Here is episode 8 to get everyone their fix before the long weekend. Have a happy & safe New Year’s!
Download a transcript of Episode 8
- Ketogenic diets & migraines
- Peskin’s thoughts on fish oil
- Cheat meals & carb loading
- Moving folks to a perfect paleo diet
- Contrarian view of paleo diets
- Butter & autoimmune issues / Why don’t all folks do well on a low carb approach?
- Paleo diet & mass gain for 21 year-old male
- Paleo diet & fertility
- Junk food cravings during period
- Elderly folks gaining weight
- Diet prep for ranger school
- Huntington Disease / Broccoli & Thyroid function / Skin rashes / Alkaline foods / Why lean meats?
Show Notes – The_Paleolithic_Solution_Episode_8
Great Podcast again. The cheat meal topic always interest me, I personally find that whenever I cheat, it causes more cravings and really sends me on the wrong road….so I find not cheating keeps the cravings at bay. Glad you commented on OPT post on Peskin, I also was curious why OPT posted it, as I respect him immensely also. Thanks again for a interesting hour!!
In this episode you said that carb loading can have a positive anabolic impact on your next workout. I know you stated that you thought carb loading was overall unnecessary, but would carb loading be a good idea before a competition day? If not, what would be the best diet leading up to a comp and during the actual competition day?
Great work Robb and Andy!
One request: Often the only time I’m able to listen to these is at work, and even then my chances come in short bursts. When you post the contents of each Podcast, any chance you might annotate at which point in the episode each topic begins? That way one could prioritize the topics and skip immediately to the desired one(s).
Again, loving the material! Thanks for the effort!
A&R….Fracking good show!
The only down side of paleo diet is i had to pull the trigger on a new chest freezer, i out grew my my current one.
Goat Milk? I’ve seen this in the store, good/bad??
Happy New Year! Hope you guys keep the goods coming! I’ve been checking amazon..no book yet Robb??
Hey Robb, when incorporating a refeed meal once or twice/week, how many carbs do you think one should get? Also, how important is it to have these refeed meals following a training session?
I stick to under 50g carbs/day everyday. Following the MEBB training template, so 3 days heavy lifting with a short metcon after and I usually do one day of metcon work on top of that. Goal is to lean out a bit and gain some strength. Currently about 180 lbs, 8-9% bf and eating gluten/dairy free paleo. Keeping cals to 2000 5 days/week with 180 g p, 120 f and 50 c split over 4 meals. On refeed days, I am tinkering with replacing one meal with 250-300 g carbs, so I’ll end up at 2600-2700 cals on those days. Today had a refeed with sweet potatoes, applesauce and gluten free pancake mix right after workout.
Robb and Andy!
Love the podcast. I have to say I am guilty of re-listening numerous times to try and absorb the information. I am new to this whole Paleo concept but love it. It makes sense. Through research all the benefits you guys talk about seems sustainable, and well why wouldn’t our bodies operate best on the same diet humans have had for 1,000’s of years?
Anyway, to get to some questions I had. I am 21 years old, 5′ 6″, 140lbs and where I am at now is wanting to lean out some, then put on some muscle mass like you sugggest. (I was around 10 percent body fat this time last year but it has creeped up a little just due to a lower level of activity and some poor diet choices. I’m going to start phasing in this Paleo concept of eating and want to be pretty much completely Paleo (the 85-90% you guys talked about for people who aren’t serious competitive athletes) by the spring. I was curious to know more about the concept of Intermittent fasting and the role it plays in adopting the Paleo way of eating. When should I start Intermittent fasting, how long and how often?
Also out of curiosity I would love to hear your thoughts on extended fasts and what they do to the body. Not out of my own personal interest of doing one but just to see if you think they might have a place in the role of a healthier Paleo eater. I’m talking like a 3-10 days juice/water fast. At what point would the body make a significant dent in muscle mass? And do the supposed benefits of “detoxifying” weigh out the costs?
And lastly my father is a vegetarian that eats fish, eggs, and dairy products. However he does not eat very healthy and a switch to Paleo I think would work wonders for his energy levels and weight loss, with of course regular exercise which I am getting him into the habit of. Is there anything you recommend for a non-mammal or poultry eating person in regards to having a balanced Paleo diet? Or is eating fish and shellfish as your primary protein source all the time nothing to worry about?
Thanks a bunch and keep the podcasts coming. Great stuff and can’t wait to see the results Paleo eating brings along.
Hey Robb/Andy, thanks for the great pod casts, really appreciate the time you put in. Quick question about the coconut milk you so often recommend. I started going through about half a can a day (about 200ml), and noticed that the three or four brands at the local store all have a stabilizing/preservative ingredient such as guar gum or potassium metabisulphate. Is this of any concern, especially on a regular daily intake?
Keep up the good work, and thanks.
Robb on the Livin La Vida Locarb podcast Peskin straight out says to throw your fish oil away, it will KILL you. Apparently he likes flax and sunflower oil.
It would be cool if you could look into his claims, since here we are aiming at .5 to 1 gram per ten pounds of body weight as opposed to the bottles recomended 1 gram a day. I buy what your selling, but at the end of the day his comments are disconcerting.
Thanks again for the podcast and for answering my questions.
The question regarding OCD was interesting to me because I have personal experience with that. I have nothing diagnosed, but I certainly can see behavior patterns that resembles OCD problems. Also good to note that I’m dealing with leaky/inflamed gut and malabsorption.
In the last couple of months, I’ve really started to dial in my diet, and I’ve seen dramatic improvements with my OCD. My understanding is also that feeling better makes me less anxious or nervous and that helps a lot.
I’ve experienced with a lot of natural supplements to help my digestive process/inflammation before discovering the paleo diet. Bromelain, DGL, Slippery Elm, Aloe Vera juice and boswellia are some examples. Some of them where of good help, but in the end they where not good enough to be a permanent solution. The problems always found a way to creep back in.
