I received an email from Nicholas Hahn last week in which he described his experience using a VERY low carb diet with a CrosFit template. His results are interesting and pretty impressive as he appears to run better on less than Zone levels of carb intake. Whooda-thunkt-it?
Some of the other benefits appear to be improved leanness and better insulin sensitivity. Long term it seems like throwing in more veggies might be good to maintain a net alkaline balance. is this the right Rx for everyone and every situation? No, obviously not, but it’s interesting how much adaptation there can be towards this lower carb approach.
Who might benefit from an approach like this? Anyone with insulin resistance. If you read Light’s Out and buy into the concepts they talk about in that book, perhaps everyone would benefit from a few months each year of ketogenic eating. Whatever the case, give this a read and kick this around: How effective are we when we live purposefully? If we know WHY we do something in training, nutrition or financial investing is that a BETTER or WORSE approach vs a random un-directed approach? When and where is a random, undirected approach appropriate?
From Nicholas:
Before starting a weighed and measured, Paleo (ala Loren Cordain) diet, I was between 240 and 245 lbs. Within a few months, I dropped to my current weight of 205 lbs at 6’4”. I’ve been doing CrossFit seriously for about 2.5 years and maintain a paleo diet, plus butter and the occasional cheese.
After reading Mat Lalonde’s post about his experience with a very low carbohydrate diet (VLC) and CrossFitting, I decided I would push the envelope a bit further. I had read Good Calories, Bad Calories and read about the controlled study involving Vilhjalmur Stefansson and his cohort on a meat-only diet for one year. That intrigued me enough to read his book on the subject Not By Bread Alone (http://tinyurl.com/yzcvwv5). Like Cordain, he recounted the high-fat, low-carbohydrate diets of various Native Americans and recounted his experience with the Inuit. Not only did the meat-only diet not cause scurvy, Stefansson’s cohort actually experienced improved health.
My experiment was simple. I strove to mimic Stefansson’s diet as closely as possible for the month of November. I ate only meat and eggs (which are meat by definition) with seasonings like salt, pepper and the like–nothing, though, that would contribute any carbohydrate or nutrients other than the meat did. I also ate a good amount of grass-fed tallow in order to ward off the dreaded rabbit starvation, which occurs when protein constitutes too much of one’s diet, and to get enough omega-3s. I naturally fell into an 18-20 hour intermittent fasting schedule, since it seems like I just never felt hungry. The common question is “How were your BMs?” They were fine. Daily, sometimes twice daily. The biggest concern with the diet is the acid-base balance, which Cordain talks about in the Paleo Diet. I haven’t heard of epidemics of osteoporosis in the Inuit, but we’re in the business of health optimization.
The only downside to the diet was the fact I couldn’t have red wine and other tasty foods. I felt no negative side-effects like headaches or lethargy, after the first couple of days, which typically accompany VLC diets. After my first time eating too much fat, I did have indigestion, however, I quickly realized where to cut the fat down.
I did three test WODs to see my change post-diet. Again, I am not a top-tier athlete by any means.
WOD Time (Paleo diet) Time (Ketogenic diet)
Annie (RX) 7:01 6:46
Helen (RX) 11:23 10:46
Christine (RX) 14:59 13:41
All the WODs were performed 2-3 weeks into the diet, which I timed to coincide with other people’s accounts of acclimation to VLC diets (cf. http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2). WODs in the longer domains felt difficult, but I continued to place in the range of the same people I had before the diet. In a few cases, I happened to place near the top of the gym.
As for strength, the lifts I tested were the back squat high, bar (275 lbs x 3 reps) and low bar (325 x 1), and the press (155 lbs). They did not move, but I had also not practiced those that month. I focused, instead, on gymnastic strength that month and I finally conquered the “big kids’ muscle-up” and was good enough to finish “Nasty Girls” as RX’d at the behest of Sage Burgener who was at our box doing a cert. I also got my first legit one-legged squats. Additionally, I tested my 1000m row and I PR’d at 3:12.5, which is down from 3:15.7 my previous time.
At least for some people, a VLC or ketogenic diet can not only help individuals feel better, but can allow them continued performance gains. At a minimum, I found that a zero carb diet didn’t inhibit performance, and even allowed gains. Personally, I visibly leaned out and lost 2 pounds in the space of a month. If the liver makes glycogen for recharging muscles and feeding the brain, many people probably don’t need to be eating so many carbohydrates—especially not the 162 grams/day I was eating on the Zone. We need to think about this in light of the deleterious effects of sugar in the longer term, which can lead to high oxidative levels and decreased insulin sensitivity. Fructose and glucose aren’t necessarily beneficial substances for our bodies—especially for athletes who may have pre-existing conditions.
