This Vitamin A, D and K issue (VA, VD, VK from here on out) has gotten heated in a few circles. My recommendations on the topic have been based in large part on Prof. Cordain’s recommendations, and his thoughts were extensions of some work indicating a potential antagonistic action of VA against VD. This has created some kind of Cod Liver Oil Vs The World kinda scenario that I think is missing the point.
Let’s back up from this a minute and consider a few things:
1-Who are you? What are YOUR needs?
This is not some kind of existentialist question but more a question of health status. Many people entering into this whole Paleo-esque lifeway find they have significant levels of inflammation. Often evidenced by pain, swelling, overweight, allergies and sometimes more significant problems. Dietary recommendations focus on pushing out pro-inflammatory, gut irritating grains, legumes and diary in favor for meats, sea food, and seasonal fruits and veggies. Ideally, a solid NUTRITONAL base is formed and folks start looking, feeling and performing better almost immediately. In an effort to speed this process supplemental fish oil is often recommended to help folks cool the fires of inflammation via increased N-3 (Omega-3) fat intake. This is particularly important for people who have been quite sick, inflamed or who are overweight. The standard western diet unfortunately over emphasizes sources of short chain N-6 (Omega-6) which are pro-inflammatory. So folks may find themselves benefitting from taking rather large doses of fish oil. Like 20-30g of EPA/DHA per day for some folks, at leas initially. That’s a lot but it’s spot on for certain situations. Now, what type of N-3 source should one use? If you are a health educator, gym owner or other person who works with the public what makes the most sense to recommend in this situation? Many folks have contacted me on this VA/VD issue who seem to be BIG fans of the Weston Price Foundation. I like WPF, but I have some points of disagreement, but in large part I like what they have going on. Most of these folks through (WPF) recommend using cod liver oil (CLO) for supplemental N-3 as well as VA/VD. Well, let’s look at one of my favorite products, Carlson’s Cod Liver Oil. Now, from the nutrition info we see that a teaspoon of CLO provides 900mg of EPA/DHA, 800IU VA, 400 IU VD. So, in my example above, of a person new to all these concepts, who is trying to get healthy and is recommended they take CLO for their N-3 needs they will be ingesting more than 20-30x that single dose of VA/VD.
At 20g it’s 18,888 IU VA.
At 30g It’s 28,333 IU VA
Obviously the VD levels are ~half those the VA, ~9,000 and 13,500 respectively. Now this LOOKS like a whopping dose of VA, and it’s not shabby. Are there any toxicity issues here? Not likely. But it’s a hell of a dose that has no feedback control, unlike getting VA from carotenoids. Although the “Upper Limit” is set at ~10,000 IU this is for AVERAGE people. The folks who are taking this much fish oil are overweight and I’d wager have a pretty large buffering capacity to deal with that extra VA. As they lose weight and get healthier they will lower their dose and thus decrease intake of VA/VD. But are YOU comfortable with recommending a borderline toxic dose of VA? Do you recommend “some CLO” and “some fish oil”? What’s YOUR easiest, best, safest recommendation here?
A few studies seem to indicate VA might be antagonistic towards VD. In response to this information Cordain, myself and some other folks have recommended that perhaps one should supplement with fish oil and VD (ideally from sunlight), and leave the VA to production from carotenoids.
Many folks have said this approach is ineffective due to a “lack of conversion of carotenoids to VA”. There are studies that indicate a wide variance in absorption/conversion of carotenoids to VA, but no mechanism is described. A little digging shows (shockingly) that deficiencies in VA and VK might be best attributed to gut irritation ala celiac. Interestingly however celiacs appear to absorb carotenoids BETTER than VA when the gut is irritated. Not just this, but a TIGHT control mechanism is in place that immediately down-regulates the conversion of carotenoids to VA upon the ingestion of carotenoids. You folks who have dismissed carotenoid conversion to VA as being “negligible” have missed the boat. We would not have a mechanism in place such as this if the system did not require tight control. Also, you folks have made the point these carotenoids “need to be associated with fat”. Considering this is coming from the WPF corners I cannot believe one of y’all have considered the input of animal fat associated carotenoids. Keep in mind this is only considering Beta carotine, there are several other carotenoids that can convert to VA, and this is only considering the MEAT, not the rendered fat which would supply larger amounts of carotenoids. In simple terms, the only problem I see with VA production is if the gut is damaged. Keep this in mind.