I’m now recovering from the abuse of some of those supplements and eating a very clean paleo diet and I’m seeing good improvements, though at a slower pace than the supplements did. At least its a good long term plan and has no downside!
Let me chime in on the subject of ketogenic diets and migraines. I am, formerly, one of those people who was effin’ owned by migraines since childhood. And when I say, owned, I mean effin’ dominated and rocked and thrashed and kicked the shit out of me. (If you haven’t been there, you don’t know what I am talking about.)
Like a migraine came on and I would turn off all the lights and close the doors and very literally crawl under my bed and pray for death. People who would speak to me in whispers would sound like they were shouting at me. To say I was sensitive to both light and sound while suffering a migraine is to understate my condition.
Long story short: I find my way to Paleo eating and lo and behold, migraines which I have been suffering since I was 7 or so….completely disappear. I suspect, for me, it is not the ketosis aspect, but rather the elimination of wheat/gluten.
Anyhow, Paleo changed my life in many ways, but most especially, by eliminating the FUCKING massive migraines that used to destroy me.
Robb Wolf says
good to hear re the migraines. The results are usually pretty powerful.
Thanks again for this wonderful Podcast. Wouldn’t it be great if you added the respective timing/position to the topics section?
Wow! Thanks for taking the time to get this in before going away. good stuff!
Steve Richards says
In regards to your Peskin comments he has a 5 part video series on youtube from Boulderfest 08. In there he talks alot of parent oils vs. derivitive.. He gets talking so fast during the meat of the presentation that it almost seems like he is trying to slide something by you. Once again he doesnt really give you many suggestions.. If you have time give it a look
Robb Wolf says
Until Peskin offers a concrete prescription I’m kinda calling BS.
I’ve heard various comments on people not geling with the Paleo diet. I come from a fairly undeveloped part of the Philippines and I’m wondering if the pacific islander diet could be at odds with the Paleo diet. I’m over a month into a solid attempt at Paleo (tried and failed before). I’ve given up rice and most dairy and I’ve restricted my carb intake to 50-100g/day. My gut feels noticeably better than ever. My gi system is running better. Considering I have a family history of gi related cancers, I think this is a good thing.
I’d like to continue the Paleo kick. Right now my biggest hurdle is fat and protein. My appetite is having the worst time trying to eat more meat and I get bored of food easily, the fishes I’ve been eating are slowly losing appeal. My calorie counter says I’m getting 1000cal/day as an average. I think I eat in a feast/famine mode unconsciously, some days I can’t get to 1000 and others I’m above 1500. I’m 5’4/128lb/female and put on muscle just by looking at a bench press. I crossfit 5x/week, traditional jiujitsu 1-2x/week, dance class1x/week, and run 2-3x/week. I was a track and field athlete in college and I don’t think the need to be busy ever left.
I want to do competitive events soon and worry that I’ll need to increase my calories and not be able to get there. It seems I can up my protein or fat, but not both at the same time. I’m looking to do some competitive jiujitsu/fighting tournaments and also like to run a few 5ks. If I start to have problems with fat vs protein, is there one that I should pick over another or should I just focus on getting enough calories in general? Are there any recommended supplements I can take until I get this part of my diet hashed out, which I think will be a few more months at best?
Richard Nikoley says
Thanks for the shout out to Free the Animal on topic six.
And great series, by the way.
Robb Wolf says
keep up the great work!
Thanks for hitting my question this week. Perhaps I framed it poorly, though, or perhaps it’s just a dumb question to pose to personal trainers with motivated clients. I was thinking more along the lines of a phased plan steering people towards an ultimate goal. DDP does something similar to this in his YRG eating plan where he starts by getting people to abandon white flour and sugar, and refined foods, then moves to a gluten and dairy free version of the same thing, and then finally to an all organic food-combining version of the same thing with juicing. Something along those lines.
As an example, from a personal standpoint, I couldn’t care less about the paleo versus new world arguments, or which foods “Grok” ate, etc, I care about performance and, mainly, GI issues. I think a straight up “lo carb” Atkins approach where you eat whatever you can stuff in your gob as long as it’s not carby seems absurd to me. Half a pound of bacon tossed in a blender with a container of sour cream and a can of tuna and lo-fat cheese != a healthy mean IMNSHO. On the other hand, a more “Meat, Leaves and Berries” approach makes much more sense to me, so I tend to follow that approach with whole grains on occasion. This tends to work well, generally, but I still have occasional GI issues that I can’t trace back to anything in particular.
I recently tried to follow a more “Paleo” approach to my diet and changed things up fairly drastically, and it was a disaster from a GI perspective. I couldn’t say exactly which addition to my diet was the real killer, but if I had to guess it was coconut oil and/or milk or possibly upping olive oil consumption. I guess the real takeaway for me is that too much fiddling within a small time frame is a bad idea, and that maybe “good enough” is good enough. Maybe egg whites with a few yolks and sausage or bacon or ground beef with veggies and fruit for breakfast is good enough, and salad with (even perhaps non-paleo) dressing and chicken for lunch is good enough. Maybe dried fruit and nuts is a good snack, and maybe burger patties with mayo and catsup with a huge pile of veggies is good enough for dinner. I think I was reaching for how do your clients make the transition from eating, say, 70 percent to 90+ percent, and I think what I’m hearing is that many don’t and perhaps don’t need to.
In any case, thanks again for hitting my question, and sorry for rambling.
William McA says
I am a little confused about the So Delicious coconut milk. The nutrition label says that it contains 80 calories in 1 cup, but I thought most coconut milk was 550 calories in one cup?
Robb Wolf says
Labels and contents vary.