I suspect a decreased need for sugar is especially true, if the athlete adheres to a WOD-ME-WOD template, since ME days likely don’t use much glycogen. The case may be different if working out 2+ times a day or competing in an endurance event. As Robb suggested to me, adding in some low Glycemic Load veggies would be a great way to shore up micronutrient intake and keep acid-base balance without adding too much carbohydrate. What I’ve come to realize is that the Zone, or Paleo, may be sufficient for fitness, but not necessary.
62 Comments
Interesting!
I’m interested to know more about what Nicholas ate… I know he said “meat,” but was it entirely muscle meats or did he include organ meats, marrow, etc. I know that those other bits are what add a lot of nutritional value to traditional paleo-style diets.
Oh, and that’s awesome! Great to see these kinds of improvements in the wild.
Great post! For the month of December, I am doing a little experiment as well. I have cut out all fruite to play around and see if it helps me lean out some. Thanks for sharing this experience!
Hey Robb,
Here’s a sticker that you can start providing to your paleo clients that aren’t that into Crossfitting
Bumper Sticker
Great post. I’d be interested to do some more reading on this and give it a shot in January.
Our ancesters more than likely operated on a ketogenic diet 10 months out of the year and only consumed veggies and fruit (sugar) in the fall. All the other time, they ate meat and fat and probably did their version of fasting…ie. lay around for a couple of days til they got hungry…and then they had to run very fast in a fasted state to catch their next meal or run very fast in a fasted state not to be eaten.
And there are no essential carbohydrates that the body needs…especially the carbs sucrose and fructose.
This lecture by Dr. Lustig, UCSF on Sugar should convince those that still like to eat their carbs and sugar to reconsider.
Great n-1 experiment. If you continue ketogenic, your times will improve even further?
Thanks for the report
Link to Dr. Lustig:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM
Robb, thanks for passing along the great info on ketogenic diets. I has some success leaning out with low carbs as well. I have also tried keeping meals in Zone proportions and I think its supposed performance enhancement is overstated. There is a scarcity of good information on ketosis on the net and I am eagerly awaiting your books (any updates on that?). I’m disappointed in the sudden shift to Zone on the CF site; I’m glad I was able to take the nutrition cert while you were still doing it.
AWESOME!! Great story!
Very interesting.
Robb, I know you’re probably already reading this but I found this quip from Stephan Guyenet’s blog (http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/) interesting in light of your recent attention to macronutrient quality vs qantity:
(emphasis mine)
Not a free pass for carbs, but interesting, non?
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2009/12/dr-rosedale-replies.html
Hey Robb,
I know it’s important to eat grassfed, grassfinished beef and pastured pork, but what’s the deal with chicken? Is organic chicken enough or should I be looking for something else? I can find lot’s of organic, free range chicken but they’re all supplemented with grain, especially in the winter.
I too have since cut out 95% of the carbs I used to eat, except for the occasional piece of carrot cake, Chipotle Burritos, and Ben and Jerry’s, I have noticed significant gains in performance. Crossfitting on and off since last year and on a regular basis since May. I was drinking GNC Mass-XXX, which is about 1000 calories in one serving and about 150 carbs. I felt lethargic during that time, even while crossfitting. I gradually went off it and have shaved off 2:30 on my Fran time, most recently posting a 4:35 earlier today and setting a new PR every time I do a new 1RM, 3RM, 5RM, etc. I have not lost any strength, I received dozens of comments about how much thinner I look, although I still manage to maintain my current weight of 170. I haven’t felt as sleepy or or fatigued as I used too either. Keep in mind, I am a Deck Watch Officer in the Navy and frequently stand watch from Midnight to around 5 or 6 in the morning. granted, I am usually dead tired by the end of that watch, but I don’t have to rely on coffee or other stimulants, like my peers who don’t exercise or eat healthy, to get through that watch since crossfitting and changing my diet and cutting carbs. AND I DON’T MEASURE MY FOOD INTO BLOCKS OR ZONES.
Oh, and I also DON’T eat a huge ass plate of ribs whenever I want like Tony Budding implied of all Paleo eaters in his interview with Dr. Sears.
Thanks for posting this Robb!
Would have loved to see some before/after blood work.
Looking to start following an M.E Blackbox template soon. Will be interesting to see what happens when I ditch the gallon of PWO sweet potatoes & see how this effects the performance. I don’t see it being an issue at all. They just taste so damn good I’m not sure I can give them up if I tried! Will probably toss in the coconut milk concoction instead and see where it takes me. Will get back with results sometime in the new year.
Just finished “Dangerous Grains” by James Braly and Ron Hoggan. Tons of great info in there! Especially the issue when people overload on calcium supplements & how this can very negatively effect bone loss. In my opinion you can tell they omitted the message they really want to send of “Everyone needs to take gluten out of their diets!!” most likely due to publishing reasons. Either way, good stuff.