Chris Masterjohn has written quite a bit on the VA/VD/VK topic and seems to indicate that this whole situation is remedied when we have a BALANCE of vitamins A, D, and K! Another interesting piece to the whole picture: Vit K absorption is highly dependant on gut health (primary sources are green leafy plants), as is the fermentive production of one of the VK variants. Bad gut health=bad VA, VK.
My how things get complex!!
So, what’s the take-home on all this?
Is VA a problem with VD? Well, it depends. I’d buy the position Masterjohn puts forward that a balance is necessary for these nutrients, but the REALLY important point here is the balance becomes ever more important as the DOSAGES INCREASE. Consider this:
If we take in large amounts of these fat-soluble vitamins we are “committed” down this course of action. Right ratios, wrong ratios, this is where we are going. Did you balance you supplements correctly? Get the right amounts of VA,VD,VK? Are you SURE? Just asking.
By contrast however you cold get your VD as such:
Conversion of cholesterol to VD via UV light exposure. When your body has enough, it makes no more.
Your VA by:
Conversion of carotenoids to VA and again, when you body ahs enough, production halts.
Your VK:
Absorption from plants, fermentation from gut bacterial. Both are dependant on a healthy gut.
Now, I may be completely wrong here. Perhaps the superior way to get all this is via cod liver oil, but here is my seriously wacky position:
If you eat the bulk of your protein from grass fed/wild caught sources, eat seasonal veggies and fruits, get some sun on your skin, keep your gut healthy (no grains and legumes, limited diary) you do not NEED any supplements. If you have not noticed I tend to be very reticent to suggest much beyond fish oil, magnesium and a few odds and ends. There ARE studies suggesting large dose antioxidants and supplements are NOT good for you, so I’m trying to make the best recommendations I can while also maintaining some kind of integrity in all this. I could make a pretty good bit of money hawking supplements but I’m hard pressed to find need for them other than in specific situations.
After 4 days of reading studies, looking at metabolic pathways and trying to make sense of stuff I honestly am not that jazzed about, I don’t know that it really matters one way or the other. If your ducks are in a row I doubt cod liver oil (vitamin A) is going to be a problem, but then again, I’m hard pressed to find a legitimate argument FOR it. Until I see convincing evidence to change this I’m going to keep recommending a minimalist approach: Grass fed meats, loads of seasonal fruits and veggies and call it good. Y’all can do what you want! The whole thing honestly boils down to this for me:
Diana Hsieh says
I’m not even remotely qualified to comment on the science, but I can say the following:
I’ve had longstanding problems with my dental health. Even though my teeth were cleaned by my hygienist every three months and I was brushing with a Sonicare, flossing daily, etc., I had inflamed gums, sensitive teeth, and new cavities with every set of x-rays. And yowza, those cleanings were painful!
Paleo made no difference in that… until I added cod liver oil and butter oil. (I buy them at https://www.building-health.com — I’ve got no financial relationship with them.) Within a few days, I noticed that my teeth were smooth almost all the time. Over the course of a few months, they built up a noticeable new mineral layer. Since then, my gum inflammation has completely disappeared, my cleanings are painless, and I’ve not had a single cavity.
Also, a few months ago, I was having problems with an area where I’d had gum surgery. (The gum receded before I began taking CLO & BO, so I had some tissue transplanted from the roof of my mouth. The whole thing was downright awful.) A few months after the surgery, the gum tissue was inflamed, and the tooth underneath it was horribly sensitive. I was worried that a huge problem was brewing, and that I might lose the tooth. So I rubbed a few drops of fermented CLO into it every day for a few weeks, and that made a HUGE difference in short order. That tooth and gum is now nearly perfect. (Bewarned! Fermented CLO is the most disgusting substance known to man.)
Oh, and I’ve given up my fancy toothbrush too. I still floss, but I brush with a regular toothbrush, mostly just with water but sometimes with baking soda.
I’d never take CLO as a source of Vitamin D or as a substitute for fish oil. (I supplement those separately.) But in small doses of 1-2 capsules per day, cod liver oil plus butter oil has worked wonders for me.
Robb Wolf says
Diana-
Good stuff, thanks for sharing that. I think this also paints the picture of a tsp or two per day of CLO being a pretty good option.
