results. I am someone who has succeeded with a ketogenic diet, and am setting pr’s every week. I have brought my bf% down from around 22% to approx. 15% while maintaining a weight of around 195lbs(I am 6′). I just added starting strength to my regime, and have converted my eating to paleo/IF (still ketogenic). My goal is lean down to single digit bf, while increasing strength and mass (so far so good). But I have noticed my midsection has been particularly stubborn. So my question is about the % of protein and fat intake. (I am relatively stress free, and my sleep is great 8 hrs strict, but I feel groggy if i sleep any more than that). I am currently eating approx ~142g of protein daily (which is a bit more than my .7 multiplier) and ~109g fat (nearly zero carb) equating to ~1800 cal daily. Im still breaking pr’s, and am stronger than I’ve ever been..but cant get rid of the last bit of belly fat fast enough.. is it a patience and diligence thing? Or should I tinker a bit more?
David-
I think just patience. You will not see that belly fat really go ’til you are below 10%. You MAY also hit a point when BF is lower and you may need a bit of carbs to function well during training.
I think that this has happened to me – when I am getting less sleep I will tend to put on weight. I can track it to increased calories though, nothing more. The more tired I am the more I seem to want to eat! BUT I suspect it tends to put on fat on my abdomen so the actual way it deposits seems to change.
I eat a Paleo diet overall and have been IFing for quite a while in one form or another. Doing it too often leads to binge eating for me. For a time I was fasting for around 18 hrs every day and eating in a 4 hour window and that did not work out well. I would want to overeat.
IF is very good in general I feel. When I don’t overdo it, it really helps me keep my food intake at a reasonable level. I’ve done very low carb for long periods and for me it always came down to calories in and out (I realise others disagree) except that high carb makes me retain water and makes me more hungry so I will tend to eat more if I make the mistake of eating more than a certain amount of carbs daily.
Lillia-
totally agree. there is a therapeutic dose of IF for everyone and that amount may be low depending upon the circumstances.
Robb,
I just started listening to your podcast and have learned a lot already. Thanks for all of the good information. I work on a tugboat near Seattle and I work a 6 hour on 6 hour off schedule for two weeks, then I’m off for two weeks. As you can imagine, my sleep is less than ideal, never more than 5 hours at a time, and when I do sleep, the boat is still working (noise, vibration, movement) so is isn’t very hygenic. When I get home it is hard to switch back over to my family’s normal routine. My question is will paleo help me get better sleep and do you have any other suggestions with this crappy schedule? Thanks, Matt
Matt-
It will certainly help vs generally poor eating. Natural Calm before sleeping will likely help as well.
Lillea,
I have the same experience – not enough sleep screws up my appetite control system, I feel hungrier and eat more. Also more calories as fat and I put on weight. For me – as I am a pretty small female always prone to putting on weight easily and exercise 3 times week, I do have to be cautious about how much I eat or I put on weight (which I hate – vanity more than anything!).
Getting enough sleep, eating about the right protein :carb ratio and I get perfect appetite control and then all’s good in the weight department.
I don’t IF, just get over hungry and then overeat, and then I get all out of sync with appetite control – so it just doesn’t work for me. I just listen to my body and eat when I’m hungry – in fact I enjoy feeling a bit hungry not not too much.
Robb,
I´m 27 year-old male, 197cm and 100kilos, bf around 15%. Eating paleo, with some cheats (mainly 85-99% dark chocolate and ice cream). Sleeping 7,5-8,5 hours a night. I´ve been doing IFing and the only problem is that eating my first meal (usually lunch) after 15-hour fasting makes me feel sleepy.
Why is that? Am I eating too heavily?
At lunch I usually eat an omelet of five eggs, 200grams of beef/fish and a ton of veggies.
I usually train 4 hours after the first meal, and after that I eat the rest of that days meals.
I´ve been off the caffein for 17 days now, so it can´t be that what is making me so drowsy.
Aatu-
I notice being sleepy the first few weeks of IF. Give it a little time and see if you adapt.
I moved the omelet to the post-workout meal and I no longer get sleepy.
IF is really making a difference for me in performance and leaning out.
I’ve been on it for 2,5 weeks and it´t f-ing amazing. That “eat every 3 to 4 hours and post-workout just hammer down some serious carbs”-method just got me fat and had no improvement in performance. Maybe it fits some people, but not for me.
Good stuff, I find this simple approach works remarkably well.
Hey Robb,
Just wondering of your thoughts on yoga, its pros and cons as opposed to CrossFit. I’ve been crossfitting for about a year, but I’m kind of tired of the constant metcons that my gym does.
I am a rockclimber and do a little bit of parkour so body weight movements/calisthenics are what my fitness routes or focuses are.
I heard power vinyasa has an emphasis on gymnastic type movements, but as I search for opinions in the CrossFit community – yoga is often frowned upon. So I want to do what the best type of conditioning I should do for my bouldering.
Thanks!
Bea-
I like yoga, not only for the mobility but also for the stress relief. That said, if you are really geeked on rock climbing I’d recommend Capoeira over yoga as it is more athletic, you go upside down and this has a nice therapeutic effect on the flexor compartment of the fore-arms. I think you’d love it, the conditioning would compliment your climbing and it’s a ton of fun. Do some yoga too if you want but I’d do some Capoeira.
Don’t appreciate the hippy comment. I’d call you a jackass but I kinda like you…
Easy now! I married a hippy ;0)
Thanks for any other informative site. The place else may I get that type of information written in such a perfect means? I have a project that I am just now operating on, and I’ve been at the glance out for such info.
I know this is some serious article necromancy, but Robb, do you have any advice on how to deal with sleep disruptions caused by ketosis? I’ve been unable to do keto because I just can’t sleep on it. I’ve tried adding some carbs at night, but going in and out of ketosis every day isn’t great either. Is there a fix or should I just stick with a diet that’s low carb but not quite ketogenic when I’m cutting fat?