I really enjoy your podcast. It is very informative. You mention that one of the reasons you recommend fish oil is to compensate for omega 6-omega 3 imbalance typical of an American diet. I think you suggested that if your diet is “dialed in” then you won’t need as much fish oil. I currently take 7.2 grams of omega 3’s daily. I follow a 95% “dialed in” paleo diet. Should I take less fish oil or continue with 7.2 grams? Thanks. Tim
It would be interesting if you had a conversation with Lyle McDonald and made him look at grains differently. He is been very anti-paleo with his comments on his forum re Free the Animal.
“when Paleo cultists attack!
Cuz remember, science is only valid when it supports your preconceived beliefs. Like the paleo guys who like one of the researchers but not the other, becaue the one is anti-saturated fat. Which the cultists know is good in absolute terms. Because a dentist 50 years ago said so.
Discussions on Free the Animal:
The info on transglutinamase is very interesting. Will go and re-read the Double-edged sword of grain consumption (forgot the exact title) by Cordain.
Robb Wolf says
someone needs to remind Lyle that science does not mean “agreement”. Physicists bicker over the very structure of the universe…Lyle seems to be feeling besieged by a Meme that is better than his own.
Patrick Walsh says
Loving these podcasts as well. Thanks for taking the time to put them out.
I have a question for you that I haven’t been able to find a good answer to.
My 59 year old father suffers from atrial fibrillation. He is currently taking 81 mg of asprin, 100mg of flecainide twice a day, and 0.25mg of digioxin once a day. He is in good shape, 6″1′ and 175 pounds. His exercise consists of walking, push-ups and sit-ups because his doc told him to keep his heart rate below 140 bps. I’ve been trying to get him into oly-lifting and power lifting.
His diet is far from paleo and looks something like:
breakfast: skim milk with cereal, glass of juice
lunch: whole weat sandwitch
dinner: meat, veggies and some starch.
So my question:
Are there any studies that indicate that a paleo diet would help him with his atrial fibrillation? I saw something stating that subclinical hyperthyroidism is related to gluten sensitivity, and hyperthyroidism is a common cause of AF. Any other info out there for me to help convince him to give paleo a try to help him out with his ticker?
Robb Wolf says
Interesting stuff indeed:
So, yea, I think a gluten free paleo diet could be HUGE. Hopefully he has a doc who is willing to think, learn a d work a little on this to support him if he wants to tinker. It;s easy to poo-poo the whole paleo thing as pseudo-science but it affects a huge number of issues. And again, what condition will NOT benefit from generally being healthier?
Neal W. says
Robb, thanks so much for answering my question. I didn’t mean to say that I am some perfectly rational dude or whatever, but I was actually think of a hypothetical perfectly rational person. So, what would a hypothetical perfectly rational person, who is a nutrition non-expert, find as sufficuent justification for the contrarian paleo position?
I agree with your answers, and would pay to see/hear/read you try and persuade a McDonald or Aragon about any underlying pathologies that occur from consumption of grains and dairy.
I have a new question prompted by your discussion of thyroid and broccoli. Is there any food that one couldn’t find a problem with?
Robb Wolf says
Sometimes trying something new has nothing to do with rationality and everything to do with simply being curious and exploring. I think keeping some rationality and being objective about outcomes is good but occasionally the contrarian approach is a nice place to simply look around.
Mcdonald/Aragon are very sharp, successful individuals but I get this sense that Lyle thinks everyone besides himself is an idiot…fine by me. Their approaches can:
1-Get people big and strong.
2-Get people lean.
But the approaches I recommend can do the same while also improving a host of issues ranging from Type 1 diabetes to RA to digestive problems. The standard grain based approach can not/does not. This is my same issue with Barry Sears telling people they are better off weighing and measuring Ding-dongs and vs. simply eating a steak and a salad…it’s just preposterous. But again, this is all easy stuff for folks to simply tinker with and see how it all plays out.
A food that poses no problem? there are tradeoffs with everything and potential problems that run a remarkable spectrum from allergy to autoimmunity. this is an “over drinks” question as it get’s so damn obscure all we end up doing is confusing people (and creating a ton of similarly difficult to answer questions!) If you just run with “local, seasonal” you fix a ton of issues all at once.
Jeff A says
Robb, have you looked into or have any knowledge or perspective on the Gut and Psychology Syndrome? Most specifically the book by Natasha Campbell-McBride? Having read her book and doing much research on my own (a autistic family member) it parallels with a pretty close paleo diet with more emphasis on healing the gut. A great read and there is also a dvd. Would love to hear your thoughts on it. Also, your thoughts on autism and the paleo diet.
Robb Wolf says
Have not read it but it makes sense.
I have been following the paleo diet 90% for almost 4months, with some very good results. However the one issue I have has to do with IBS constipation, which I have used many diff remedies for (all natural) over the years with inconsistent success. I have been off milk producst for years, and now since paleo are off grains, legumes, sugar (except for 85% choc) and nuts (except for a lara bar a day). Can you give me any suggestions on how to keep BM moving more completely. Thanks for all your fantastic podcasts.
Robb Wolf says
Lot’s of factors Here. Give me 5 days of food, sleep, training and dhow you are feeling. Stress can be a MAJOR factor.
robb, you are so great in getting back to me. I follow the paleo and primal blue print. I weigh and measure my food for the most part, keeping carbs around 100g’s a day except when excercising when i have yams or sweet potatoes afer with protein. I eat high % of fats (avocado, olive oil, coconut oil, omega 3’s) prob around 1/2 of my total calories. Since i heard your podcast re nuts and how closely the mimic legumes I have drastically reduced them to lara bars only. I meditate every morning and take GABA and 5 HTP for sleep and some seratonin boost. I take vitamins, BCAA’s before and after working out, and L-glutamine along with probiotics and digestive enzymes.
See what you think about this …..i am anxious for some input and ideas. I used to take a lot of slouble fiber (grapefruit pectin) but stopped that since paleo.