Geoff says
Something that Dr. Harris has mentioned a number of times that I think is probably relevant to this discussion is that PUFA are all inflammatory, and rather than trying to offset your n-6 intake with n-3, you should really be reducing your n-6 intake in favor of SFA. He says that PUFA should consist of no more than 10-15% of your calories. Of course, the conclusion is the same: stop taking supplements.
Robb Wolf says
Geoff-
Great point, and it flows right into my point.
Chris Kresser says
Robb,
Thanks for covering this.
I couldn’t agree more with you on the benefits of obtaining nutrients from food rather than supplements. Along those lines, CLO is really more of a nutrient-dense food than it is a “supplement”. When I think of supplements, I think of synthetic, isolated compounds.
Traditional cultures have a long history of using highly prized foods for special purposes. For example, many cultures had a “pre-conception” diet that women wanting to get pregnant would follow. It included especially nutrient-dense foods like salmon roe, and perhaps cod livers, that weren’t necessarily a normal part of the diet for everyone. I think it’s best to consider CLO in this vein: a food with medicinal properties.
As for the VA toxicity issue, I think the evidence is pretty clear that the 5:1 ratio of A:D in CLO is not problematic for people. In animal studies where A was shown to antagonize D, the ratios used were more like 5,000:1. Add to that the long history of safe use and anecdotal reports like Diane’s above, and I think it doesn’t make sense to tell people that CLO is a bad idea.
Finally, I personally believe 20g/d of fish oil is a really bad idea. As you well now, the historical intake of PUFA was about 4% of calories max. At 20g/d on a 2,000 calorie diet, that’s 9% of calories just from n-3 PUFA, without even considering n-6 (which for most people even on a paleo-type diet is at least 3%). So now we’re talking about 12% calories from PUFA.
The problem is that PUFA is highly unsaturated and thus highly vulnerable to oxidative damage. While there will be anti-inflammatory benefits to bumping up n-3, we could also expect a rather dramatic increase in oxidative stress.
Keep up the great work.
Robb Wolf says
Thanks Chris!
Jennifer says
i concur, but i would also argue that many people who are new to the non-SAD path are woefully out of balance. so perhaps supplements are needed during the transition phase, particularly as gut bacteria make their shift and as digestion improves.
Robb Wolf says
Jennifer-
Yep, totally agree. But that becomes highly specific, I’m just trying to get “big picture” stuff going here, but you are spot on.
Alex says
Thanks for the info Robb. So do you recommend a daily multivitamin for people who are new to paleo and not quite 100% yet? What about the argument of taking vitamins to help counteract the oxidative stress from heavy weight training?
Robb Wolf says
Alex-
The oxidative stress is WHAT we are adapting to! Use plants for that. NewChapter has a good, low dose multi, unfortunately they aligned themselves with the Blood Type doc many years ago.
Samantha Moore says
Those laughing monkeys made me laugh. What does that mean?
Robb Wolf says
samantha-
I was focussing on the whoopee cushion!
matt says
Oh great, I didn’t know you could get VD from sunlight!
Robb Wolf says
Matt-
Especially in Chico!!
Squatchy says
/high five Rob. I agree with your position on this stuff. If you eat the grass-fed/pastured/wild-caught meats, good seasonal veggies/fruits, get good sun, and keep the junk out, then you really shouldn’t need all these supplements. The safest most effective way seems to be to get this stuff in the way we traditionally have, from whole foods and environment. The body seems to take care of itself when given all the right inputs, and quite effectively at that. Why try to circumvent all that?
Haha, I feel like the guy in that video all the time.
Wes says
Dr. Harris recommends a much lower PUFA intake: n-6 less than 4% of Calories, n-6:n-3 ratio close to 2:1.
http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2009/6/22/fats-and-oils.html
ob says
Hi Rob, completely agree with what you’ve said except for Vitamin D. If diet is right then so are nutrients, however, we only get a small amount of D from diet and can get a lot more from sun.
No (or few clothes) and an 1/2-1 hr in sun (depends on time of year, latitutde etc) and the body makes 10,000-20,000 IU’s of D. Primitive man spent a lot of time outside and did not wear much in the way of clothes. Modern man tends to spend a lot of time inside and wears clothes. This reduces surface area exposed and duration of exposure to UVB. Unless people are able to spend enough time outside, wearing little clothing, between about 10-4pm on a regular basis then the VD levels will not be optimal. (Note for other readers -avoid getting sunburnt if you choose to cautiously sunbath as there is definitely increased risk of skin cancer in “traumatised” skin, generally speaking cancers find traumatised tissues a good site to develop in especially if the trauma is severe, repeated or of low grade but long duration).