Very interesting. I tried a similar approach last spring and had great success with it. I ate low carb (under 20-30 g per day) with a re-feed high carb day on the weekends. (In hindsight the re-feed days were not the best idea, I ended up eating too much junk.) I was super-strict with the low-carb thing for just over a month, and continued a less-strict version of the diet throughout the summer.
I made great strength gains, PR’ing on all my lifts, some by 10-15 pounds, and I was doing dead hang pull-ups (which I had been trying to get for a year) and unassited bar and ring dips, which I had never been able to do previously.
The most interesting aspect for me was my results in martial arts. After I became fat-adapted I had great endurance in judo class. We usually do hour and half classes and I ALWAYS had energy to spare and felt like I could have gone for hours more.
I don’t recall hitting any PR’s on CrossFit WODs, but I had switched to CF Football/Strength bias type workouts at that time and I don’t think I repeated any Girl/Hero type WODs that I had previously done.
I fell off the rails this fall, but I plan to get back on the low carb Paleo type diet and CF Football/Strength Bias WODs, starting today.
I’d also like to say thanks to Robb for providing this great website and the awesome podcasts. I’ve learned so much, and I really appreciate all the work you put into it.
Robb, This is off topic , but I have been thinking a lot about it lately. Perhaps this would be a good podcast question. With all the foods that are cut while doing a paleo/ gluten-free diet there must be a hierarchy of food choices. For example, i understand that gluten is forever a no-no. But how does dairy stack up to peanuts, corn, rice, protein mixes etc. Many of our clients are interested in doing paleo or zone, but they are reluctant to give up certain things i.e. peanut butter etc. Any thoughts?
Nate
My breakfasts are typically VLC and I rarely feel hungry during the day. In the past few weeks I’ve worked long days and have “accidentally” fasted 10-14 hr fasts and never skipped a beat at work. Not that I’d want to make this a regular thing, but I guess a high protein/fat, low carb approach can explain how I can not eat all day and still run circles around my co-workers and look better, too.
Very interesting indeed… tempts one to try. I’m curious: would taking a teaspoon of bicarb or some TUMS contribute to alkalinity?
Also, who’s up for starting a movement based on constantly varied diet for forging elite fitness? I’ll let you pick the title you address me by, so long as you capitalize it and I can foist my political views on you.
Me-thinks it’s time I tried a month long VLC diet experiment myself. Thanks for sharing.
Stephen
Hey robb! thanks for the post…this gets to a question I have been thinking about for a few weeks now…What about tyroid hormones?
I have read in NHE that long term vlc diets can hinder tyroid function and that they might actually result in lowering your metabolism and so imparing weight loss and performance (athletic and mental).
I have significantly reduced my carbs intake, I have been trying to do 14 days @30g, 2 days @unlimited + another 14days@ 30g, twice and I noticed that the second time I didn’t lose weight and I felt more tired.
I am now around 50/60 g a day and I feel good and my oly weightlifting is going well. I am afraid to go lower because I don’t want to mess with my tyroid! Is this concern legitimate?
This is a great piece.
My current situation seems to be that without a carb level of approx 1g/lb of bodyweight, my weight starts to drop and increasing fat intake doesn’t seem to help this.
My performance seems to be at it’s best at a higher bodyweight than it is now (I naturally seem to run at 9st7lbs, but my performance is much better at 10st+).
So, the big question for someone like me is… Do I keep running at the higher carb level as presumably I need the Insulin from this level to maintain/gain weight or is this part of the whole adaptation thing and a period of low carb, higher fat will eventually switch things around and I can then maintain/gain without the higher carbs?
Cheers Robb.
Podcasts are amazing by the way
Great Stuff! I know that when I looked at carbs in proteins while eating straight Zone I was shocked at how many grams of carbs I was consuming. I think the block method intentionaly gets people from looking at how many calories and grams of carbs you are eating. It matters! Awesome stuff.
I’ve been playing with VLC for the past two months and have had some problems with my BMs. Are there any suggestions? Am I doing somethinng wrong? Also, can anybody suggest a good fat source besides almond butter, olive oil and avocados? I’m getting boired with them. Thanks for the help.
Good Stuff-thanks Robb
I own Cornwall Crossfit. Me and the other coach here (Kyle) have been following a very similar ‘ketogenic’ style of diet for about a month now.
We cut most carbs and ‘upped’ protein and fat. More fat than usual.
We are more ‘lifting’ based than ‘metcon’ based in general (as a gym).
We both started out feeling good with high energy. The high energy has only grown in the last 4 weeks. We are both much leaner and stronger.