Robb Wolf says
how is your stress level? Sleep quality? Food seems dialed…
Robb, you are awesome. The podcasts are great. One comment in reference to the anabolic effect of insulin; insulin is obviously an anabolic hormone, but where it can become quite relevant in terms of exercise adaptation is its role in activating the Akt/PKB pathway thereby influencing the downstream effectors for translation initiation and thus protein synthesis. While this, in and of itself, is certainly not justification for a cheat day or higher carb consumption, I believe it does justify specific attention to post workout nutrition. In most instances, especially those who are looking to add or even maintain muscle mass, easily digestible protein and some added carbohydrate is a potent activator of mTOR and mitigates the activation of AMPK. While BCAA’s (specifically leucine) do increase activation, the effect appears to be much stronger in the presence of a small amount of insulin. Laying down new protein is an important training adaptation, whether you are looking to get “70’s big” or lean. This may be even more relevant in CF style workouts that tend to encourage a more oxidative adaptation.
So, while not eating after training, as I’ve heard others suggest before, may maintain a window of insulin sensitivity, in the absence of significant metabolic disease, it doesn’t appear to outweigh the benefits of improving the cellular energy state and thus facilitating the adaptation (anabolic) effect of your training efforts.
(Incidentally, as you likely know, these same signaling factors support your take that strength, power and speed focused training should be performed separately from any metcon or oxidative type of training to avoid inhibitory signaling if you really want to get strong, powerful and fast.)
Anyway, just a few things to marinate on. Cheers.
Robb Wolf says
Great stuff…My understanding is that protein is sufficient for muscle gain as it provides both raw materials and sufficient insulin. It’s my understanding that carbs only accelerate glycogen repletion…thoughts?
Been following you for a few weeks, good stuff man! We just recently opened a crossfit gym in South Florida (Estero) and got turned onto paleo diet about 4 months ago. It was in easy transition from my zone set-up diet before and wanted to confirm the milk/insulin serious growth factor theory. Was consuming roughly 2,800 – 3,400 calories/day paleo style maintaining 173lbs. @ 5%bf doing metcon style workouts 5 times per week. I’m 26, 5’7″ and grow muscle like a weed. Was happy not being bulky until my partners pushed me to start doing heavy olympic lifts 2-3 times/week and only 1 metcon. I kept my diet the same but added (I know) 1/2gal. natural ice cream and peanut butter (gluten free) to my diet. I would eat 1/4 gal. IC one night and the following morning eat the rest, then the next day I would eat a whole jar of peanut butter. I would do this to alter my insulin spikes and not turn diabetic hopefully! I added roughly an additional 2,500 cals. daily to my diet. I shot up to 189lbs. in 4 wks. with a bf of 9%. Recently cleaned up and removed IC and peanut butter and tightened back up and dropped 4lbs. in a week. I know my case is extreme but the dairy works and I’ve noticed with varying intakes to morning, night, or after a workout, along with varying workout times (metcons always early in the day, while all heavy lifting is in the evening) I saw the best results from my body yet. Keep up the research man and I will gladly test any dairy theory’s that you arrive to in the future.
Wanting to know your thoughts about sex drive. My fiance has had poor sex drive for a few years since going on the pill. We’ve changed pills six or seven times before saying f-it and finally found TCOYF (fertility awareness method). She’s been off the pill for 3 or so months now and she’s been completely stressed (buying a home, working full time, going to school in the evenings, planing a wedding etc. etc.). Now that we at least sleep at the new house, we’re able to start working on preparing paleo style meals and are still working on getting all of our shit where it needs to go and into a routine. My question is are there specific things we can do to help bring her sex drive back (something we both want, not just me)? Does this suggest a vitamin/mineral deficiency, or anything of that nature? We believe she has a mild gluten reaction and she sometimes breaks out in rashes on her arm or has an inflamed upper lip/mouth area. We contribute this to grains/stress. We’re working on bringing our stress levels down and sleep/primal eating levels up. If there are any other specific items you can suggest, we’d appreciate your input. Thanks for what you do!
Robb Wolf says
STRESS kills sex drive in females. Evolutionarily it makes sense. Stress means a bad time to have kids. Get the food dialed, manage stress as best you can.
go on vacation.
What do you think of Dr Lonnie Lowery? He used to seem completely legit to me. He’s not paleo but still suggesting high protein, good fats, decent carb choices (emphasizing beans, etc), good bodybuilder advice. But his most recent article for T-nation, “Seven things you need to know about fats”, has got me wondering. Olive oil CAN’T be turned into a trans-fat? Diet doesn’t effect cholesterol? Bullshit?
Also, what about problem area strategies for things like insulin, cortisol, GH, etc for the podcasts. Just simple stuff, e.g insulin, drop the carbs/pwo-carbs, cinnamon, fish oil, etc.???
Thanks and best of luck for 2010,
Great work on the podcasts Andy and Robb!
– what’s the deal with Agave syrup? acceptable in small portions?
_There has been a lot of talk about sleep lately, I work night shift so I sleep during the day. I sleep well and get a full 7.5-8 hours. Is sleeping 8 hours during the day okay for your body or night time sleep the only “good” sleep?
Robb Wolf says
Plutonium is acceptable in “small” amounts! It’s all up to you but agave is 100% fructose. Stick with basic table sugar if you want to sweeten something.
Day sleep is never as good as night sleep. It’s just not…but if you have shift work you just need to do your best.
Kyle S. says
With all this talk of ghee and butter, I found a site that sells grassfed ghee (they also have flavored ghee!). Happy New Year everyone! http://www.pureindianfoods.com/
Thank you so much for putting these podcasts together – i referenced them a lot and direct my clients to listen to them as essential part of their program to live healthier lives.
I’m loving your podcasts. Anyway quick question, You mentioned that leafy greens such as brussels sprouts, kale, and cabbage contain a thiamin inhibitor. Would cooking negate this anti nutrient enzyme? and can you elaborate on that to some degree?
Robb Wolf says
It’s thyroid, not thiamin. Do some google searching on cruciferous veggies and thyroid. It gets geeky.