Also, in winter due to the angle of the sun most of the UVB is absorbed in the atmosphere and sunbathing will not generate much VD- supplements are the way to go here.
What I do is to take 2-3,000 units of vitamin D in spring, summer and autumn on days I do not get out into sun. I take the same amount most days in the winter as I know there is no way I am getting much VD at all even if I am out in the sun a lot on a given day. I also take fish oil and a little chelated magnesium.
OB
The other curiousity is that cod liver oils vary in composition, these days nearly all are “hot” processed and tend to have a lot more vitamin A relative to vitamin D. Prior to (I think) around 1960-1970 the cod liver oils were all cold processed with much higher vitamin D content (from memory the cold processed oil has 3-5 times as much VD per unit volume with vitamin A about the same). I think there is still one manufacturer using cold processing.
Robb Wolf says
OB-
Good stuff, agreed.
Dave says
Where does this leave us desk jockeys who simply aren’t ever going to get enough VitD from sunlight?
And thanks, Matt. I’m going to make sure never to use that other abbreviation again!
Robb Wolf says
Dave-
My recommendations i to get ~5,000IU of D3 per say, get levels checked and make sure they are above 50. Can CLO play a role in that? I think it’s fine, but I don’t know that I’d use it for the total amount.
Jeff A says
Just what I needed. Thanks Robb
Aaron Blaisdell says
Thanks, Robb, for the good reminder to keep it real. I try to minimize my supplement use, but my story about dental health almost exactly mirrors Diana’s. I take 1/2 teaspoon of high-vitamin fermented cod liver oil and high-vitamin butter oil each day, and only need to brush once per day (and floss of course). My gum inflammation is virtually gone (just minor occasional flair ups when I’ve had too much drinking or cake *gasp* during the holidays). Stephan Guyenet has also posted about the synergistic relationship between vitamins A, D3, and K2 in physiological processes, such as mineral absorption and depositing.
Btw, Dr. Mike Eades has recommended on his blog to get omega-3 from krill oil to avoid many of the contaminants in fish oils. And I’ve read that they have a better DHA/EPA profile, closer to what our body uses. (I could be off on this, just dumping from a shoddy memory).
Love your podcasts, btw. I’m up to #28 on my daily commute.
Keep it up!
manny c says
way to lay the nutritional smack down on this! makes pretty good sense to me. sometimes i can score a big bottle of clo for 50% off becuase of a sell by date. score. take a few swigs evey other day pop a 5k iu vit d softgel with it, see if i need to buy any more regualr fish oil san va/ad when it runs out. all the while really making sure i spend my time and energy on the foundational stuff.
it seems like the people getting the best results in terms of health optmiziation/disease prevention/symptom mitigation, performance enhancement and body comp changes, are ‘experts at the basics’. kind of like the best world class elite athletes, the best results come from consistently executing the basic (i.e. rookie/beginner stuff)/fundamentals at a higher level of excellence. take home i get from you? get really damn good at the simple stuff. i preach the same message when people come to me for advice, become an all star rookie then worry about some of this other stuff. an analogy i’ve had success with? worrying so much about these supplemental details is like trying to dust the coffee table when the house is in fire. first things first right?
Robb Wolf says
Manny-
Exactly, like the Straight Blast Gym philosophy: “advanced” fighting techniques are the basics executed flawlessly.
Steve S. says
Robb –
Thanks for the write-up. One question – you’ve mentioned on the podcasts and in writing about Mg supplements. I haven’t found or missed the area where you talked about the specific reasons for Mg supplementation.
Can you go into that? I have been taking 400mg/day Mg citrate for a couple of months and feel better. It’s tough to put a finger on specifically why I feel better, just better. (in addition to 4000iu VD, 6-7g EPA/DHA, 750mg glucosamine/750mg chondroitin per day).
noah says
Robb, interesting write up on helping your cat lose weight. Basically, a dry food diet is going to make any cat obese due to the carb content. Sound familiar?
http://ask.metafilter.com/155273/help-me-get-my-fat-cat-slim#2226472
Robb Wolf says
Noah-
Keystone was ( I think) borderline diabetic when I arrived on the scene. Paleo cat food decreased his constant thirst and leaned him out a bunch.