Our metcon’s have taken a small hit – but this is due to the fact that we don’t do them as much, lol.
We cycle:
4-8 weeks: Olympic lifts / power lifting / weakness specific program.
then
4-8 weeks: Crossfit 4-5 day schedule.
These numbers seem loose but; it depends solely on the weakness(s) / goals of the person.
Long story short, Eating ‘CAVEMAN’ is very unstructured. We eat when we are hungry, we eat ‘a hunk-a-protein’ with some good fats and always choose veggies first.
What amazes me is how high my energy is when working out at 1:30 and not eating much except a couple of boiled eggs and some trail mix?? Crazy energy!!
Anyways, big thanks to Rob and Matt. The last 2 months of info related to post workout nutrition and ketogenic eating has been nothing short of ‘eye opening’. When my snatch PR goes up by 10 pounds in 3 weeks – I am a happy camper!!
Thanks again,
I have been something very similar. Straight Paleo with 50% cut carbs. Feel very good and continue to PR. I am a firefighter so my sleep habits get dicey so ive upped my intake of Fish Oil, Coconut Oil and Alpha Lipoic Acid and I feel great!
I started off on a 16 block Paleo/Zone and now I see myself eating about 26/7/23 ratio of Pro, Carb, Fat. I feel great, im really leaning out and I continue to PR.
I guess you just have to tinker until you figure out what works best.
Love the Blog Post
Can anyone point me to the Mat Lalonde post mentioned here?
Hey Robb !
Can you direct me to a post that explains why cereal grains are the devil? I am needing to share with a client and am just looking for something that breaks it down simply, but thoroughly. She’s just getting exposed to this info and I think if I just link her to your site she might be overwhelmed and not know where to start.
Thanks!
Did you happen to tape yourself before and after? Wondering if you expererienced a noticable decrease in BF. You stated you lost 2 lbs, just wondering. Thanks!
Just because I’m curious, I’d love to see a sampling of what he ate (I know meat and eggs-more specifically ) in the month. I’m guessing it would take some real creativity, something I lack at at times.
Love the blog and Podcast.
Could one avoid the expense and taste of veggies and provide alkalinity with lemon juice or apple cider vinegar?
Question for you Robb,
300-310lb patient history of 2 coronaries, heart surgery, CVD, type II, and acute costochondritis. On Paleo 7 weeks and showing improvments. However, blood tests show elevated microalbumin (urine). Could be CVD, liver, kidney disease as the cause—could the increased protein consumption stress his kidneys further (30-40% protein)? My instinct is no.. but I would like to know your thoughts?
Good stuff.
Robb, I know this is a family website but have you heard of anyone having problems with their libido while on a low carb diet? I have noticed that mine has gone down since dropping the carbs to 50-75/day. I love the way I feel on a low carb diet, except for that one thing of course…..
How could you not eventually have vitamin c deficiency if you are only eating meat and eggs?
Steve-
We might tackle this in a podcast at some point but till then read Good Calories Bad calories and read the following:
http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/1/1/2
Vit C, similar to most of the b vitamins appears to be necessary in larger amounts with carbohydrate intake.
Ian-
Have not ehard of that…try upping vit d to 5,000iu. Might try a tribulus product also.
Doc-
yeesh…I doubt it’s the protein intake. Did you have numbers before the change? This is the only way to really get a sense on that. If you do not see improvements in a month one could certainly drive the protein down a bit but the decreased inflammation and lower carb intake should improve kidney function.
Wes-
I don;t think so!
Shana-
This is pretty accessible:
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/definitive-guide-grains/
Coach Staley! here’s that link:
http://robbwolf.com/?p=782
Malecki-
Constipation? Usually folks shit like geese! Try some coconut milk. Drink plenty of water.
ChrisCFW-
I guess that just depends on your needs. We DO see people lean out but maintain strength. Not a bad thing with that!
Thalin!
Ciao!! I don;t put much stock in the thyroid down-regulation. If this was legit we would see the whole inuit population historically with hypothyroidism.
Patrick-
I like it.
Stick with the bicarb, and yes.
Nate-
that is a good question…will try to get that soon.
Tami-
VLCD was when I had my best BJJ. interesting stuff.
Richard-
this si the next HQ gambit: Discredit Paleo by making it all about gluttony. Brilliant.
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[...] December 7, 2009 at 10:07 pm · Filed under Diet and Nutrition Today Robb Wolf shared an email from one of his subscribers that provided interesting (and very positive!) results from a CrossFitter who adopted a very low carbohydrate (VLC) diet while continuing to CrossFit regularly. He measured progress both in terms of leaner body composition as well as his power output on benchmark CrossFit workouts including “Helen” and “Annie” and others. You can read the full story (along with Robb’s insightful commentary) by clicking here. [...]
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