Donavan Taylor says
Grass fed = Low fat?
Chad Gardner says
Hey Robb & Andy
Thanks again for the great podcast! I listen every week! I had a recent conversation with a friend about the traditional Japanese diet, which is about 80% rice and flour. Basically a carb heavy diet and yet they are healthier and longer lived then westerners. This is almost a complete contradiction to the paleo diet. Any chance you can comment on why this is so.
Robb Wolf says
Japanese do NOT live that long…Okinawans, yes. Ask your friend about the rate of stroke in the Japanese…we might look at this in a future podcast.
Robb and Andy,
My wife is finally coming around to the Paleo diet that I’ve been suggesting she join me on. The first step she’s been willing to take has been to use fish oil in her diet (otherwise usually built flaming hot cheetos, sandwiches and other assorted glutenous staples for her and tends to eat once a day in the evening). I offer to make her breakfast in the morning before we leave for work but she almost always declines and had coffee and excedrin(two in the morning and throughout the day as needed). She is 5’10”, 106 lbs- she could eat the kitchen sink if she wanted to and not gain an ounce. But the biggest problem with this and why I’ve been leaning on her to change her diet is because of the physical pains she’s suffering: severe uterine dysfunction (fibroid, heavy heavy bleeding, brutal cramping), crazy blood pressure, insanely poor sleep (even with ZMA [now sports brand]- we’re thinking NatCalm next?), intermittent depression, migraines, chronic back pain (maybe tied in to the uterine dysfunction?) and non-existent sex drive (stress from grad school, planning a wedding and we’re about to close on a house [hiya D]. her gyno prescribed a birth control that was supposed to help with the pains associated with menses but after having her experienced her period 3 and a half weeks after this prescription and noticing no relief and then another cycle TWO WEEKS later, she stopped taking it, opting to endure the lesser of two evils. she has had normal cycles so it doesnt seem likely that the birth control pills (BCPs) would be breaking down a thicker uterian lining that would be the cause of the heavier bleeding, right? Also, getting to her to go to the doctor is worse than trying to get the hadron collider to operate at 100% capacity… someone from the future may be sabotaging my efforts as well, damn…
two weeks ago she started taking NatureMade Fish Oil 1200mg (720mg of EPA per 2 capsule serving). her best friend recommended it (I’m on CLO) and suggested she take 6 capsules since that’s what she takes and they’re of comparable dimensions. i’ve read the minutes from a seminar you gave that recommended .5g for a healthy person and 1g per the not so. I’ve leaned on her about this but not hard enough, I suppose. Andy mentioned in the last podcast that being the boyfriend/fiance/husband puts you in the “what do you know?” position with our significant others, so yeah.
If I somehow convince her to take the dosage of fish oil would she experience even heavier bleeding during menses akin to the guy who cut himself shaving and experienced hemophilia? is the standard ZMA dosing appropriate for sleep or is it even helping considering her diet isnt in order? is it better for her to stay off of the BCPs and focus on her diet to regulate the natural hormone levels in the body or to take them (seems obvious, but the answer coming from you would be better than the words from my mouth or her doc experimenting with her body with exogenous hormones). is a gluten free diet a better segue into convincing her to change or is a full on paleo approach the path to take?
i hope you can help.
Robb Wolf says
This is pretty common with skinny chicks who are “able to eat anything”. We only associate health problems with obesity and this is a BIG mistake. If she is blonde she is at exceptionally higher risk of several nasty conditions (I can talk about this in a podcast…some genetics involved here). I don;t know how to beg or cajole her more other than her condition will only worsen if she does not get a handle on it. If she would get aggressive she could be symptom free in a few months. Fish oil should make her menses easier, not worse. Keep me posted.
Would it be possible to note the times of the start of each topic. for example:
1. Ketogenic diets & migraines – 0:00
2. Peskin’s thoughts on fish oil – 8:00
3. Cheat meals & carb loading – 15:45
4. Moving folks to a perfect paleo diet – 19:00
5. Contrarian view of paleo diets – 26:00
6. Butter & autoimmune issues / Why don’t all folks do well on a low carb approach? – 35:00
7. Paleo diet & mass gain for 21 year-old male – 41:50
8. Paleo diet & fertility – 46:00
9. Junk food cravings during period – 51:00
10. Elderly folks gaining weight – 53:50
11. MREs – 58:00
12. Diet prep for ranger school – 59:50
13. Huntington Disease / Broccoli & Thyroid function / Skin rashes /Alkaline foods / Why lean meats? – 102:23
The reason I ask is some topics, like migraines, don’t apply to me, while others do. thanks
Robb Wolf says
I’ll look at this but we are running this on a skeleton crew and the purpose to some degree was for this project to decrease my workload. I’m trying to reach more folks in less time vs trying to keep on top of what is over 800 emails per day. I completely understand this would make things easier to make relevant for folks but we need to find a way to make it time efficient.
My take is…though insulin may just be playing a permissive role in protein synthesis, it appears that for a “maximal” protein synthetic response, the combination of EAA, energy availability and insulin are the most potent elixir. In combination they result in both increased translation initiation and translation elongation.
Adding glucose to AA results in a greater response than AA alone, and the EAA+CHO mixture potentiates the anabolic effect of resistance exercise. Basically, you are providing optimal substrate at a time (immediately post workout) when the synthetic machinery is already activated, augmenting the anabolic effect.
I don’t know that the exact mechanism(s) has been elucidated, and it’s likely synergistic, but AA and insulin signaling converge at mTOR, therefore it is possible that mTOR integrates these signals thereby enhancing the response. Insulin may also stimulate muscle blood flow to enhance AA delivery. Since insulin is such a potent inhibitor of protein breakdown and you couple that with the signaling effect, a transient increase in serum insulin post exercise likely enhances and prolongs the protein synthetic effect of AA.