Sasha says
Hi Robb,
I’d just like to mention that WAPF is nor really recommending Carlsons CLO, but rather raw, unrefined and fermented cod liver oil(Blue Ice) which has all the vitamins intact, which means better VA to VD being that most of VD is lost in regular processing. Also during the fermentation the vitamin content increases as in the case of VK.
I’d really like to know your take on the Blue Ice CLO. My family and I had great results with it which surmounted any benefits we got from regular fish oils that we were taking for few years before that.
Robb Wolf says
Sasha-
thanks for the clarification. Not familiar with that product, will check it out.
Clay says
Great paper. I was looking for your insight on meat source. I was talking to the butchers at Whole Foods and they said their regular beef is fed a 70% grass diet. The rest is wheat and barley. No corn. The cows are free to rome as well. Does this qualify their non 100% grassfed meat as being pretty legit? Ay concerns basing a diet off of 70% grassfed meat?
Robb Wolf says
Clay-
Sounds like they are raised a bit more humanely, that’s about it. Grassfed is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than any level of grain feeding.
Steve Caddy says
Robb, it seems like every correspondence I have with you begins with “my wife, a cardiac nurse, says…” but she’s my devil’s advocate in everything nutritional so:
My wife, a cardiac nurse, makes disapproving, Marge Simpson-like sounds when it comes to VD supplementation, citing concerns about increased risk of calcification in the hearteries and inability to excrete super-optimal amounts.
No-one seems to be addressing this but I’m very much down with the suggestion to get out in the sun. Maybe this is another rule of thumb: If your paleo comes in pills something’s amiss.
Robb Wolf says
Steve-
Ask your wife:
1-At what Vit D levels do we see tissue calcification? (hint here, far higher than what we are recommending:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D#Overdose_by_ingestion)
2-Why can we produce 10,000-20,000IU from sunlight in the matter of 1/2 hour, yet see NO hypercalcimia? Why does supplementation in this range produce no problems?
3-Why, when I search Pubmed (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/pubmed) for the term “vitamin d toxicity” do I find predominately references related to Vitamin D insufficiency?
I guess I have not addressed this because unless folks are on Lithium or suffer from hyperparathyroid it’s not much of an issue, especially when considering the benefits of adequate Vit D.
Roelant says
Robb!
Perfect timing, I have a gato question! (my gato….). I know you’re not a vet, but my cat has been through the works. extreme weightloss, had apparently elevated WBC count, doctors found bacteria, put him on antibiotics, cool. kidney issues with elevated creatinine levels, put him on IV fluids for a while, good to go. Took x rays and a biopsy, nobody can find what’s wrong with him (been through 2 vets and a lot of $$). He eats VERY LITTLE. poor little guy is 6lbs, skinny (I can feel his vertebrae), but still very playful, not listless or depressed but as I said eats very little…till last night, he lunged at my girlfriend’s plate because we were eating ground beef. It took us by surprise so much (and we’re borderline desperate for him to eat) that we gave him a bit. No seasoning, well cooked, just lightly salted because she sprinkled on a bit for herself. He licked the plate bone dry. LOVED IT. I know this probably makes sense to you, but we’re a bit hesitant to put him in particular back on an evolutionary type diet because if he starts eating that way and gets picky and stops eating, we’re royally screwed. I’m convinced that our vets will also tell us that its a bad idea and to put him on another dry food that they just happen to be selling, know what I mean? thoughts?
Roelant
Robb Wolf says
Roelant-
We use Evo by Innova (the grain free version) and Keystone really likes it. We supplement with sardines, salmon and a little chicken if/when he pesters us for it. Might give this a try.
Cynthia says
@Steve S. re: magnesium–
I started taking 500 mg magnesium a day about 2 months ago. Among its benefits: helps with heart rhythm, assists muscle function, and increases calcium absorption (bone density). So it kinda helps everything feel better!
For me, taking magnesium has virtually gotten rid of my PVCs (premature ventricular contractions)–I only get those when I’m really really tired and hungry; NO MORE MENSTRUAL CRAMPS–zilch, zero, nada. Not so interesting for you, but ladies with cramps should take note!
Steve says
Hey Robb
A little off topic.
I just brought your book on Amazon. I can’t wait to get it, but I don’t want to rush my summer.
I hope to get it signed when you come to New Jersey.
Maybe sometime soon?
Robb Wolf says
Steve-
I’ll be on the east coast in Sept pimping the book! I’ll get you then and thank you for the support and interest!
Roelant says
Hey Robb,
Not sure if you care, but I called and apparently Innova is being sold (or has been sold) to Proctor & Gamble. Not sure how honest they are about their “natural” products….Just FYI
Robb Wolf says
Roelant-
Hmmm…that does not automatically mean the end of the line for a good product. thanks for the info!
Marty H says
We used the EVO dry cat food for our 5 cats for about a year. We purchased 2 large bags in January 2012. Right after serving them this new food all 5 cats either refused to eat or vomited. Took a few days and lots of carpet cleaning to realize the food had become the problem. Returned both bags to the pet store for refund then bought some Orijen (Champion Pet Foods)out of Canada and smooth sailing. 42% protein, 20% fat. Zero% grain. Only found out later that other folks had the same problem with Evo.
Squatchy says
Are you going to be coming to the southeast any time upcoming? Anywhere around the Atlanta or Charlotte area (or in between)?
Robb Wolf says
Squatchy-
Will be in Atlanta before too long.
Beth says
I would love to hear why you think 20-30g of omega 3 is “spot on for certain situations.” I’m concerned about taking that much o3 from pills.
For one, you’d also have to be very confident that your supplement was high quality — it’d sure be a waste of $$ and health to be scarfing down fish oil that was either contaminated or oxidized!
For another, I’ve seen that Chris Masterjohn (whom you seem to respect) is recommending that dietary EPA be kept fairly low (like .5% of calories), which is in the ballpark of just 1g for a 2000 cal diet.
Robb Wolf says
Beth-
Check out the previous podcasts. This is for folks who are overweight/ill who need to turn the titanic. Then we bring things down to more sustainable levels. I only recommend this because it works ;0)
julianne says
re feeding pets paleo style here’s a couple of links
http://www.rawessentials.co.nz/content/page38/Articles.html
http://www.rawessentials.co.nz/content/page54/Diets.html
http://www.rawmeatybones.com/
Steve says
Question for someone. I was buying some Vitamin D3 and I noticed Carlson’s D3 4000iu per capsule were (cod liver oil and cholecalciferol). Nordics D3 1000iu per capsule were only (cholecalciferol) Is one better than the other? thanks
Kari O. says
Robb —
Just saw your post for the seminar at Potomac CF in Arlington. That’s literally 5 minutes from my house…BUT as my luck would have it, I’m in Vegas that weekend for my Bach/Bachelorette party…I don’t think the 20 people going to Vegas for us would appreciate me backing out. haha
Any chance you’re in this area leading up to or following this seminar for another one???
-Kari
Robb Wolf says
Kari-
We will be back soon! Have fun in Vegas!!
Victor says
Hi Robb – many thanks for a great website and podcast!
What is your experience with eczema in general (and sebborehic dermatitis in particular).
I switched to strict Paleo a couple of weeks ago (inc. eliminating nightshades) and have seen some improvements – however, today I had a small flare up despite not eating anything out of the ordinary.
I’ve started supplementing with Vit-D (5,000 IU) and fish oil 10 days ago.
Would deeply appreciate any input you might have.
Kind regards,
Victor
Dave says
Rob
My wife is a critical care nurse and she had a cow when I told here I was going to take 54 fish oil tabs a day. I am new to paleo have been crossfitting for about 6 months now and have not lost any weight. about 30lb overweight, with arthitic knees so I went with the .75 factor.
The missus told me that those level of fish oil represent a denager for bleeding problems
what is your take on this?
Naftali Bernhem says
Rob, I am a newbie with paleo,but excited as I am begining to work hard to apply it to my life… first came on the scene as a WPF guy but mostly because of my 3 year old son hade complete tooth decay, all over his teeth. We started ordering 2 products from Green Pastures … High vitamin butter oil(grass fed) and the CLO (not synthetic,actually its naturally fermented) we did this cause we didnt want to run to surgery at a hospital with anestesia…so we started exploring options, anyway this combination which is recomended by WP himself has completely repaired his teeth over the last 2 years… absolutely amazing i must say… Anyways for this need CLO and Raw grass fed milk/butter has proven itself to provide the right nutrients for enamel repair… i noticed the first commenter had the same story and I wanted to share our personal success with this. But if you dont need it for this specific reason maybey the CLO is not needed. anyways we are totally going paleo last few months and feeling great. BTW i really appreciate your approach and the fact that you are open and non-cult about this whole thing. thanks so much….l
Robb Wolf says
Very kind and thank you for sharing that. Sounds like a remarkable change, folks need to know these possibilities exist.