Additionally, digestion rate is an independent factor effecting protein synthesis, and while I’m not a fan of liquid food at any other time either, the immediate post workout window may justify it’s utilization to enhance adaptation and recovery. A hydrosylate source, versus an intact protein, is more quickly digested and absorbed, resulting in greater postprandial AA availability. The subsequent elevation in insulin reduces protein breakdown and, with an added resistance exercise stimulus, will facilitate increased protein synthesis. A rapidly digested food source will also quickly improve the cellular energy state and reduce or shut down the catabolic AMPK and allow downstream signaling to mTOR.
I don’t believe it necessitates a huge bolus of CHO at all (especially with a hydrosylate), just enough to stoke all the fires and facilitate the greatest response. Anyway, I don’t mean to go on and on. I would definitely be interested to hear your take. I dig this stuff.
Robb Wolf says
I dig it, especially finding the minimalist CHO dose that gives optimum return on investment. Many of the folks following OPT’s program found a nice increase in muscle mass with the minimalist CHO+PRO PWO meal.
I tend to be VERY type A and extreme so the metered approach has been a tough lesson for me. I have historically overdone the CHO side with chubbaliscious results.
We may see some kind of a sliding scale here:
Assuming “good” insulin sensitivity we can get solid muscle gains from
1-A liquid protein only PWO (substrate and insulin signaling)
2-Possibly better muscle gain from a minimalist CHO+PRO
There are also some non-insulin growth pathways associated with EPA and the MAPK pathways…need to think about how those two might overlap.
If you ever want to do a combo article, either for here or the Performance Menu let me know.
Love the podcasts, keep up the great work!
I was cruising the web for high protein low cal keto diets and found this abstract
Just more interesting benefits as “non anecedotal evidence” for your side especially for the the low carb camp!
Robb Wolf says
Nice find, thanks man!
Chris P. says
I’m reading Good Calories, Bad Calories and there is a section about cultures who eat rice but also tend to do it for economical reasons (i.e. that’s all that they can afford) and tend to balance sub-par diets with hard work and being way more physically active. I’d be interested to hear more about this in a podcast though.
Thank you very much. If this topic makes it as a pod cast question I would appreciate a more in-depth approach. I’m beginning to to feel a little like the dad from Lorenzo’s Oil and way behind on my science and am on the race to catch up before something worse happens. If this doesnt make the cut as a pod cast query then I’d be glad to pay for a private consultation, just let me know which would be more appropriate.
Robb Wolf says
We podcasts are about 3 weeks behind questions coming in, we will very likely hit this but it will not be for 3-4 weeks. Contact Chrissy via the contact form on this site if you would like to do a consult.
Robb, I just started Paleo about a week ago. Up until then, I was on a measured Zone and then went unmeasured for most of the year. I just wanted to know if it is typical to feel kind of crappy for the first few days on Paleo. I feel like I’m starving most of the day, and my food intake has increased since leaving the zone. I realize that my metabolism is probably in high gear since the processed food has left my diet, but this is affecting my workouts as well. I’m doing a “strength based CF program”. It’s a linear progression heavy lift then a short to medium length WOD. Any advice you could offer is greatly appreciated. I’m a big fan of your site. Thanks
Robb Wolf says
Check this out:
You may need to up the fat AND may just feel crappy for a few days. Keep me posted!
Absolutely. That would be great. I believe you have my email address from here…email me any time.
Rob, this is such a fantastic site, I love it!. Sleep is pretty good, keep to good sleep hygene, and stress is high but the meditation helps. I have been using 2 tablespoons of mineral oil at PM and AM and this helps. Do you think this is okay or contraindicated, any problem with daily use for a bit?
Thanks for your input.
Robb Wolf says
I have a sneaky suspicion it;s more stress than anything. NOT a fan of the mineral oil! Olive oil or anything like that seems preferable. Alovera juice also but the stress/sleep dealio is BIG.
Keep me posted.
Hey Robb- loving the podcast, great work. Been a long time lurker and sponge here and this is one neuroscience postdoc who digs your pseudo-science- keep it up!
Super interesting take on PWO food from Sage! This is such a tough area that I’ve heard excellent physiological arguments for on both sides. Devany’s hypothesis that any PWO nutrition blunts GH release is compelling, but I think (?) unproven/undocumented. Skipping it certainly does wonders for leaning out and getting ripped body comp, but not so great for us terminally tall/lean dudes that have trouble putting on muscle.
**So the question to Sage/Robb- What would be the ingredients of an ideal liquid food to use in the PWO window with a combo of EAA/CHO? I would definitely be into giving this a shot. Thanks!
Love the podcasts. I never thought I’d look forward to Tuesdays so effin much. Thanks for all your hard work, guys.
If the following questions have already been answered, hopefully someone will point me in the right direction.
I bought a big bottle of fish oil…I’m not sure what to do next. I’m a bigger gal and a paleo newbie. How much should I be taking? Is it best to take it all at once? In the morning? Or is it better to take it all throughout the day? WITH meals?
Robb Wolf says
Take with meals and likely more along 3-4 EACH meal. Keep in mind, that fish oil is something missing from our food, we need to replace it.
i know you’ve touched on milk and autoimmune issues/acne a few times, and that grass fed milk is better, but could you clarify this
does milk being grass-fed/pasteured eliminate or reduce autoimmune issues/acne or is just healthier b/c it has more omega3s but it will still present with those problems in some ppl.
Ricky H says
Along with paleo, do you have any advice for someone with what I believe to be a highatal hernia? I have been taking a Prilosec every morning for the past five years or so and understand that I have to get off that stuff. When I don’t take it, I get bad heartburn feeling and vomit especially during excercise or even gag while brushing my teeth. My doctor says as long as the prilosec helps not to worry but I hear there is a downside to taking it too? My wife recently read that an apple every morning would help? any thoughts?