naftali bernhem says
i was a doubtfull about this clo/raw grass fed butter oil solution at first but read on it, Weston Prices book on Degeneration and tooth care is one, it all revolves around our foods, of course he shows a way of doing it with the food you eat, not necassarily supplements, but since we didnt have the diet thing down so well yet we used the supplements, and really did amazing results on his teeth…. oh yeah …Im celiac …. one of the reasons I found myself walking in the palio direction…. every heard of the poly-meal diet… was using it for fighting celiac and inflamation (Dr. recommended)… also close to a palio diet … thanks
Ashley M. says
Robb,
Is there such thing as too high of a vitamin D blood level? Specifically, something like 85 ng/mL? I’m confused as hell about whether I should continue supplementing with 2000 IU per day. My guess was that my digestion has been so poor for so long that I needed to supplement due to poor absorption…
(Now I’m 90% strict paleo (little bit of pastured dairy), grass-fed beef (never corn fed), with HDL of 98 (total 204)).
On another note, I love the Now Foods mag citrate. They make a dye-free version that is just great and cheap on amazon.
Loved your book. I’m hoping to have a “consult” with you in the future, when I can scrape the cash together.
Cheers,
Ashley
Robb Wolf says
85 is the top end for sure, hard to achieve for most.
Ashley M. says
Hi Robb,
Thanks. Is 85 safe though? I live in Tucson Arizona so I do get me some good sunshine…wondering if I should stop the supplementation.
I recently learned that if a person has really high vitamin D, that taking supplemental calcium can be very bad – as in, the calcium can settle in the arteries. (I don’t take calcium anymore!) What are your thoughts on this arterial calcification? Do you think that arterial calcification (in general) can be reversed via an anti-inflammatory, paleo diet? Or is it permanent, and something to be managed?
Cheers,
Ashley
P.S. I have been dumb in the past and taken Citrical – lots of it. I’m wondering if this might have led to some calcification – and if a high HS-CRP (3.5) and a relatively high LP-PLA2 test (198) might indicate that this has happened? Do you have thoughts on the LP-PLA2 test? It seems pretty legit…
Robb Wolf says
i believe so, yes. and hart to achieve. I’ll cover the LP-PLA2 in the podcast!
Ashley M. says
Awesome!! I will repost my question about calcium/arterial calcification and/or plaque/LP-PLA2 as a question for the blog. Not sure about a catchy handle though…
Cheers,
ashley
maurice says
Rob,
I had the same problem….I took to much vitamin D3 and mine was tested at ‘101’ supposedly toxic range….but my doc was more concerned that my lp-pla2 number being 278.03! remnan lipoprotein 32! and vldl3 13…… I stopped talking vitamin d3..im going to wait 90 days…and then retest and see what happens to all of those 4 numbers……I can not find anything on the web that discusses vit d3 and pla2, etc
just wandering if you have more insight for us on this topic?
thanks
maurice
[email protected]
ashley says
Maurice,
What did you find after those 90 days, or have you done that testing yet? I stopped taking the D3 and my level plummeted to 42. I am now taking minimal D3 (when I travel to cold places) and sometimes take a 400 IU pill during the week.
I’d still love to hear Robb talk about the LpPLA2 test sometime on the blog.
Cheers,
Ashley
Laura H says
Robb,
what are your thoughts on indoor tanning in the winter for vitamin D production as an alternative to supplementation? I live in Canada and for 5-6 months the sun is pretty hard to find. In the winter i usually go to a tanning bed once a week for 15 min, nothing extreme, no orange leather skin here 🙂
Thanks!
L
Robb Wolf says
Laura-
I LOVE tan lines, but I suspect that is not what you are asking! It’s a dodgy thing. I think it might be ok, but I’d keep exposures more on the 5min level, not 15 of continuous. Also, you need both UVA and UVB to produce D, many bulbs only produce UV A. Good luck, keep me posted.
Laura H says
Thanks Robb,
There is a tanning salon that advertizes their low-pressure bulbs as 95% UVA 5% UVB.
ill check it out, maybe have my VD levels checked too.
Aatu says
I have a question from my friend. He has type 1 diabetes, Crohns disease and third autoimmunity disease which I cannot recall right now. He lives in far north where there is little or no sunligth during winter months. He has been taking 5000IU of Vitamin D (Now Foods) daily for a year. Now he told me that he has been getting a lots of loose stools which he claims that improves when he doesn´t take the daily dose of Vitamin D.