I’ve seen a few comments about cultures and eating rice. I didn’t believe that giving up rice was necessary until I got it completely out of my system. This meant not visiting my mom for a couple months as she always forces it on me.
I used to eat rice three times a day. It was cheap, I had a 10cup rice cooker that played music, and 50lb bag of rice. But when family members started coming down with cancers, diabetes, and other diseases, I tried Paleo. It took a couple months of the on/off thing. Then I went a solid month without it. It is worth stopping the excuses and going through the struggle. I don’t like to demonize food, but if I were to call any food the devil it would be white rice. You do not need to eat it to live, really, you don’t. If you’re having a hard time eliminating grains, I feel for you, but it is totally worth the effort.
Robb Wolf says
And that’s been my gig…just give it a shot and see. Most folks notice a pretty remarkable difference. I do fine on a few meals of rice (sushi binge for example) but string several together and I start getting digestive problems.
Mathieu Lalonde says
Re: PWO Meal
An Oral Essential Amino Acid-Carbohydrate Supplement Enhances Muscle Protein Anabolism After Resistance Exercise. Journal of Applied Physiology, 2000, 88, 386–392.
6 subjects (3 men, 3 women) performed resistance exercise (leg press 10×8, leg extension 8×8 @ 80% 1RM with 2 min rest between sets) and were given either a pwo drink consisting of 6 grams of essential amino acids (EAA) and 35 grams of sucrose (table sugar, CHO) dissolved in 500mL of distilled water or a placebo (artificially flavored drink sweetened with aspartame). The researchers analyzed protein synthesis after 1h and 3h in both the groups. Analysis included femoral arterial and venous blood samples and biopsies (for protein synthesis), leg blood flow, as well as arterial insulin concentration. The researchers found no difference in protein synthesis between the groups that consumed the EAA/CHO drink 1h or 3h after resistance exercise. Some subjects were given a placebo at time=1h and then the EAA/CHO drink at time=3h. Protein synthesis only reached high levels at the 3 h mark in this case. Interestingly, the aspartame in the placebo drink did cause a small (barely significant) increase in arterial insulin and phenylalanine concentration.
The fact that no difference was seen between 1h and 3h throws a wrench in the whole post workout feeding window. It is well known that muscle fractional synthetic rate remains elevated for 48 hours after a bout of heavy resistance exercise. The PWO meal may merely be condensing the protein synthesis to a shorter time frame (i.e. completion in a few hours as opposed to 48h). A similar effect has been observed with glycogen repletion. Consuming carbohydrate post workout will accelerate glycogen repletion. For at least 12 hours PWO, the muscle glycogen of a subject that has consumed a PWO CHO drink will be higher than that of a subject that did not consume the drink. However, past the 12 hour mark, the glycogen levels of both subjects are the same. The drink merely serves to accelerate the glycogen repletion process and is not necessary if the next workout will not occur until the next day.
Although PWO meals of protein and carbohydrate do increase the rate of protein synthesis and muscle glycogen repletion, they do so at a cost of insulin sensitivity and reduced growth hormone production. If you are in a competition setting, go ahead and use PWO meals to your advantage. Otherwise, skip them and reap the full benefits of your training.
I came across this article
He things Gary Taubes is a BS’er
I was wondering what your thoughts are on that.
Robb Wolf says
I’ll tackle that in the podcast…good stuff there!
Geoff Aucoin says
So y’all have been to the Calgary Farmer’s Market? No? Oh. Then you haven’t got a clue what you’re talkin’ about!
I got my questions answered this time, cool. About HD, I got in touch with this woman now. Thanks a million.
About broccoli and thyroid. I googled a little. Goitrogens seem to exist in strawberries, spinach, peanuts, soy and other foods – they are not just in cruciferous vegetables. It seems like cooking might beneficial and destroy the substance or enzyme or whatever. Although the time seems to vary between “you just need to steam them briefly” to “you need to cook them for 30 minutes”. Like you said Robb, it’s probably a good thing to rotate the veggies or whatever you eat.
About skin rashes. Kindergarten needs a doctor’s certificate before they give gluten free food. So I hope the doctor is nice to me. Will keep you posted about the progress.
About alkaline foods. Maybe seasonal is the wrong word. I meant that fruits were only available in the summer. Don’t know about the veggies. So that’s why I speculated about they were net acid yielding the other three seasons. But I’ll google it.
About lean meats. I thought toxins was the big thing, but obviously not. Didn’t think about the omega balance. But I still think “lean” is somewhat confusing for average Joe.
quick question about IF. I know you’re no longer such a huge fan of it (lifestyle choices, dialing in diet,etc), but for some reason I’m NEVER hungry before 11am….I end up doing a semi 16/8 anyways. Is this bad? If I end up having to scarf down food in the morning I’ll do it, but it’s forced. Is there something wrong with me? I’m a student, regular schedule, Xfit 3-4x a week. 3 Big meals a day, Paleo + full fat dairy (moderate).
Robb Wolf says
I’m actually a huge fan of IF, but the results have been pretty variable for the folks I’ve worked with. I think CF may be too much intensity too often to work well with IF. Add to this the variable schedules of police/mil/fire and I have seen some disastrous results. I think that 16hr fast is money…so long as we see solid body-comp, performance and sense of well being. I think IF is a very powerful tool but in an excessive volume/intensity program with no “off season” I’m not sure how good of a fit it is. Will be looking at this more in the coming months.
Your crystal ball is on target man re my IBS . Saw my chiropractor yesterday as I pulled a muscle in my back doing kettlebell wo and found my hips were off 1 1/2 ” which is huge for me and no doubt part of my trouble. Will take you advice re olive oil over mineral, rest, sleep etc.
Thanks for you wise input.
Thanks for the info Mat- After thinking about PWO nutrition myself for the past few days, I tend to agree with your conclusion. Like everything else in biology- it’s about trade-offs: A little bit of increased protein synthesis and glycogen replenishment vs. decreased insulin sensitivity and decreased GH release.