I googled the case and I got an answer that “large doses of vitamin D can cause loose stools” and that it´s a sign of overdosage of Vitamin D.
What are your thoughts? Is overdose the cause or do you think that it has something to do with the Crohns?
He is not eating paleo, although he is the one person who I think would benefit the most from paleo diet.
Thanks.
Heidi says
Hi Robb, been a follower for a while and recommend Paleo to my patients. Have seen them drop a lot of weight..Thank you! Trying to figure out the whole vitamin deal. Research is so contradictory. Looks like Cod Liver Oil with provide enough VD and VA so I can take Mg with that and should be good. Do you have a recommendation for Mg product? Also, I have always been told to take enough calcium..dont see you make mention of that. Thanks so much, Heidi
Robb Wolf says
Correct on the calcium, we’ve talked a ton on this int he podcast. I like natural calm, cod live roil is great. That covers MOST of what most folks need.
Sarah says
Hello Rob, to follow up on Heidi’s question, do you have a preference for a brand for your cod liver oil? Also, what is your thought on vitamin C.
Robb Wolf says
I like Carlsons, Chris Kresser swears by…I think Green Pastures. it’s fermented. Vit-c…ehhh it really enhances iron absorption, I’m not really a fan of consistent supplementation with it.
Sarah says
thank you Robb. I just looked at label of Carlson’s CLO and it only has 400 I.U. VD. Is this enough VD for a person of normal weight or do I still need to add extra D. If so, how much do you recommend?
Nancy says
Hi Robb, just a quick question here (and I know you are the Man for this:))concerning vitamin D supplement; Should I take any if I live in Canada in the mountain where the sun doesn’t shine most of the winter months if I have an allergy to fish, and “What kind”?
I am following the paleo for about 1 1/2 year now, I am 115lbs-5’2″, I eat grass fed meat, fruits and vegetables
(no dairy, eggs, nuts, grains)
Thanks in advance!
Amy Kubal says
YES!! You should definitely take some Vitamin D if you are getting zero sun and no fish! Get some liquid Vitamin D-3 drops and start with about 5000IU/day. I highly recommend that you get your Vitamin D levels checked. Ask your physician to run the lab for you!
Elisa says
Dear Robb,
I’m aware this is an old article, but can’t seem to find any info on my persisting vitamin A deficiency. I’ve been on cod liver oil by the bottle, cod liver oil capsules, and also Vitamin A capsules that mainly contain retinol from cod liver oil. And still my lab results are 250 (range 300-1200). As I’m dealing with several auto immune issues and I’m almost 2 months pregnant, I’m worried what this deficiency might do to the baby and myself as well. I don’t think that supplementing will cause any birth defects if my levels are still that low.
However, I managed to get my vitamin D and Zinc up to high normal levels, but even after 2 years of supplementing vitamin A, it’s still around the same 250 level.
What could cause this in your opinion?
There is so little info to be found online about this subject. But am convinced that getting levels to a normal range means a lot in auto immune conditions.
Highly appreciate if you could share your thoughts.
Thank you.
Best,
Elisa
Brik says
I don’t believe carotenoids are converted well to the retinol form of vitamin A. I was regularly eating large servings of carrots, pumpkin, spinach, but ended up having very obvious vitamin A deficiency. I had wounds that were not healing, a bad case of bronchitis from a cold, a tooth abscess and gum infection, but within a day or two days of taking 40,000 IU’s of the retinol fish oil type A they all started to show signs of improving. The severe wound on my finger had been 6 weeks old and it continued to bleed every day and the poorly formed scar tissue reopened every day, but shortly after taking vit A within a day it started to finally stop bleeding as much, within a week it was healed over. Two weeks later it completely healed. The bronchitis took only 3 or 4 days to completely heal, I had yellow phlegm and was coughing throughout the day, the sinuses were infected too. I was taking 2000 IU’s of D3 and 100 mcg of vit K2 every day but not getting the preformed A. I think this caused a functional vit A deficiency that beta carotene sources alone could not alleviate. I am a firm believer now that we cannot all easily convert plant based beta carotene to vitamin A. Alcohol intake, aging, excess weight or blood sugar issues, magnesium deficiency are all supposed to compromise this conversion.