Robb- at the bottom of your FAQ you mention putting together an advanced topics program for the geeks- I would be super interested in this as I’m sure others would. Maybe you can put that as #147 on your to-do list ha.
Seriously though, I find it crazy that I studied metabolic biochemistry in grad school with a man who is possibly THE living authority on mitochondria and when I talked with him about the benefits paleolithic nutrition and ketogenic eating, he basically waved his hand at me and took a bite of his bagel.
Ricky H says
Any thoughts on the prilosec question I posted yesterday? Thanks.
Robb Wolf says
Are you 100% grain/dairy free? We have seen tremendous improvement with acid reflux, even in hiatal hernias with paleo.
Anthony White says
In this podcast, you talk about a therapeutic dose for fish oil and backing people back off it, particularly if they are on mainly grass-fed meat and otherwise clean.
I’m 200 pounds and about 12 percent fat, and have been following the prescription of 1 gram fish-oil per pound bodyweight (1g containing 180mg EPA, 120mg DHA). I’m pure paleo for about four months, barely even a cheat meal a fortnight. Even before I was paleo I was pretty clean by non-paleo standards, effectively a paleo plus wholegrains and some diary. I’m in New Zealand, so all my sheep and beef meat is grass-fed, eat fresh fish a couple times a week, a can of tuna or salmon every day. Eggs – have never found omega 3 enriched in New Zealand. Nuts are mostly walnuts and macadamia.
Should I still be taking 20 fish-oil pills per day? At what point to you back people away from the Rx?
Robb Wolf says
given your GF meat you may not need to supplement much, i at all. I would titrate down perhaps 5 caps per 2 weeks and see how you do at each level. An aracidonic acid EPA test could offer some insight here as well.
Ricky H says
I am in the early stages of going grain/dairy free. 2 weeks in now. I guess what I’m asking is how long to feel relief or if there are any ideas as to things I can do to help with speeding up the transition to zero prilosec. Like yesterday, I didn’t take it in the am for the first time in years but by midnight I had to give in and pop the pill. Thanks again for the help.
Robb Wolf says
I really do not know. You may need to titrate down instead of going off all together. I have no solid ideas on this other than you should be able to at the very least decrease your dosage, but that to remains to be seen.
Steve Smith says
Robb and Sage –
I would also love to hear or read recommendations for PWO meal suggestions and research. I would like to put on about 10-15 lbs this year (6’1″/~170lbs currently). I eat pretty much paleo with a glass of milk 2-4x a week. PWO, I try to have 2-3 oz of turkey or roast beef along with a piece of fruit and/or a glass of whole milk… I’ve been trying to do this for the past few months and haven’t really seen any weight gain. Then again, the crossfit gym was biased to metcon’ish’ workouts. The programming is changing this year with a CFSB WOD 3x a week. I’m excited to see how this works out.
It seems that OPT recommends either 40/40g pro/cho after workout or 40/25 (male 8-12% bf) depending on the type of workout. That’s a lot of protein to put down.
Thanks for the great poscasts.
Anthony White says
Thanks for your reply above. I guess the follow up question is, “What might the potential negatives of too much fish oil be?”
I hope your partner comes round to Paleo / fish oil.
The Zone diet plus paleo food choices plus fish oil absolutely blitzed my PMS, and severe menstrual pain (we’re talking intense pain that causes vomitting).
However I have primary dysmenorrhoea (not secondary – linked with fibroids etc). I do know many women for whom fish oil made a massive difference.
I take about 2000mg per day DHA+EPA.
It made absolutely no difference to the heaviness of bleeding but does give that bright red blood that naturopaths and Chinese practitioners seem to focus on as a good sign! Not the dark red clotty type (sorry to be so graphic!)
Paleo actually reversed in between spotting for me and gave more consistant relief from PMS. Exercise too helps – regular intense exercise adds to reduced menstrual pain.
here is a great testimonial from the paleo diet website:
Jason A. says
I’ve got a friend of mine with Coeliac’s disease, along with a bunch of other grain allergies. To my knowledge, she’s gone off of grains completely, and I’ve given her this website to help her get started.
However, she’s looking to get back into shape, and trying to find a protein bar to use that won’t interfere with her allergies/intolerance.
I’ve hooked her up with the Paleo Brands website, but she’s looking for something with 20+ grams per bar, and hoping to find something that’s readily available in stores (We’re in Canada, and cross-border shipping is killer).
Any advice you can give would be great.
Robb Wolf says
The Egg protein bar should fit the bill but I’d recommend that your friend eat no “fake foods” for several months. The Paleo Bar included.
Broccoli is a goitrogen. I’ve read that the more goitrogens we eat, the more iodine we need. Here is the question. Does this mean we can eat all the broccoli in the world each day and have a normal thyroid so long as we consume enough iodine to match? Or does this mean we have to eat broccoli in moderation and consume enough iodine to match?
Before I knew anything ever about the thyroid, I ate some broccoli once or thrice a week, never consumed fish or sea vegetables, and had no problems. But I consumed a ton of soymilk and soy protein concentrate and became iodine deficient and low thyroid. But when I counteracted this with Iodoral, a high potency iodine supplement, I still felt lousy, with slow speech, slow heart rate, and so forth. Iodoral is obviously not natural and according to Dr. Alan Gaby, the amount is based on a calculation error that overestimates the amount Japanese eat each day, about 13mg (13,000mcg) instead of the actual 500+/-mcg. It would be interesting to know whether one can consume as much soy or broccoli each day and try and add a bit more sea veg/fish to the diet. On a side note, I talked to the guy who runs soyinfocenter.com, and he said he consumes about two servings of soy per day and has never thought about iodine.
And Robb, I promise to cool down with the questions! I was just so excited that the Paleo diet seemed to match a great deal what I have researched about male pattern baldness. Thanks for bearing with me!!